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 Jancoran wrote:
oops. I thought it was in my signature. sawee.
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/04/new-tau-pathfinders.html

One major thing you're overlooking is the high price of rail rifles. Two rail rifles costs as much as a crisis suit with two plasma rifles, and the crisis suit is a much better platform for those guns. Meanwhile you're giving up the one unique thing that Pathfinders do, mass cost-effective markerlights.

I can imagne that now the devilfish will be more popular with pathfinders now, I personally am going to try a 3-fish set-up, protecting my warriors and having a fish for the pathfinders to get some ground, and have a sniper drone team to try picking down anti-tank infantry.

My anti-armor will mostly be Broadsides and Crisis suits, and seeker missiles for whatever i can mark.
( yeah i like the system with the seeker missiles can ignore cover, and being a str 8 ap3 that is resolved at BS5 and dont count toward the weapons fired on vehicles, and the fish can have 2 and shoot them even without a mark )

Correct.

The blog was written to be informative on their uses, BUT they also perfectly reflect the mobile force deployment that I have always liked Tau for. My battle fields always end looking like we came from all directions. I've not played a gunline version (except for one specialized tournament that I went to) in like 6 years.

As the blog mentions, you will have pinpoint accuracy in your deployment and a way to ensure the safety of those arriving.


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 Peregrine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
oops. I thought it was in my signature. sawee.
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/04/new-tau-pathfinders.html

One major thing you're overlooking is the high price of rail rifles. Two rail rifles costs as much as a crisis suit with two plasma rifles, and the crisis suit is a much better platform for those guns. Meanwhile you're giving up the one unique thing that Pathfinders do, mass cost-effective markerlights.

Did you even read the article?

And for the record, the markerlights are NOT the best thing about them anymore. Pathfindersd are T3, 5+ saves...instead of T4, 4+ saves. If you rely on Pathfinders for their markerlights rather than getting them elsewhere in the list, you're probably not going to like the results as much.

And no one "overlooked" the cost of the mini-meltas.

 Jancoran wrote:

And no one "overlooked" the cost of the mini-meltas.

Mini-meltas? What? Where?

 Jancoran wrote:
Did you even read the article?

I read it. You spent a lot of time talking about how great their special weapons are, when in reality they're overpriced and ineffective compared to crisis suits.

And for the record, the markerlights are NOT the best thing about them anymore. Pathfindersd are T3, 5+ saves...instead of T4, 4+ saves. If you rely on Pathfinders for their markerlights rather than getting them elsewhere in the list, you're probably not going to like the results as much.

T3/5+, but you can have more of them than you have marker drones (unless you skip the drone controller commander and leave them at BS 2). In terms of pure point and FOC slot efficiency Pathfinders still win.

And even if you care more about their homing beacon ability than the markerlights the markerlights are still better than throwing away points on the upgrade weapons.

I agree with Peregrine, marker drones are only more effective if you take a shas'o with a drone controller to make them BS5, unit to unit, without buffs, the pathfinders are better, you also need to understand that whilst a 5+ save is bad, it's not the end of the world, sure there's stuff that ignores cover but heavy flamers would roast normal tau anyway, and from normal fire i'd be looking to get these pathfinders in some ruins to make get that 4+ and light targets up with the support of a few ion rifles to weaken the squad down. I think Ion rifles are better as they provide a blast option, it makes the rail rifles look too expensive for me as I wouldn't want 5+ save models getting too close, 15 points for a 50/50 chance to hit just doesn't work for me, IG veterans get a better price on their melta, and their BS4.

Pathfinders will still be the main source of markerlights for me, my commander is benefitting a plasma/TL fusion squad with tank hunters/Monster hunter so i can deal with the big hitters, he is also useful in adding survivability to the squad with T5/2+ as he can take a hit from Lascannons and the like.

I agree with the OP in that markerlights seem to be central to the new dex. Where we diverge is that I am happy about this. Losing the compulsory devilfish on pathfinder teams is my favourite thing about the new dex.

I always loved the idea of Tau units 'helping' each other and many of the new rules seem to be reinforcing the idea of collectivism which I really like. But I can see how this would be annoying if you have ditched the idea of markerlights, like many would have done in response to the terribly uncompetitive previous codex.

The OPs point on the S8 broadside nerf is also a very good one - tbh this was the first negative thing that jumped out of the codex for me... to an extent balanced by having an 18' range fusion blaster. However you're right this isn't the same as blowing up a land raider from your table edge.

My view on this is that AV13/14 spam is going to be a rock to my Tau scissors to an extent, a bit annoying yes but we got better at doing alot of other things.. can't wait to face a horde army, and with so much rending ability we should be very capable of dealing with 2+ and 3+ save armies. Our ability to take out light vehices has definitely increased with cheaper crisis suits.

 troy_tempest wrote:
I agree with the OP in that markerlights seem to be central to the new dex. Where we diverge is that I am happy about this. Losing the compulsory devilfish on pathfinder teams is my favourite thing about the new dex.

I always loved the idea of Tau units 'helping' each other and many of the new rules seem to be reinforcing the idea of collectivism which I really like. But I can see how this would be annoying if you have ditched the idea of markerlights, like many would have done in response to the terribly uncompetitive previous codex.

My main concern with this is that new Tau armies will pretty much look the same, and probably play the same. There are lot of options, but maybe not that many Options.

 troy_tempest wrote:

The OPs point on the S8 broadside nerf is also a very good one - tbh this was the first negative thing that jumped out of the codex for me... to an extent balanced by having an 18' range fusion blaster. However you're right this isn't the same as blowing up a land raider from your table edge.

My view on this is that AV13/14 spam is going to be a rock to my Tau scissors to an extent, a bit annoying yes but we got better at doing alot of other things.. can't wait to face a horde army, and with so much rending ability we should be very capable of dealing with 2+ and 3+ save armies. Our ability to take out light vehices has definitely increased with cheaper crisis suits.

I don't have problem with Broadside nerf as such, but the army's internal balance is now skewed in a way which is in strange conflict with well estabilished background of the army. Of course there are other armies with similar limitations, but they are explained with their lore limitations (Orks, Tyranids). Tau feel like they COULD build really powerful guns, but don't really bother because they like the challenge of getting close & shooting it with Fusion blaster. It's much more sporting than mass Railgun fire!

Backfire wrote:

 gr1m_dan wrote:
Gpfunk has it spot on.

Instead of spending the last week moaning Backfire why don't you actually get loads of games in and post the reports and how you felt units did instead of "this sucks because of this" etc.

I don't need to. I can read rules, you know. Honestly, you just don't get it: this is not about some stat nerf or price increase, this is about missing rules which were essential in playing the vehicles. It's like if Orks lost Furious charge and Mob rules. You don't NEED to take test games to realize that the army has become something totally different and does not work like the old army and if you loved playing Green Tide, then it does not matter how good Killa Kans or Big Gunz had become, the army you liked is unviable.

Is it bad that I really liked the idea of relying on markerlight spam?

I guess that's my meta...


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Backfire wrote:


I don't have problem with Broadside nerf as such, but the army's internal balance is now skewed in a way which is in strange conflict with well estabilished background of the army. Of course there are other armies with similar limitations, but they are explained with their lore limitations (Orks, Tyranids). Tau feel like they COULD build really powerful guns, but don't really bother because they like the challenge of getting close & shooting it with Fusion blaster. It's much more sporting than mass Railgun fire!

I get you here.

I was a bit miffed when they were only S8AP1. I think if they're going to force them to be, they could at least allow them to be two-shot instead of Twin-linked.

I think 3x Tau Broadsides shooting 6 S8AP1 shots, along with 12 S5AP5 shots (Ignoring Cover) and 12 S7AP4 (Markerlight) shots at a Flyer would feel really gratifying.

I also kinda wish that tau had some kind of access to an IC that was a battlesuit Shas'vre, or rather, that Bodyguards were IC (or like wolf guard - can join a squad.) I can think of a few uses for this - sit them in a squad of drones (12+2, 6 markerlights to deal with that hindrance.) with a drone-controller and a Puretide engram Chip behind an ADL, - with an Autocannon.

They'll ruin most flyers, and it'd only cost 347 points - you'll get full anti-flyer as well as Markerlight capabilities, in a 15 unit blob that is also capable of moving quickly and thrusting away from a bad situation. You could even give the Shas'vre a Fusion gun to deal with close tank responses.

I totally get the PF as special weapons team concept now - I'll be trying out a squad or two kitted with Rail Rifles myself in a few games to see how they do. I still feel like Marker Drones (spread across squads) or Tetras are the way to go for massed Markerlight support though. Depends on how FW FAQs them, once they get around to it.

I also understand why so many people are pissed about losing the S10 rails on Broadsides. It doesn't really impact me, but given how prevalent the assumption is that foot gunline Tau are the default build, I can totally see why people are so frustrated. Since I've never taken a Railgun in any Tau list I've played, and have always gone heavy mech, I've always depended on my Crisis with Fusion to take care of any heavy mech. I still feel that's a viable option, and even more so this edition, where Riptides / Ionheads can drop AP2 / AP3 pieplates on whatever comes out of that tasty transport. Surviving the aftermath of popping a LR is a lot more possible when you can drop 2+ cover ignoring low AP pieplates on whatever comes out. Oh, and the additional FB range is nice too.

I also feel that EMP grenades are a viable counter - moreso in a foot list than in a Mech list, for obvious reasons. With a Mech list you'll have to set things up a turn in advance, which is dicey, but can be doable I think. Time will tell though.

Veskrashen wrote:
I totally get the PF as special weapons team concept now - I'll be trying out a squad or two kitted with Rail Rifles myself in a few games to see how they do. I still feel like Marker Drones (spread across squads) or Tetras are the way to go for massed Markerlight support though. Depends on how FW FAQs them, once they get around to it.

I also understand why so many people are pissed about losing the S10 rails on Broadsides. It doesn't really impact me, but given how prevalent the assumption is that foot gunline Tau are the default build, I can totally see why people are so frustrated. Since I've never taken a Railgun in any Tau list I've played, and have always gone heavy mech, I've always depended on my Crisis with Fusion to take care of any heavy mech. I still feel that's a viable option, and even more so this edition, where Riptides / Ionheads can drop AP2 / AP3 pieplates on whatever comes out of that tasty transport. Surviving the aftermath of popping a LR is a lot more possible when you can drop 2+ cover ignoring low AP pieplates on whatever comes out. Oh, and the additional FB range is nice too.

I also feel that EMP grenades are a viable counter - moreso in a foot list than in a Mech list, for obvious reasons. With a Mech list you'll have to set things up a turn in advance, which is dicey, but can be doable I think. Time will tell though.

I've made some really really really cool builds mixing Gunline Tau with Drone Spam.

Drones are an excellent way to spam Markerlights, if you're willing to fork out for the commander to go with them (Painful, I know. But it can work. Let's have a look.)

In my list, I take no Flyers, no Broadsides, and I'm considering dropping my Hammerheads. The riptide's novacharge can be awesome enough as it is. (I am very content with S9AP2, Ordnance with re-rolls on a BS3+3ML model - my list allows you to spam out enough ML to deal with the first blood points.)

My small, finalised Drone squad is:

Commander, MSSS, NSJ (Just 'cos. I think this is the best Signature system in the book.), Drone Controller, 2x missile/Markerlight drones Drones

I also take 2 FB (or FB/PR if this is illegal. We'll see) and a Target Lock if I have points.

I then take 12 Drones, 6 Markerlight and 6 either shield or gun drone, although this would actually work with 12 markerlights.

Stick this behind an ADL, let a shield drone (just for the fact that it's outrageous) use the gun, if it intercepts, it ignores cover and is BS5 thanks to the commander. Otherwise, it's an incredible firepower base for the same reasons. This also gives your little drone squad some protection - you could also crowd firewarrior squads in there if need be.

note that should you have to move out to markerlight (at 36" range, this is unlikely), you can do so without firing snap shots - you're relentless, after all!

Reason to take either, or. (6x):
- Gun Drones if you'll be lacking in Fire warriors and think 6 extra pulse rifles will do your backline well
- Shield Drones if you'll be leaving your commander behind, alone. (I do not recommend this, as this unit should be used to support other units.)
- Markerlight Drones: The idea behind the new Tau is Concentration. IT isn't about spamming out good units that can fight efficiently on their own (Read: SW, DE to some extent.) It's about spamming out the mediocre units you have, and making something of them. This makes Markerlights very important (They drastically increase accuracy and ignore cover.) as 14 markerlights will usually hit 12 times, and 12 markerlights is enough to give 3 squads BS5 and ignores cover.

Couple this with a Hammerhead, a riptide and a Stealth or XV8 squad, and you have an almost guaranteed kill.

The problem of having S7/8 spam isn't as bad as people seem to think; AV14 isn't as prevalent as it was, LR being the only Viable AV14 model that is continually used. The trick note with LR is that they usually have to charge you, to disgorge a unit or to simply get into fething range. - when something is shooting at you at 12" range (or, at a stretch, 24"), you seem to forget that your Fusion blasters, as a rule, have a melta threat radius of 21". 2 of them, markerlighted with full BS bonus and Ignores Cover, is more than enough to put a cramp on a land raider's style.

You also all forget that you have fething haywire grenades. Sure they make a fire warrior 11 points, but think about this: 6 fire warriors will hit a Dreadnought on a 4+, 3 will hit, 2 will glance and 1 has a chance of penning or doing nothing. If you have a squad of 9 fire warriors (99 points with EMP), they will systematically destroy your Dreadnought.

9 fire warriors also wreck a land raider in combat. hitting on 3's, they get 6 hits, 4 glances and a pen. - sure, the squad inside will slaughter your fire-warriors. Oh, what's that? your Firewarriors cost exactly 5% of your 2k army? they managed to destroy a 15% cost unit, with ease?

Some things to think about:
Drone squad/commander drones
EMP grenades.

A further note on EMP grenades:

If you really want to go for the whole Alpha "I need to kill this unit" kinda tactic, consider a Markerlight drone squad with a commander, then 3x Stealth suits with 2x FG and Target locks (that way, you can target with all 6 fusion guns, get the +BS/Cover bonus, while still bringing 48 burst cannon shots at other units. )

You don't need Long Range S10AP1 spam. You need to forget your conception that Tau should never enter close combat.

All these threads are starting to look like "Glass half full, half empty, debates".

I dont understand how Tau players are so fearful of AV13/AV14...

AV13 Vehicles that are actually scary?
Soulgrinder, Annihilation Barge, Command Barge, Furioso.

AV14?
Land Raider.

You have 18" Fusion Blasters that you can easily TL and put on suits that can move 12". This gives you an effective melta range of 21". If you do the math that 21" will outrange the average assault distance of a LR-borne unit. It also means you can jump to kill things like Furiosos/SGs/Command Barges, before they get into your lines. Annihilation Barges pose something of a threat, but their shooting isn't backbreaking. Efficient as they may be, they will struggle to bring down large numbers of infantry.

^ Not exactly, as the jump movement comes after the shooting phase.

But DS is always possible, if unreliable.

Edit for ignorance, lol.

LValx wrote:
... ? Jetpacks can move 12" in the movement phase then move 2d6 in assault. A unit of 3 Crisis Suits with TL Fusion guns should be able to reliably neuter an LR. If you are really worried you can even give them double Fusion blasters. Either way, 12" movement + 9" melta range is 21" threat radius. If I brought an LR, i'd be quite worried.

Jet Pack units can only move 6". Or 12" if they are Beasts/Cavalry.

That definitely makes it a bit worse. But, I still wouldnt be overly stressed about a LR. Kroot are fantastic bubble wrap that will get easily killed by any LR-borne assault units. Then you can simply shoot the unit down. Most Tau units should be able to take down units of Terminators that are close to their lines pretty easily.

LValx wrote:
That definitely makes it a bit worse. But, I still wouldnt be overly stressed about a LR. Kroot are fantastic bubble wrap that will get easily killed by any LR-borne assault units. Then you can simply shoot the unit down. Most Tau units should be able to take down units of Terminators that are close to their lines pretty easily.

The problem is the LR itself, and not its cargo. A Redeemer can wreak havoc with its two super-flamers, the Crusader can kill the FWs and (more importantly) the Pathfinders and the Phobos can ID Broadsides and Crisis suits (and harass Riptides). Assault is dead idea against a good Tau army, but disruptive units (like LRs) can make it fall apart like a house of cards.

Yeah, but the LR would need to get quite close for it to be using flamers or hurricane Bolters to good effect, at which point those 18" Melta weapons can really do a number. For what it's worth the Riptide can also help with his Smash attacks.

I don't think the guns of a LR should be too threatening unless they are of the DA Banner variety, but there are also differing opinions on how the Banner effects the Hurricane Bolters.

I can see why people would be concerned, but the fact is that the Tau are no worse equipped to handle a LR than most other armies. Orks have it rough, Nids have to rely on assault, Daemons have to rely on assault, most imperial armies have to use Meltaguns that are 12", Eldar have to use short ranged Melta. The only army I can think of that simply abuses LRs at any range are Crons and that is really only if they decide to take Haywire Crypteks. I suppose Manticores can do it pretty well also, but they have to rely on rolling a 6 and actually hitting the LR with a scatter.

I find that losing the S10 AP1 on Broadsides isn't so bad. If you really think about it, having a 72" range TL slaughterer of vehicles IS a little much. Other armies don't really have anything to compare. All this means is that, as said above, Longstrike in a Railhead and TL Fusion Blasters on suits are the key for heavy anti-armour. And a Riptide with a Nova Charged Ion Accelerator is MADNESS.

Also, markerlights are amazing, makes average BS almost irrelevant. Yeah, there isn;t necessarily a cheap or easy way to spam them, but isn't the point of spamming to remove other elements of your army to take too much of something else?

I've been having some pretty good times with the new 'dex. It offers a lot more variety than the old one in 6th ed. I think we'll always miss S10 Railsides, but that was one of the only good (broken) things in a fairly sub-par (broken) book. Now we have so much CHOICE! I haven't had this much fun with my Tau since I first used my lovely (definitely so, so broken) Broadsides years ago.

And Broadsides are still amazing... 65 Pts for 4TL str7 and 4TL str5 ignore cover and BLOS is quite good!

 Jakoto wrote:
I find that losing the S10 AP1 on Broadsides isn't so bad. If you really think about it, having a 72" range TL slaughterer of vehicles IS a little much. Other armies don't really have anything to compare.

*cough* Bastion-Breacher Shells *cough*

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Jakoto wrote:
I find that losing the S10 AP1 on Broadsides isn't so bad. If you really think about it, having a 72" range TL slaughterer of vehicles IS a little much. Other armies don't really have anything to compare.

*cough* Bastion-Breacher Shells *cough*

Yeah but those can be inaccurate as hell. And dont have an option for skyfiring. The Str10 on Broadsides would have been really, really rough on anyone taking a Flyer as AP1 has such a good chance of outright killing things. If they existed (Str10 Broadsides), I think i'd never even consider something like a Storm Raven again!

 AtoMaki wrote:
*cough* Bastion-Breacher Shells *cough*

Good point. But we still have the Longstrike Railhead. And 18" Meltas. I don't feel unfairly treated at all, I think Tau have become even more adept at being shooting-phase geniuses full of dirty tricks. Darkstrider+Grav-inhibitor; Skyfire/Interceptor EVERYTHING; Markerlights...all the time; Ethereals in a tight cluster of FW...the list goes on.

Garukadon wrote:
All these threads are starting to look like "Glass half full, half empty, debates".

It's definetely glass half empty!

Of course, it could have been avoided by making the glass full right from the start.

Backfire wrote:

Garukadon wrote:
All these threads are starting to look like "Glass half full, half empty, debates".

It's definetely glass half empty!

Of course, it could have been avoided by making the glass full right from the start.

When did this topic turn into another Codex: Baledrakes and Nurgle discussion? Or do I have a deja vu ?

LValx wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Jakoto wrote:
I find that losing the S10 AP1 on Broadsides isn't so bad. If you really think about it, having a 72" range TL slaughterer of vehicles IS a little much. Other armies don't really have anything to compare.

*cough* Bastion-Breacher Shells *cough*

Yeah but those can be inaccurate as hell. And dont have an option for skyfiring. The Str10 on Broadsides would have been really, really rough on anyone taking a Flyer as AP1 has such a good chance of outright killing things. If they existed (Str10 Broadsides), I think i'd never even consider something like a Storm Raven again!

S10Ap1 is not really that special when really start to think about it. One Railgun is roughly equivalent of two Lascannons. This means that AT power of three Railheads can be duplicated by just two Predator Annihilators (very roughly, please don't jump on that comparison). Most Imperial armies can (if they want) spam loads and loads of Lascannons, they're not restricted by just HS slots. They can also take Multi-meltas, which are even better than Tau Fusion blasters.

Of course in real world, not that many armies have even those six Lascannons as spamming them by the dozens gets too expensive. And I've always said I agree that having ability to spam squadrons of S10AP1 would have been destabilizing if combined to all crazy good stuff Tau got in the new book. But still, restrictions imposed to Tau in long-range AT fire department seem artificial. Most Imperial armies don't have such restrictions. Neither do Eldar or Deldar, they can take tons of Lances if they want.

Backfire wrote:


S10Ap1 is not really that special when really start to think about it. One Railgun is roughly equivalent of two Lascannons. This means that AT power of three Railheads can be duplicated by just two Predator Annihilators (very roughly, please don't jump on that comparison). Most Imperial armies can (if they want) spam loads and loads of Lascannons, they're not restricted by just HS slots. They can also take Multi-meltas, which are even better than Tau Fusion blasters.

Of course in real world, not that many armies have even those six Lascannons as spamming them by the dozens gets too expensive. And I've always said I agree that having ability to spam squadrons of S10AP1 would have been destabilizing if combined to all crazy good stuff Tau got in the new book. But still, restrictions imposed to Tau in long-range AT fire department seem artificial. Most Imperial armies don't have such restrictions. Neither do Eldar or Deldar, they can take tons of Lances if they want.

Maybe this is what is a sign whats comming up for the new dexes from now on? rarer str 10 ap 1 stuff, and general "nerfs" across the board the make the game balanced by putting most things down a notch?

If you have the slots (and Tau have good stuff in every slot), I could see taking 3 units of 4 Pathfinders. They give you all kinds of good options for very little cost. You can hold them back and use their Markerlights, you can put them forward as a speed bump to slow down a fast assaulter, you can Outflank them, which is really nice if you've got EMP grenades and/or Special Weapons.

This is an especially nice option if you try for Positional Relay shenanigans. Infiltrate a Stealth Team, make for the opposing board edge (should take just one turn), then your Pathfinders can Outflank from the rear of the enemy army. A squad of 4 with just Carbines and can actually do a number on a lot of objective holding Troops choices, but basically force a response, because you can't let guys with EMP grenades run around a fire base.

Long story short, though, is that you get 4 meaningful units that start at 44 points each. If you can't think of any number of fun things to do with their firepower, markerlights, or optional EMP grenades and special weapons, then you probably shouldn't be playing 40k.

Dracoknight wrote:

Backfire wrote:


S10Ap1 is not really that special when really start to think about it. One Railgun is roughly equivalent of two Lascannons. This means that AT power of three Railheads can be duplicated by just two Predator Annihilators (very roughly, please don't jump on that comparison). Most Imperial armies can (if they want) spam loads and loads of Lascannons, they're not restricted by just HS slots. They can also take Multi-meltas, which are even better than Tau Fusion blasters.

Of course in real world, not that many armies have even those six Lascannons as spamming them by the dozens gets too expensive. And I've always said I agree that having ability to spam squadrons of S10AP1 would have been destabilizing if combined to all crazy good stuff Tau got in the new book. But still, restrictions imposed to Tau in long-range AT fire department seem artificial. Most Imperial armies don't have such restrictions. Neither do Eldar or Deldar, they can take tons of Lances if they want.

Maybe this is what is a sign whats comming up for the new dexes from now on? rarer str 10 ap 1 stuff, and general "nerfs" across the board the make the game balanced by putting most things down a notch?

I've been thinking about this, and certainly there have been signs that the designers want to curb "inflation" which got real bad during worst days of Ward era books.

OTOH, Imperial codex which can spam most Lascannons for the cost is also the newest (Dark Angels).