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 Savageconvoy wrote:
The only situation it really helps is for 5+ hordes being left in the open during night fighting

And not very much even then. BCs only have 18" range, so the maximum cover bonus a target could get would be +1, and only in the last 6" of range.

Stealth suits have a place. They aren't a jaw-dropper unit, but they can give some flexibility that I can understand a player enjoying. Unfortunately I think they may be a little less useful now that people have moved to such an Infantry-focused "meta."

just for fun, lets look at suits with dual burst cannons and 6 drones.
I got 228 total for 6 burst cannons and 12 drones.
suits will get the same 24 shots and 12 hits.
Drones will get about 6 more for a total of 18 hits.
Even at volume of S5 fire the crisis suits look like a better deal.

I personally still think that the Piranha is the go to mass S5 firesupport unit. Troops and FA have plenty of sources of S5 while Elite slot would be better suited for the various suit and Riptide varients. Due to the high point cost and the FOC position, I still think they are more of a hinderance.

Thought TAs were cheaper back in the old days, ah well. Also, in order to take drones with the new version, you have to upgrade one of the suits to a 'Vre for 10pts, making it 214 for 14 hits. Still a lot more efficient.

Finally, you get those 14 hits for 214 and still have 6 support systems available to use. Doing so increases the total cost of the unit, of course, but adds additional capabilities.

Re: BSFs - they help against GEQ in cover during night fight as well. They also help with fusion against any target during night fight - those are shots you definitely want maximum effect on. Sure, if you're within melta range then it doesn't matter, but there's the 12-18" range band where it does, and being able to land hits past MEQ/TEQ in cover in later turns of the game is an advantage. And best of all it's free.

One of the main considerations is in fact the fact that they occupy the elite slot. They really seem to fit the fast attack slot better, but alas you work in the context provided.

I don't think that stealth suits are bad per se, but rather that they are not competitive with what you want out of your elite slots.

I get "enough" (can you really ever have enough firepower?) S5 firepower out of firewarriors. I don't feel the need to spend other slots getting it. On the otherhand, you have very minimal anti TEQ or anti AV out of the troops and fast attack slot.

Stealth suits are not a great choice (although I'd hesitate to call them bad, given a proper context) due to the opportunity cost of giving up a crisis suit team or Riptide.

 Dracos wrote:
One of the main considerations is in fact the fact that they occupy the elite slot. They really seem to fit the fast attack slot better, but alas you work in the context provided.

I don't think that stealth suits are bad per se, but rather that they are not competitive with what you want out of your elite slots.

I get "enough" (can you really ever have enough firepower?) S5 firepower out of firewarriors. I don't feel the need to spend other slots getting it. On the otherhand, you have very minimal anti TEQ or anti AV out of the troops and fast attack slot.

Stealth suits are not a great choice (although I'd hesitate to call them bad, given a proper context) due to the opportunity cost of giving up a crisis suit team or Riptide.

"What you want out of your elite slots" is highly dependent on the rest of your list and your playstyle. So, even if most people are probably better off using Riptides or Crisis, there is still reasons to take Stealths in the Elite slot. You're absolutely correct that you can get S5 AP5 by the bucketload in pretty much any FOC slot in the codex. There are only 3 units that can take Homing Beacons - Ethereals, Steaths and PFS - as well as only 3 units that can take Positional Relays - Crisis, Stealths and PFs. You can get both with either Stealths or PFs. Only 3 units have Infiltrate - Stealth, Kroots, and Shadowsun. If you need Infiltrating PosRel or Homing Beacon, a Stealth Suit unit is the only way to get it. If you want Deep Striking Homing Beacons, Stealths are the only way to get it. If you want Infiltrating Fusion Blasters then it's Shadowsun solo or with Stealths.

So again, it's more than just "what guns can I take in this slot and how efficiently does it kill things". There's other factors at play that may override the desire or conventional wisdom to use your Elite slots solely for Riptides and Crisis.

Lumipon wrote:
^ I agree.

Not being able to take drones on Stealth Suits is probably a bigger nerf than all the buffs they got.

A drone cloud was massively annoying and somewhat potent against DE. Immune to DL and not as vulnerable to poison, and could glance the vehicles to death, as they were made of paper and chewing gum.

But alas, you can only take 2 drones now (and only with the 'vre upgrade(?)), which makes every failed save a hefty loss.

And if you want durable S5 fire, you could take a Crisis with dual BC and a stim-injector for 57 points, but god knows why you would need something like that.

Stealthclouds were indeed awsome and highly uinderrated by many.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You say that the success with Stealthsuitsd cant be repeatable. I watched a guy use the exact build I told him to tonight and he rolled his IG opponent who had 3 Griffons, 2 Basilisks and 2 Demolishers in the list.

This has been done. It will be done again. Just not by SavageConvoy.. That's fine. Just try to understand that when you get beaten by it, it wasn't an illusion. and if you win with it (and you clearly haven't) that also will not be an illusion.

Well, okay, here's a counterpoint - I use Fire Warriors fairly effectively as long-range anti-tank and anti-flyer. They've taken down more rhinos, chimeras, IG artillery, russes, and flyers than my hammerheads ever have, all without ever using EMP grenades. Then again, the genius who I play against sometimes shows me av10 with those vehicles because I'm probably a hereditary predecessor to Creed (tactics lol). The damage and distraction my FW do, paired with their scoring ability, versatility, and great survivability (can g2g for 3+ cover in most cases) means that FW are my best flank harassers. With a devilfish, they even kick some booty against foot-borne MEQ types. And even still, when there's literally 150 termagants on the table against me, I'm probably going to lose every single time because getting through that many fearless fnp bodies is really not going to happen any time soon.

My current Tau list is 9-0, against 7 different Generals. In those games, KROOt have killed more vehicles than ANY of my other units (taken singularly). My last game, they blew a StormRaven out of the sky. My opponent was NOT amused.

So there are many ways to skin the cat. And that's what I am enjoying so much about the new Tau. Such diversity in how you can play them.

 Jancoran wrote:

You say that the success with Stealthsuitsd cant be repeatable. I watched a guy use the exact build I told him to tonight and he rolled his IG opponent who had 3 Griffons, 2 Basilisks and 2 Demolishers in the list.

Unless you're planning on sharing the details about what happened, including the list compositions and how the units performed, then your statement is useless. You just said that someone used stealth suits and won a game. Congrats. That has absolutely no tactical information in it, and again you're making a claim that sounds like stealth suits can be incredibly powerful without describing how they can be. It's entirely dishonest if you won't provide evidence of the claim outside of the anecdote.

This has been done. It will be done again. Just not by SavageConvoy.. That's fine. Just try to understand that when you get beaten by it, it wasn't an illusion. and if you win with it (and you clearly haven't) that also will not be an illusion.

that was an entirely pointless comment. You're making the same assumptions that I haven't used stealth suits or played against them. You make the claims that stealth suits are amazing and game winning, yet can't back it up. You tried to say that we just don't understand because we have to use tactics and strategy with them, like the entire game doesn't revolve around that and we have never heard of the concept. You refuse the experience of others, and won't even ask, but flaunt your own. You deny that averages even factor into this, and dishonestly gave weighted numbers in your examples by giving stealth suits BS5 and not granting the same to Kroot and ignoring effects like rending on sniper rifles. Really the only thing you've even put forward to try and support your claims is the assumption that I haven't tried them, I've never faced them, I haven't seen others use them, and I never asked how they worked for other people. You never even asked me, when I told you that I would provide an honest answer. But more importantly than my personal experience I've offered the comparisons and averages, I am attempting to provide evidence so that other players can look at the information and compare it for themselves to come to an informed conclusion. You have only offered the point that players try them, and if they don't work like you propose then they are using them wrong.

 Jancoran wrote:
My current Tau list is 9-0, against 7 different Generals. In those games, KROOt have killed more vehicles than ANY of my other units (taken singularly). My last game, they blew a StormRaven out of the sky. My opponent was NOT amused.

So there are many ways to skin the cat. And that's what I am enjoying so much about the new Tau. Such diversity in how you can play them.

I don't believe your story about the kroot unless your bring krootox. Without krootox you need something like 80 kroot shots to wreck a stormraven. And this is not a viable use for kroot. Stop using mathmatically extreme stories to attempt to prove poijts.

Okay I will give you the information on his game. As I have done the same kind of list I'll give you more than that.

Game was Kill Points. Tau sporting 3 Stealth units, 2 Stingwing units, some Broadsides and 3 Fire Warriors, 1 kroot. Drone swarm, commander, Ethereal,

Imperial Guard using Leman Russ's, Plasmaguard in chimeras, an IG blob , with Space Wolf allies. Allies were stationed at the edges, in anticipation of a heavy flank attack, which was inevitable of course. IG Lemans were ready to blast the Stealthsuits after their first turn. IG vets in the center so they could respond to either side depending on which side the Tau outflanked to. Drop Pod in reserve with, I think, Arjac and his buddies.

The stealth suits all infiltrated to one side, while the rest of the army was placed the opposite side entirely, pincer style. Stingwings were in reserve as were Kroot.

Rnd 1:
Space Wolves were wiped on the western flank by two of the Stealth units with Markerlight support. Third unit killed a Chimera and the Plasmavets tumbled out, pinned.
Broadsides knocked out a Chimera, no pinning.
First blood and Linebreaker acheived.

IG fired all their Large blasts at the Stealth teams. but they had retreated into large circles and cover made them nearly unkillable. Scatter was minimal, but costly, given how spread out they were able to be with no wolves in the way and no reprisal from the Vets possible. IG blob fired into the Stealthsuits as much as they could BUT basically the net result was, they killed half of the one squad and a couple drones from another. No shots were able to go downrange to the Broadsides etc... Drop pod did come in and Arjac and friends tried to kill the Broadsides with shooting.

In Round 2
The Stingwings dropped in and the Stealthsuits moved forward.Two Leman Russ's went down to Melta fire and a side shot from the Broadsides combined. The IG vets were killed to a man by the Fire warriors and the Kroot as well as the Stingwings.

Bit of bad luck, as the Ig landed a nice shot and obliterated the damaged Stealth unit. Blob got equally lucky, forcing another to run with just three casualties. Some Stingwings also got caught in the fire storm and went down, but they held. Overall a very good round for the IG. Arjac and his friends killed the Broadsides outright, but lostal most the entire squad to defensive supporting fire. Only Arjac and four Marines survived the experience. By winning so handily, they were out in the open however.

Round 3:
The Stealthsuits regrouped and with Markerlight help, were able to do some damage to the blob, while the second unit did a serious number on them, killing 12 in one go! The Remaining Stingwings brought the pain as well, cutting down the Command Squad to a man. the badly damaged Stingwings killed a PCS by shooting and then charging them.
Arjac and friends died to insane rapidfiring.

The Vindetta came in and tried to snipe the Command Suit but the one drone between him and death took it like a champ. The unit that DS'd out the back tried to kill more Marker drones and hit pretty well. Made their morale check. The Blob decided to charge the Stingwings and hopefully stay in close combat. It worked. the Blob did not kill all the Stingwings and the Stingwings stod their ground despite losing.

Round 4:
The Fire Warriors advanced, and fired at the DS unit, cutting it down to 2 guys and making them flee.
The Stealthunits charged the IG blob, and together with the remaining Stingwings, finished their much weakened numbers. Blob gone.

The Ig conceded. The Vindetta was still in the sky but had nothing to kill. A running vet squad wasn't coming back but on double 1's. The small unit of flanking Spacewolves on the other side were never going to make it anywhere near anyone.

Had the game continued I think the Tau would have tabled the enemy except the Vindetta which would be a crap shoot. The Kroot can shoot it down but its no guarantee.

So overall a very impressive win.

That was the most recent game I saw Stealthsuits in. Im obviously not the player in question, so I dont have the lists to look at but it was pretty memorable. The flank crumpled, and kept crumpling. Relying on large blasts to kill big circled-out units is a non starter and the Plasma guard would have been great for the job and did do damage, but for their Chimeras being made of paper meche on the sides.









Automatically Appended Next Post:

Coyote81 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
My current Tau list is 9-0, against 7 different Generals. In those games, KROOt have killed more vehicles than ANY of my other units (taken singularly). My last game, they blew a StormRaven out of the sky. My opponent was NOT amused.

So there are many ways to skin the cat. And that's what I am enjoying so much about the new Tau. Such diversity in how you can play them.

I don't believe your story about the kroot unless your bring krootox. Without krootox you need something like 80 kroot shots to wreck a stormraven. And this is not a viable use for kroot. Stop using mathmatically extreme stories to attempt to prove poijts.

I use krootox. So now you can beleive my story. All 9 of them. Lol.

My current list is as follows. Please note that this is not my new version which Im still constructing, just the one I was using to test things:
170pts 10 Kroot +7 Hounds+3 Krootox
170pts 10 Kroot +7 Hounds+3 Krootox


90pts 10 Fire Warriors
90pts 10 Fire Warriors


194pts 7 Pathfinders (3 x Rail rifles, Recon, Grav and Pulse Drones, EMP Grenades)
95pts Devilfish (Disruption Pod)


194pts 7 Pathfinders (3 x Rail rifles, Recon, Grav and Pulse Drones, EMP Grenades)
95pts Devilfish (Disruption Pod)


140pts 10 Marker Drones


150pts Commander (Flamer, Vectored Retro Thrusters, Drone Controller, Command and Control Node, Repulsor Impact Field, Neuroweb System Jammer, Puretide Engram NeuroChip, Onager Gauntlet)


235pts Riptide battle suit (Ion Accelerator, 1 Missile Drones, Velocity Tracker, Early Warning Override)


235pts Riptide battle suit (Ion Accelerator, 1 Missile Drones, Velocity Tracker, Early Warning Override)


139pts 3 Crisis Suits (TL Fusion Blaster, Flamer)


1999pts



Automatically Appended Next Post:

uberjoras wrote:
Well, okay, here's a counterpoint - I use Fire Warriors fairly effectively as long-range anti-tank and anti-flyer. .

Do you mean Flyuing Monstrous Creatures? Not a LOT of flyers go down to STR 5. Tau obviously would make you shine though.

Wow... That was effective. Never silenced a thread for two days before. Lol.

You should have waited weeks or months until someone necro'd it before posting. I think everyone, myself included, have given up whining to try new things with Tau or make new houserules to make it work.

And I just have ridiculous luck taking pot shots at flyers and side/rear armor of vehicles. My fire warriors can't hit infantry worth a darn, but they really hate av11 vehicles.

whining or winning? Lol.

I am just amused that so much was made of me "showing" the circumstances of the win I saw with Stealthsuits even though, really... It really wasn't that ground breaking. When you look at it, the victory made sense. Good plan, good execution. I told him exactly how to do it, his opponent knew it was coming and couldn't stop it.

So I figured that once I explained it, showed the example and the list I am using now, they'd tell me something like this: "oh but but but but but..." But no. To their credit, they didn't.

This is a tactics thread though, so I think it is worth exploring these kinds of ideas, maybe on its own thread, with a somewhat more open minded approach..

I do want to try stealth suits sometime. They're just a bit contrary to my usual mantra of "I already have enough s5" because I run 30+ FW's in every list. I need to find a good way to utilize them.

Well this is one.

The queston for you doesn't seem to be "should I have STR 5" because you already have it in there (30 FW's). the question is "WHERE do I want the STR 5?"

And then realize that the STr 5 comes with 18" STR 8 Melta. It changes things a bit. So does where you can deploy it ANd how tough it is to kill. It provides antitank ability but a lot more as well.

As in the case of this little battle I watched, you can obviously see that infiltrating and going first proved devastating. The enemy couldn't plan for where the stealthsuits might be, They were able to take the "weak side", wipe it out and spread out, then use dead hulls for cover as they progressed through the enemy. That's what happened. I think that, in the end, WHERE the fussilade came from was WHY it was successful.

Think of Stealth suits as REPOSITIONABLE fire warriors if it helps.

People keep comparing crisis and stealth stats and guns, and forget to take into consideration their abilities.

Stealth+Shroud is nice and all, but its not the reason to take stealths, just a nice defensive buff.

You take stealths so you can infiltrate. infiltrating fusion at the very least will force your opponent's deployment into a more defensive formation around their armor, infiltrating burst cannons can grab early midfield presence.

Mathammer is nice and all, but tactics are still a part of this game, and as far tactics are concerned, stealth are more versatile, and have a bigger impact on deployment.


Imagin you are an IG player, and you see the enemy Tau infiltarte 2 teams of stealth suits, each with 4 bursts and 2 target-lock fusions.

How safe do you feel about going reserve-heavy now?
How safe do you feel to deploy the russes up front?
How safe do you feel about leaving the artillery in the corner while your main force is up front?
How safe do you feel to place the ADL outside your deployment zone and run for it first turn?

Not very much, I assure you.


Sure, it only works for some players, but the ones who loves it, LOVES it.

Yeah thats what happened in the battle report above. Well... Battle summary anyways.

The silence is due to giving up trying to reason with a brick wall. you gave us a story that once again included a player winning because of extraordinary dice rolls. this is the last math I will do for a while.

-10 grey hunters
- two units of 6 stealthsuits with 2 meltas each. @ BS5 due to marker support

4 melta shots hitting on 2's and wounding on 2's: we'll round up to 3 dead marines Assuming no cover saves from markerlights

8 suits with 4 shots = 32shots each hitting on 2's
32 x (5/6) = 26.7 hits
26.7 hits wound on 3's: 27.6 x 2/3 = 17.8 wounds
17.8 wound fail on 1's and 2's: 17.8 x 1/3= 5.9 wounds (round to 6)

In total 9 dead marines, pretty good, but lets brake down the points.

Marines: 10 Grey Hunters 2x Plasmagun, Wolfstandard, Power Axe 185pts

Tau needed to almost kill them.

- 2x unit of 6 stealthsuits with 2s Fusion Blaster 380pts
- 16 Pathfinders (needed 8 markerlights to give BS5 and ignore cover saves to both units) 126pts
( I'll give you the benefit of having the drone swarm and commander instead. 10 drones plus one commander with dc, 2x mpods. thats 259pts instead.
Total of 506pts (639pts)

Is this really your argument? This a great strategy because over 600pts of Tau can kill 9 space marines in one turn? this is why the thread has been silent. You can't argue things are a good strategy base strictly on results, you have to take how they impact your army as a whole. If you have over 600pts aiming at one unit that costs less then 200pts, your being very inefficient with your units and you may kill that one unit, but if your enemy can eliminate your units with better efficiency on his turn, he's one the point battle. Why not build your list better and use units that kill marine more efficiently then stealthsuits with marker support therefore minimizing the points you need to kill those marines.

The main reason I don't like your comment and stories, is because I feel they teach people that are new to playing Tau very bad habits. They can be over come sometimes by great generalship and sound tactics. but in the end, New people need to learn sound list building before anything else. Because being a good general and learning tactics comes by playing. list building is something that can be taught, and I feel your ideas teach these new people to start off on a bad foot.

No offense meant, you might be a great general and have sound tactics, but the list (your list?) in the story is very inefficient and put the player behind as the game begins.

there were three units. Not two, math wiz. Gun drones too.

It happened. pretending that math will make it go away is a fools errand.
Oh and um...this IS a tactics thread...not a list building thread. Just thgought I'd remind you of that as well.

 Jancoran wrote:
there were three units. Not two, math wiz. Gun drones too.

that makes his point better. It took over three times the cost of the unit you killed to take them down, and you argue that "no! It costed way more!".

It happened. pretending that math will make it go away is a fools errand.

.... Wasn't pretending that the math doesn't work your argument? You were the one saying that math doesn't work and can't be used. So wouldn't that be your errand?

 Jancoran wrote:
there were three units. Not two, math wiz. Gun drones too.

It happened. pretending that math will make it go away is a fools errand.
Oh and um...this IS a tactics thread...not a list building thread. Just thought I'd remind you of that as well.

Thanks for making my point. The points cost need to kill a simple 10 man was too high.

I'm sorry that you don't relate list building and tactics together. But I've learned over the years, that you have to do your list building as you plan your strategy and vice-verse. Doing one without the other is a waste of time. And that is what we're really talking about here right? Strategy? The tactic are the moves you plan on making once you've seen the enemy and the battlefield your playing on. Going too in depth on tactics specifically is a waste of time due to the wide variety of situations people could encounter.

I believe with Tau, the key to winning is managing your firepower to most efficiently destroy your opponents army. Sure you can spend of 600pts with any unit and kill space marines, but wouldn't you rather plan to only have to use 300pts to kill those same space marines? I think this is the key thing your missing and refusing to acknowledge and/or explain how your "tactics" are remotely efficient.

Oh and about the math. If I get struck by lightning, yea it happened, but the math doesn't disappear and the likelihood of that happening again is still extraordinary, I can't count on getting hit by lightning every time.

And you wonder why I didn't bother humoring your requests for information on the battle.

How many of those Stealth units were wiped or fleeing at games end Savageconvoy? Did you count them? Let me help you: ZERO stealth units dead or fleeing. Only the Broadsides were completely wiped. So he probably doesnt CARE if it took 600 points to kill a 2000 point army any more than IG care if it takes them 3x200 point leman Russ Plasmacutioners to stomp someone! You think that disappoints him in the LEAST?

You sir are worried about the WRONG thing entirely,

So heres some math: IG lost 1600 points in units (Vendetta and some Space Wolves left, and a Drop Pod, plus I think some vets) Tau lost 140 in total units, close as i can tell.

None of it looks very lucky to me. they killed the Marines (expected with so much shooting). Then the Leman Squadron with Broadside help (expected, not in any way shocking)... then whittled the blob and company (again, expected). then finished the blob. Seems like it went pretty much how you'd expect. Stingwings threw their two cents in, would have been more useful against Marines and I am sure it's why he had them.

Even if I agreed with your kind of math, and told you you're 100% right... It works. You can argue that its inefficient til the cows come home if thats your thing. Doesn't change what happened and what will happn again.

Can't win em all, but a Stealthy flank attack is pretty darn scary. I've seen it. I respect it. Choose to underestimate it at your own peril, friend.

When you win games like that. I blame your opponent for making mistakes.

I believe with Tau, the key to winning is managing your firepower to most efficiently destroy your opponents army. Sure you can spend of 600pts with any unit and kill space marines, but wouldn't you rather plan to only have to use 300pts to kill those same space marines? I think this is the key thing your missing and refusing to acknowledge and/or explain how your "tactics" are remotely efficient.

What 300 points of Tau Kills 10 Space Marines in one salvo.

Go ahead. I'll wait. Don't worry though, the answer is pretty irrelevant.

What Jancoran and others are trying to illuminate to you is that the unit is capable of threatening different aspect of the board and changing the way the opponent deploys, how they react to certain things, opening up opportunities for you to exploit their mistakes. And please, for the love of God, don't tell me that tired line the good Generals don't make mistakes. They all do. Napolean did, and he trips over the higher level thinking of most 40k "generals."

Just killing stuff slightly more efficiently doesn't win you games. Killing the right unit at the right time, and positioning the board in the right way, wins you games. 40k is not a "shooting game" despite what novice generals will tell you. 40k is a game of positioning. Games are won and lost during the movement phase and during deployment. Two phases the Stealth suits do quite well in. No amount of math hammering point efficiencies can make that any clearer. You are either experienced with disruption units, like Mutilators, Mandrakes, Flayed Ones, Lone Wolfs, Soladins, or Stealth teams, or you are not. If you are experienced with them and both understand the difficult decisions it places on your opponent as well as the flexible options it gives you, you understand that what they do goes far beyond their shear in a vacuum two units shooting at each other thought experiments.

Now, are these units you want to max out and spend half your points on? No. I would say as a general rule ~10-15% of your list dedicated to flexible distraction is generally sufficient. The rest can go towards your math hammered perfectly efficient pewpew. But I can't say this enough. Take a unit or two of these consistently and learn how to make your opponents life difficult with them. They will make you a better general and you will win more games that way.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Coyote81 wrote:
When you win games like that. I blame your opponent for making mistakes.

That's the disconnect. The assuming every opponent is perfect and doesn't make mistakes. That's a myth. A fantasy. These people don't exist. Everyone makes mistakes, and some units, particularly ones people don't interact with a lot, force more mistakes then others.

 Jancoran wrote:
And you wonder why I didn't bother humoring your requests for information on the battle.

Yeah, how dare I ask that you provide some evidence for a claim. I should have just let you say whatever you wanted and accept it as fact.

How many of those Stealth units were wiped or fleeing at games end Savageconvoy? Did you count them? Let me help you: ZERO

hmm... Zero... That's odd, because I thought you said

Bit of bad luck, as the Ig landed a nice shot and obliterated the damaged Stealth unit.

oh wait. That's right, because you did. Way to go, math wiz.

Coyote81 wrote:
When you win games like that. I blame your opponent for making mistakes.

Ooooooooh. I seeeeeeee. For eight years, that's what that was. A contstant stream of mistakes made by players in multiple states and countries.

You're probably right.

Aaaanyways... it might be good for you to remember that this wasn't my game anyways. I just told him how to do it. And I told his opponent what was coming, just to make it hard. He said all the same things you have. Didn't help his case I'm afraid. Fun to watch though.

The thread was originally in regards to the codex being a pile of Feth, and my central point was that it certainly was not and look at all these great options you can try, this being ONE of them. Pointed out my own list, which is nothing like it. My central point remains the same. He can win with Stealths. I can win with Pathfinder awesomeness and a couple riptides. You can win with...uh...math and Savage convoy can win with condescension and glittering generalities backed by math! There's a way to fight for everyone here in the new codex and it will not be boring.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
And you wonder why I didn't bother humoring your requests for information on the battle.

Yeah, how dare I ask that you provide some evidence for a claim. I should have just let you say whatever you wanted and accept it as fact.

How many of those Stealth units were wiped or fleeing at games end Savageconvoy? Did you count them? Let me help you: ZERO

hmm... Zero... That's odd, because I thought you said

Bit of bad luck, as the Ig landed a nice shot and obliterated the damaged Stealth unit.

oh wait. That's right, because you did. Way to go, math wiz.

yup, one., thats right.

Changes my point ALOT. Oh wait. nope. been a while since I read that thing so you'll excuse my poor memory on that point. Or not. I don;t care. I gave you the "proof" or example you asked for with predictable results from you.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I believe with Tau, the key to winning is managing your firepower to most efficiently destroy your opponents army. Sure you can spend of 600pts with any unit and kill space marines, but wouldn't you rather plan to only have to use 300pts to kill those same space marines? I think this is the key thing your missing and refusing to acknowledge and/or explain how your "tactics" are remotely efficient.

What 300 points of Tau Kills 10 Space Marines in one salvo.

Go ahead. I'll wait. Don't worry though, the answer is pretty irrelevant.

What Jancoran and others are trying to illuminate to you is that the unit is capable of threatening different aspect of the board and changing the way the opponent deploys, how they react to certain things, opening up opportunities for you to exploit their mistakes. And please, for the love of God, don't tell me that tired line the good Generals don't make mistakes. They all do. Napolean did, and he trips over the higher level thinking of most 40k "generals."

Just killing stuff slightly more efficiently doesn't win you games. Killing the right unit at the right time, and positioning the board in the right way, wins you games. 40k is not a "shooting game" despite what novice generals will tell you. 40k is a game of positioning. Games are won and lost during the movement phase and during deployment. Two phases the Stealth suits do quite well in. No amount of math hammering point efficiencies can make that any clearer. You are either experienced with disruption units, like Mutilators, Mandrakes, Flayed Ones, Lone Wolfs, Soladins, or Stealth teams, or you are not. If you are experienced with them and both understand the difficult decisions it places on your opponent as well as the flexible options it gives you, you understand that what they do goes far beyond their shear in a vacuum two units shooting at each other thought experiments.

Now, are these units you want to max out and spend half your points on? No. I would say as a general rule ~10-15% of your list dedicated to flexible distraction is generally sufficient. The rest can go towards your math hammered perfectly efficient pewpew. But I can't say this enough. Take a unit or two of these consistently and learn how to make your opponents life difficult with them. They will make you a better general and you will win more games that way..

So 300pts of Tau was a comparison statement, not a fact, but i can come up with a more efficient setup then that if you want. something around 400pts and doesn't use 4 force org slots as well. Here you go since you need fact and not comparison statements.

Unit 1: 3x Crisis Suits 2x suits with 2x plasma rifles, 6x marker drones, sha'vre with C&C node, MSS, Drone controller (Feel free to add a third option of your choice to the first two suits)

Unit 2: 3x Crisis Suits 3x suits with 2x plasma rifles

You can do the math, but unit one fires, kills 5 marines @12" and puts 3 marker lights on the target. Unit 2 fires, use BS4 and no cover saves, @12" it kills 6-7 marines.

Total 419pts. 2 force org slots, for 10pts more, you can split fire the markers at one unit and the plasma rifles at another.

This is a prime example of effciency. These units can still deepstrike if needed. Kills half as many guys from 24".

Ok, back to the meat of the discussion.

Having played armies that require a lot more finesse and use of distractions, feints and other such ploys for 10+ years (Woodelves). I can tell you that these ideas are not lost on me. (Hench my love of kroot over firewarriors, I bring some of each and shadowsun outflanking units that normally can't, from the back table edge using stealthsuits to deliever position relay) your ideas are sound, but you can't do it at the expense of making an efficient list as well. It's all one big puzzle and the pieces need to fit. Bringing a bad list and saying you can when by being a better general means that when you play a player that is just as good as you. (Often happens when playing tournament level games) Which ever person brings the more efficient list for the type of game, often is the one the wins the game. Thus why i preach for people to learn how to make efficient lists. Once you have that you can learn tactics. just assume each opponent is a pro (so you don't under estimate them) and then your wins will come easier and easier.

Yes there is more to it then comparing two untis using math, but specific field tactics are much hard to show on a forum, thus unit comparison is what things normally break down to. My orignal arugement about this stealth setup is to use more efficient units that do the same thing. Which includes disruption tactics. That is exactly how I use Kroot Blobs, shadowsun escorted units, and deepstrikers.

Stealthsuits are good disruption units, but so are Kroot/shadowsun/piranha. I just think that the stealthsuits are the least efficient of these. Hopefully that futher explains my part of the arguement, and maybe you guys can respond with more then. "It takes tactics to use them correctly, you jsut don't see it" Imo, thats the truth of everything in warhammer. If you don't use proper tactics, the even the more efficient unit is worthless.

Regardless of the specifics of stealth suit's performance, I do think they could have a role in a Tau army - they just might be in the wrong slot or cost a bit much for what they do. Stealth suit troops would be pretty incredible, even at 30 points. I would probably take a unit of 6 just to replace 12FW + d-fish, because tactically they *are* pretty useful to have.

Right now though, Elite slots are really important to stuff melta/ap2 into, since you don't really get it anywhere else in the codex besides snipers or suicide piranhas. If I come up against a tough army that doesn't care about my skirmishers one bit - like 20+ terminators, or paladins, or IG blobs in front of cover-ignoring artillery, or a lucky roll on divination for perfect timing on almost any libby, or just straight up drop pods - then I need some tough, efficient dudes that can kill those threats immediately, not whittle them down over 3+ turns. Hammernators nearby my scoring troops need an immediate answer, not 'oh well if I kill one every turn, they'll go away eventually...' Crisis suits (and riptides) do provide that answer, Stealths don't really do that as well. Stealths aren't as scary as a Riptide, nor as tanky either, so they're just not going to divert as much attention/firepower as a riptide will. They don't have as much pure killy as crisis suits have, and take about the same punishment as crisis suits do from small arms fire point-for-point.

But that's coming from me, who doesn't really play tournaments, and whose local meta has shifted towards heavy mech, terminators, & blobs instead of towards basic infantry.