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 Peregrine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
More than half the armies are NOT fearless however, so rushing to point out that a minority of lists will be immune to ONE of its cool tricks is...I guess... not that relevant to me.

It's not just fearless armies. LD 9/10 armies will rarely be pinned, and anything with a re-roll on pinning is pretty much immune. It's nice when pinning happens, but it's insane to build your army around it.

You get damage output, but the added benefit of making people stand still. No downside that I can see.

The downside is that you're taking sub-optimal choices just because they have pinning.

YOU say they are suboptimal. I say they are common. Pathfinders aren't uncommon. Gun Drones aren't uncommon and Sniper rifles are seriously NOT uncommon with Tau now.

Your trouble here is that you pretend like nothing ever works. But...actually... when faced with 5 or six morale checks...it does work once or twice. and thats a big momentum changer. So you can doom and gloom your way into beleiving whatever suits you... Or you can recognize that NO ONE said it will work all the time but that it most definitely can help your army.

 Jancoran wrote:
YOU say they are suboptimal. I say they are common. Pathfinders aren't uncommon. Gun Drones aren't uncommon and Sniper rifles are seriously NOT uncommon with Tau now.

Do you really not know the difference between taking good units that happen to have pinning and being happy if you get lucky and pin something and building a list around pinning?

Your trouble here is that you pretend like nothing ever works.

No, I just understand probability. Pinning happens, but it doesn't happen consistently.

But...actually... when faced with 5 or six morale checks...it does work once or twice.

Ok, so you're hitting a unit with 5-6 morale checks to pin it. Congratulations, you could have just killed it instead.

Or you can recognize that NO ONE said it will work all the time but that it most definitely can help your army.

Sorry, but "works consistently" is mandatory for something you're building your list around.

you're missing the point as usual. I didn't mean 5-6 on one UNIT. Good lord.

 Jancoran wrote:
you're missing the point as usual. I didn't mean 5-6 on one UNIT. Good lord.

So your plan is to split inefficient fire across multiple targets instead of focusing everything on a single target until it is dead or crippled? Sounds like a great plan if you enjoy losing.

PS: inflicting six pinning tests against LD 9 only gives you a 66% chance of successfully pinning a unit.

No, my NEW plan is to ignore Peregrine posts.

No one wants to read this back and forth anymore. Of that I am sure.

Peregrine is just trolling, his faulty logic of statistic only lead me to go with the line: "only 99% chance of succeeding? you know that 1% might cost you the game? you better avoid it like the plague!"

Fair enuf. he's on my ignore list. Did you know you can click on someones name and then on the left it gives you that option. I LITERALLY will never see another post of his. I didn't even know you could do that until tonight. =)

Now he can say all the mean nasty things he wants to and I'll never know; but on the plus side...I'll never know!

Yes, completely ignoring someone's posts is an excellent way to "win" an argument... except it's not. Whenever Peregrine refuted one of your points, you dodged it and started talking about something else.

We're still waiting for that list that doesn't care about lascannons.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes, completely ignoring someone's posts is an excellent way to "win" an argument... except it's not. Whenever Peregrine refuted one of your points, you dodged it and started talking about something else.

We're still waiting for that list that doesn't care about lascannons.

He also ignored my comments up there regarding his 'Immune to Lascannon list' with 117, models, it has 79 models, let alone 117, and there are units in there which can suffer heavily from lascannons (e.g Broadsides getting ID'd, Devilfish carrying 6 FWs, which will probably get pinned after the explosion and be useless). If you're trying to put forward a good argument, you should at least back up your points rather than ignoring other people when they question it.

Maybe he's just a troll and you guys are all feeding him.

 Redbeard wrote:
Maybe he's just a troll and you guys are all feeding him.

Who? Jancoran?

Dracoknight wrote:
Peregrine is just trolling, his faulty logic of statistic only lead me to go with the line: "only 99% chance of succeeding? you know that 1% might cost you the game? you better avoid it like the plague!"

I think Peregrine is one of the more tactically minded people on this site. One of the few people who uses logic at all. The posts all have valid points. There not this hyperbolic drivel that you seem to think they are. I for one also choose to take lists that perform consistently all the time rather than relying on mechanics such as pinning which work great a very tiny portion of the time.

At least Peregrine doesn't spout off the basics of war gaming, like movement and diversion units, as some kind of scared doctrine that only he has mastered. Jancoran routinely makes claims that units that are usually considered to be poor and tactics that are viewed as disadvantageous have given him amazing results. When asked to back up claims he shyly backs away and says "tactics" like its a magical word that normal players don't understand.

Peregrine may be wrong on a few things, but at least he defends and backs up what he says, and that is not trolling behavior.


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Also I find it funny that he didn't post up the lascannons proof list (I know he doesn't mean lascannon proof, its just easier to say) but posted up an older 5th Ed list when he only claimed he didn't want to post non-essential stuff in the thread and then posted links to another list and battle report.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes, completely ignoring someone's posts is an excellent way to "win" an argument... except it's not. Whenever Peregrine refuted one of your points, you dodged it and started talking about something else.

We're still waiting for that list that doesn't care about lascannons.

He didn't refute anything with any substance and he's like this all the time.

You'll be waiting a while for that list, for the reasons I gave. If you want lists, go to the list thread. maybe you'll see it there. Or maybe see the Batrep. You'll probably see it there soon also.

And no ones trying to "win". So it's really okay if he thinks I "lost". I'm comfortable with that delusion if he is, but there was nothing to win or lose. Either you GOT that 117 models makes Lascannons qual to pinpricks... or you didn't.



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 Savageconvoy wrote:
At least Peregrine doesn't spout off the basics of war gaming, like movement and diversion units, as some kind of scared doctrine that only he has mastered. Jancoran routinely makes claims that units that are usually considered to be poor and tactics that are viewed as disadvantageous have given him amazing results. When asked to back up claims he shyly backs away and says "tactics" like its a magical word that normal players don't understand.

Peregrine may be wrong on a few things, but at least he defends and backs up what he says, and that is not trolling behavior.


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Also I find it funny that he didn't post up the lascannons proof list (I know he doesn't mean lascannon proof, its just easier to say) but posted up an older 5th Ed list when he only claimed he didn't want to post non-essential stuff in the thread and then posted links to another list and battle report.

Revisionist history.

ACTUALLY what I did was responded to someone who specifically asked about Batreps using my old list "to back up" some of these claims of past success. There are more of them there as well. It was just an example, since we WERE talking about MECH being big in 5th at that point in the discussion and this happened to be a report against...havy mech! Thats what ACTUALLY happened SavageConvoy. But this is what happens when a thread gets derailed and splits. Im not going to make it worse by turning it into a list critique session. Like i said: lots of threads for that and it'll be in one of them soon enough.

ANYWAY...

Tau is an army of support. You can't make one gun worthless unless you take all FW, Kroot, and Sniper Teams. And to be honest, that list would not do that bad. The only way it could suffer is against AV13/14, and even them you could just throw in Shadowsun and a Stealth team with Fusion Blasters and just infiltrate.

Nothing in the Tau codex is "bad." Everything has its place in certain lists. For instance, instead of filling the HS slot with broadsides and hammerheads, you could take Sniper teams, full on marksmen and drones. That's 9 BS5 markerlights and some ridiculous sniping. Then you could fill out the list with a farsight bomb with Shadowsun and troll your enemy's deployment zone.

Alternatively, you could take Stealthsuits, Shadowsun, and tons of kroot, and infiltrate everything. Believe it or not, kroot don't suck, mainly because they afford you the ability to get to objectives that are across the board quickly. If you opponent places an objective on the middle of the board, suddenly you have kroot there.

You can do a whole lot with the new Tau, and I think it's pretty cool.

 McNinja wrote:
ANYWAY...

Tau is an army of support. You can't make one gun worthless unless you take all FW, Kroot, and Sniper Teams. And to be honest, that list would not do that bad. The only way it could suffer is against AV13/14, and even them you could just throw in Shadowsun and a Stealth team with Fusion Blasters and just infiltrate.

Nothing in the Tau codex is "bad." Everything has its place in certain lists. For instance, instead of filling the HS slot with broadsides and hammerheads, you could take Sniper teams, full on marksmen and drones. That's 9 BS5 markerlights and some ridiculous sniping. Then you could fill out the list with a farsight bomb with Shadowsun and troll your enemy's deployment zone.

Alternatively, you could take Stealthsuits, Shadowsun, and tons of kroot, and infiltrate everything. Believe it or not, kroot don't suck, mainly because they afford you the ability to get to objectives that are across the board quickly. If you opponent places an objective on the middle of the board, suddenly you have kroot there.

You can do a whole lot with the new Tau, and I think it's pretty cool.

You can acheive enormous model counts with very good units in this codex. The variety now available in EFFECTIVE builds has increased even further and of course, the fun factor of using flyers and the Riptides and such is going to be really worthwhile.

Played my second game with the "pedestrian" list I did the batrep on. I ran out of time to pack stuff up and decided to just play the same list again this time against a hardcore Mephiston led Blood Angels foe. 4 Assault Squads, pair of Furiosos, Storm Raven... you know the type.

Riptides were superheroes. Long live intercept!!!

I can't wait to try out the flyer. Flyers require that you protect them by ending the Aegis Gun and other anti-aircraft as soon as you can and then use your air superiority to really punch face (and str 8 large blasts can do that), which makes for a very different list.

Then you can build the huge army I am, a vrsion of which I plyed in 5th Edition. That list is going to have a serious amount of Dakka. Endless streams of pulse weaponry with deadly accuracy, punctuated with deadly Fusion Blasters to take out the truly powerful stuff and JUST enough havy stuff for First Blood/Anti-air.

You can even play the old traditional Crisis Suit overload type forced. 5 Crisis teams running around is no joke, especially at their new prices. You have to like the adaptability of the Crisis Suits now. They can be very affordable. I own 20 of the damn models and really have only fielded them all together one time at a tourney I travelled to in Georgia (they were pretty okay even then but just too few shots against some armies so I went 3-1-1).

But now I mean, you can run around with TL Flamer suits and a couple protective Drones, call it a day. You can send in Fusion+Flamer suits for a mere 126 points. Very reasonable for a Deep Striking assassin type of unit.

I wonder if people will still try the 9 Broadside lists. Seems like with all the punishing fire they can exert, they would be tried. 24 shots per unit is as good as Warwalkers basically, and a lot tougher (but a LOT less mobile). Add missile drones and its even more silly.

Dracoknight wrote:
Peregrine is just trolling, his faulty logic of statistic only lead me to go with the line: "only 99% chance of succeeding? you know that 1% might cost you the game? you better avoid it like the plague!"

Yeah, because "this is inconsistent and you have to invest tons of resources into it just to get anywhere near 50/50 odds" and "only 99% chance of success, better not use it" are the same thing.


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 Jancoran wrote:
Either you GOT that 117 models makes Lascannons qual to pinpricks... or you didn't.

Not that you're going to read it anyway, since you'd rather tell everyone how you blocked me than actually address any of my arguments, but I should correct your absurd argument for the benefit of anyone else who might read it and think you've got a good idea.

Having 117 guardsmen in my list does NOT magically make my vital artillery units (which I need to clear my opponent's scoring units off their objectives) immune to lascannons and allow me to ignore Vendettas. The fact that I can park a 100-man blob of infantry on my "home" objectives is nice, and lascannons aren't going to be doing very much to that blob. However, if I pretend that lascannons can't hurt me and ignore my opponent's Vendettas then those Vendettas will probably kill my artillery and we'll be stuck with a stalemate where I hold half the objectives but can't take the other half away from my opponent. That is, if my early loss of everything but the infantry blob to lascannon fire doesn't cost me the game entirely because I can no longer shoot back effectively against my opponent's anti-infantry units and stop them from wiping out my blob.

In short: the 117 models are probably not hurt badly by lascannons, but other things in your list probably are.

Having 117 guardsmen in my list does NOT magically make my vital artillery units (which I need to clear my opponent's scoring units off their objectives) immune to lascannons and allow me to ignore Vendettas. The fact that I can park a 100-man blob of infantry on my "home" objectives is nice, and lascannons aren't going to be doing very much to that blob. However, if I pretend that lascannons can't hurt me and ignore my opponent's Vendettas then those Vendettas will probably kill my artillery and we'll be stuck with a stalemate where I hold half the objectives but can't take the other half away from my opponent. That is, if my early loss of everything but the infantry blob to lascannon fire doesn't cost me the game entirely because I can no longer shoot back effectively against my opponent's anti-infantry units and stop them from wiping out my blob.

In short: the 117 models are probably not hurt badly by lascannons, but other things in your list probably are.

I don't know if you've seen an army this big, but 117 models carries a big foot print. I wonder where all those vendettas are going be placed and still be able to line up decent shots to their targets. Maybe the strategy isn't necessarily to avoid taking armored targets that the vendettas can strike, but to occupy enough of the board where it makes positioning said vendettas a difficult chore. Or better yet, combo those tactics together? Lastly, bring it down works pretty good vs. flyers, but most infantry horde IG armies I've seen are packing sabers...which makes most flyers cry. :shrug:

Sabre platorms are a great example of what I dont like about ForgeWorld.

But then, remember, the finalist at the BAO had 6 straight wins, featuring a ton of them. But in the end he still lost to an essentially close combat army with flamerss.

BUT.. He DId win 6 in a row to get there. In any NORMAL tournament, where you don't NEEd to win 6 in a row, that is going to bring home the gold. And if the enemy doesn't have flyers, its not useless.

As far as Tau go, taking flyers without killing those Sabres first would be a very bad idea.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
I don't know if you've seen an army this big, but 117 models carries a big foot print. I wonder where all those vendettas are going be placed and still be able to line up decent shots to their targets. Maybe the strategy isn't necessarily to avoid taking armored targets that the vendettas can strike, but to occupy enough of the board where it makes positioning said vendettas a difficult chore. Or better yet, combo those tactics together? Lastly, bring it down works pretty good vs. flyers, but most infantry horde IG armies I've seen are packing sabers...which makes most flyers cry. :shrug:

I'm not saying that the 117 models are weak, or that Vendettas are auto-win, I'm saying that you can't just ignore lascannons because you have 117 models. Even with 117 models you probably (certainly, if you're playing Tau) have other models that are vulnerable to lascannons in your game plan.


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 Jancoran wrote:
Sabre platorms are a great example of what I dont like about ForgeWorld.

Yeah, because FW are the only ones printing overpowered units and nobody has ever won six games in a row at a tournament using overpowered codex units...

Well i have to excuse myself to Peregrine, mostly because i get a bit grumpy with folks i see as rather negative.

Personally having "side-effects" such as pinning is not that bad if it works like 50% of the time, but relying on it is bad tactics regardless of the numbers, which was the point i was missing pointing out.

As for Lascannons i think the most "gimmicky" but yet good way of getting rid of those is by using snipers/characters for a precision shot and take out their Lascannon carrier, or otherwise just try to totally annahilate the unit, ignoring it might be too dangerous in too many situations.

Dracoknight wrote:
Well i have to excuse myself to Peregrine, mostly because i get a bit grumpy with folks i see as rather negative.

Personally having "side-effects" such as pinning is not that bad if it works like 50% of the time, but relying on it is bad tactics regardless of the numbers, which was the point i was missing pointing out.

As for Lascannons i think the most "gimmicky" but yet good way of getting rid of those is by using snipers/characters for a precision shot and take out their Lascannon carrier, or otherwise just try to totally annahilate the unit, ignoring it might be too dangerous in too many situations.

Exactly. A Lascannon can't do much to a 20 Kroot blob, but it can do quite a bit to a 3 man crisis team.

Keep in mind that a Commander with Iridium armor can easily take the front spot of a Crisis or Broadside unit, rendering it more-or-less immune to lascannons in any practical sense.

 Kingsley wrote:
Keep in mind that a Commander with Iridium armor can easily take the front spot of a Crisis or Broadside unit, rendering it more-or-less immune to lascannons in any practical sense.

How is it "immune" when we're talking about a weapon that wounds on a 2+ with no armor saves allowed? Removing the instant death effect is not trivial, but it's not even close to the same as making the unit no longer care about lascannons.

And let's not forget the problems with this strategy: commanders are expensive (so you might be better off just accepting instant death and bringing more normal models to replace the dead ones), and they tend to carry important support systems that you don't want to be the first in line to die.

 McNinja wrote:

Exactly. A Lascannon can't do much to a 20 Kroot blob, but it can do quite a bit to a 3 man crisis team.

I'd also point out hat it isn't really whether it can kill something. It's whether that something was so important that its death is a differnce maker.

If you kill the Skyray, and the dude has no flyters... Well... Yerah i mean its a bummer and all buuuuut... It's loss won't play a central role in the long run.

Losing a Tactical Squad you needed toscore? Now THAT matters. Maybe not so much other things.

In my last game I threw my Commander and Riptide's life into peril in order to make certain that I could move two Fire Warrior units to the Western objective. i knew it could be the end of both, given they tangled with Terminators, but it had to be done and while their loss would have been regrettable (The Commander did die, quickly because I didn't realize his last termie was his sergeant and so I was unable to challenge Corbulo) it wasn't so regrettable that I wasn't willing to do it.

Heck I gave myself wounds all game long trying to ue the Nova Reactor. So Some units are just flat out expendable if the benefit exceeds the cost, and with Riptides: it does.

 Peregrine wrote:
How is it "immune" when we're talking about a weapon that wounds on a 2+ with no armor saves allowed? Removing the instant death effect is not trivial, but it's not even close to the same as making the unit no longer care about lascannons.

It can tank them and not care? When lascannons go from "remove a model on a failed cover save" to "remove a model following 4 failed cover saves and maybe FNPs too" things get pretty different. An Iridium commander is so good against lascannons that in most cases shooting lascannons at such a unit isn't even worth it-- their effect is almost totally mitigated.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
How is it "immune" when we're talking about a weapon that wounds on a 2+ with no armor saves allowed? Removing the instant death effect is not trivial, but it's not even close to the same as making the unit no longer care about lascannons.

It can tank them and not care? When lascannons go from "remove a model on a failed cover save" to "remove a model following 4 failed cover saves and maybe FNPs too" things get pretty different. An Iridium commander is so good against lascannons that in most cases shooting lascannons at such a unit isn't even worth it-- their effect is almost totally mitigated.

I agree

And as I said before, if the Lascannons are killing my support but not hurting my troops, i'll generally take that trade. Troops win me the game, not supporting fire units. Lascannons are too pricey on most platforms for me to be too worried. Oblits pay a huge premium and have to switch. HWS pay a bunch, Devastators of all kinds do as well. The only platform that scares me at all is the Vendetta, however my Broadsides would simply GTG (no skyfire upgrade) and then the drones would take their 3+ or 2+ depending on ruins or not.

 GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes, completely ignoring someone's posts is an excellent way to "win" an argument... except it's not. Whenever Peregrine refuted one of your points, you dodged it and started talking about something else.

We're still waiting for that list that doesn't care about lascannons.

He also ignored my comments up there regarding his 'Immune to Lascannon list' with 117, models, it has 79 models, let alone 117, and there are units in there which can suffer heavily from lascannons (e.g Broadsides getting ID'd, Devilfish carrying 6 FWs, which will probably get pinned after the explosion and be useless). If you're trying to put forward a good argument, you should at least back up your points rather than ignoring other people when they question it.

Except in the list as used with the old Pos.Relay. Those units are not on the board to be shot at till after turn 2 and come on in more or less the order need and were needed to deal with threats before they are a problem. Really you should look at some of the batreps of his and jazzypaintball. While not the strongest list, it is very good at disrupting most common tactics. I will say that my nid list runs around 90 models and really does not care to much about lascannons or vendettas. Yes they kill things but not in the numbers of something like a Manticore or Basilisk.


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 Kingsley wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
How is it "immune" when we're talking about a weapon that wounds on a 2+ with no armor saves allowed? Removing the instant death effect is not trivial, but it's not even close to the same as making the unit no longer care about lascannons.

It can tank them and not care? When lascannons go from "remove a model on a failed cover save" to "remove a model following 4 failed cover saves and maybe FNPs too" things get pretty different. An Iridium commander is so good against lascannons that in most cases shooting lascannons at such a unit isn't even worth it-- their effect is almost totally mitigated.

A lascannon bypasses iridium armor, so it is just as good as normal armor, you still need those drones to LOS! on too.

barnowl wrote:


A lascannon bypasses iridium armor, so it is just as good as normal armor, you still need those drones to LOS! on too.

The suit cant be ID though with T5 which is the point.

barnowl wrote:

Except in the list as used with the old Pos.Relay. Those units are not on the board to be shot at till after turn 2 and come on in more or less the order need and were needed to deal with threats before they are a problem. Really you should look at some of the batreps of his and jazzypaintball. While not the strongest list, it is very good at disrupting most common tactics. .

It served me well. Very very well. Glad to hear you read some of them.