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When you throw superlatives on the table it sort of is in poor faith.

I know of no "worthless unit". Haven't seen one.

Don't play 'em if you don't think you can win with 'em. I can. others have as you can see.What more can i tell ya'

 Jancoran wrote:
When you throw superlatives on the table it sort of is in poor faith.

I know of no "worthless unit". Haven't seen one.

Don't play 'em if you don't think you can win with 'em. I can. others have as you can see.What more can i tell ya'

I agree with this completely. Nothing irks me more when people trample on the English language in a rather futile attempt to further validate their point.

There isn't a single unit in the game that is truly "worthless." Sub optimal? Maybe. But never, ever, worthless. "Non competitive" is almost as bad, particularly when you've seen first hand said "non competitive" unit...compete.

I also love it when "non competitive" units win its always because of luck, or bad opponents, or bad scenarios, or bad tournaments, but never, ever, because of a bad initial appraisal by the speaker.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
When you throw superlatives on the table it sort of is in poor faith.

I know of no "worthless unit". Haven't seen one.

Don't play 'em if you don't think you can win with 'em. I can. others have as you can see.What more can i tell ya'

I agree with this completely. Nothing irks me more when people trample on the English language in a rather futile attempt to further validate their point.

There isn't a single unit in the game that is truly "worthless." Sub optimal? Maybe. But never, ever, worthless. "Non competitive" is almost as bad, particularly when you've seen first hand said "non competitive" unit...compete.

I also love it when "non competitive" units win its always because of luck, or bad opponents, or bad scenarios, or bad tournaments, but never, ever, because of a bad initial appraisal by the speaker.

Quoted for Truth.

What am I supposed to do, give all my medlas and awards and prizes back now because the wins were invalidated by math? I mean should I apologize ot all my victims and say "naw man I was joking, here's yer Gift cert dude" and buy him a beer to make up for my years of delusion.

When someone is trying to teach you how to do something new, its usually better to listen, especially when it comes to a new codex that no one here should be claiming to have mastered yet. Might accidentally l;earn something. Who knows.

@ Jancoran You are acting pretty self obsessed, and making some terrible assumtion that your acting teaching me something I didn't already know. I guess I'm wrong and should throw out all my medal and certs. Maybe even some of my models since those were rewards for my various tourney wins. (I can act self important too)

The term worthless was used once, and in a situation that applied. I still stand on my idea that any unit, no matter how good or bad, used inappropriately becomes worthless for the situation. Never did I say any one unit was worthless. Please read deeper. I'd like to have a discussion and from those I do learn things but you guys don't give me anything to work with.

I also make the habit of playing with every unit I can in a codex multiple times to get a feel for their ability and usefullness. Over time i find which units I like and tend to stick to them, they might not be what most people like, but they work for my play style and I find them efficient and effective. I guess the same is true for each person, therefore they can choose to use whatever units they want. i'm just trying to give them hard evidence in comparing one unti to another.

@Jancoran If you don't have anything to discuss other then acting self important and telling me to learn someting about tactics. (Even though you have no background on me) Please refrain from responding to my threads so I can have a real discussion on stealthsuits and their merits.

You dont want to have a real discussion about stealth suits and their merits. You want someone to agree with you that they aren't as good as the alternatives and Savageconvoy would have us beleive Kroot are better at the job! Literally said so. That is what you want. and any less than total capitulation on the point will not satisfy you. All i want is for folks to TRY them, as they, aLONG WITH Cirsis Teams and Riptides are valuable Elite selections. I dont NEED to villify the other selections to find value in this one, as you have sort of taken the tact of doing.

So I dont think you have any intention of a good faith discourse. That train came off the rails a long time ago. I can requote all the superlatives and glittering generalities I've heard thus far, if you'd like (they are right there after all) and condense them into one post. Or you can agree that MAYBE you overstated things a bit. Words like "worthless", and "inefficient" and "Overcosted" and so on have no meaning. They just SOUND good to someone...Until they see the devastation those can do. And then...well... You starty to come around after seeing it a few times.

All I've attempted here is to both explain and even give an example, of how it works and why a "shooting range" isn't the game we're playing.

I've attempted on a thread that ISNT about stealth suits, on a tactics thread, to show you that the codex isn't a steaming pile as the OP says it is. It is posessed of a lot of ways to win and play now. Heres ONE.

That was the premise ALL ALONG. Stealthsuits were one example.

Do not PRETEND to be a voice of reason here. You've taken evidence of succcess and essentially ignored it. That is not the sign of a good faith discussion. Not at all.

I dunno, Mandrakes, Flayed Ones,... I can think of plenty worthless units, so overshadowed by other options (and the cost of the models!) that taking them would be a fool's decision.

I don't think anything like that exists in the new Tau dex save maybe Vespids. They might still work... but they seem worthless to me.

Gun drone squadrons, re-fitted with shield generators. Why bury an IC in a unit when you can get a whole other unit to bury him in, that takes a FA slot, and costs more than simply buying shield drones as wargear?

Now THAT is worthless.

uberjoras wrote:
Gun drone squadrons, re-fitted with shield generators. Why bury an IC in a unit when you can get a whole other unit to bury him in, that takes a FA slot, and costs more than simply buying shield drones as wargear?

Now THAT is worthless.

Well yeah if the entire squad was shield drones,

that would be like taking a crisis suit team with only EWO. you can do it but whats the point

I think that's what I'm going to use in every army from now on. 36 shield drones and 9 crisis suits + commander with 2 shield drones each. Everyone will chill out on a skyshield landing pad, while skyrays and aun'va charge ahead for the greater good, supported on the flanks with min-sized carbine FW's.


... And if I win, then it just proves those units are optimal, and you're all wrong

9 Broadsides and 12 Missile Drones. It is so disgustingly powerful. I played against Nids and killed 4 MCs in one turn (they all had either IA or Endurance).


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I used:
Ethereal
Ethereal
2x 20 Kroot - 1 Hound
20 Kroot
19 Kroot
2x 10 Kroot
7 Pathfinder
7 Pathfinder
7 Pathfinder
3x 3 Broadside - HYMP, 4 Drones Each Squad
2x Riptide with HBC and SMS

LValx wrote:
9 Broadsides and 12 Missile Drones. It is so disgustingly powerful. I played against Nids and killed 4 MCs in one turn (they all had either IA or Endurance).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I used:
Ethereal
Ethereal
2x 20 Kroot - 1 Hound
20 Kroot
19 Kroot
2x 10 Kroot
7 Pathfinder
7 Pathfinder
7 Pathfinder
3x 3 Broadside - HYMP, 4 Drones Each Squad
2x Riptide with HBC and SMS

Interesting composition, but it looks awfully unbalanced to me. Are there other upgrades that I'm missing on some of those units?

no missing upgrades. I suppose unbalanced, but ~100 troop bodies, with mass LD 10 (possible stubborn) and that much shooting wrecks people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It may struggle with AV14, but I've played vs a Double Raider list and won on objectives. Doesnt fear MCs or Infantry of any kind. Anything below AV13 is very scared and even AV13 can die pretty quick to glances with 60 Str7 shots.

actually that could work. The Ridiculous firepower will stomp armor or monsters, and planes too.

That leaves anti-personell duty to what, 100 kroot and 21 Pathfinders? Yikes. Plenty. PLENTY. It would work.

AV 14 can be taken out if you just added some EMP grenades to the Pathfinders. My pathfinders carry them and they are MVP's. they kill MEQ, Terminators, Leman Russ's, LandRaiders..you name it. Multi-faceted unit for sure.

Though honestly, STR 9 Large blasts can take armor too. might not be as quick as an EMP Grenade barrage But...

LValx wrote:
no missing upgrades. I suppose unbalanced, but ~100 troop bodies, with mass LD 10 (possible stubborn) and that much shooting wrecks people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It may struggle with AV14, but I've played vs a Double Raider list and won on objectives. Doesnt fear MCs or Infantry of any kind. Anything below AV13 is very scared and even AV13 can die pretty quick to glances with 60 Str7 shots.

Shave a few points, ~42pts worth, you all your pathfinders have EMP grenades.

Thats a great 8-18" (13" avg) threat range, death to anything with an AV value.

6-7 Kroot's worth, seems reasonable!

I like the list with the exception of the HQ choices and no Ion Accelerator on the Riptides. with that many broadsides spamming missiles, I think that list is the perfect place for a couple Large blast S8 AP2 templates.

If you are worried about LRs, take EMP or fusion blasters on the Riptides. Otherwise, you arent worried about much.

The Broadsides aren't overly reliant on Markers which is why I like them so much. Most opponents will focus heavily on Pathfinders (smart), but then Broadsides go untouched.

I'm not saying that list is the end-all of Tau lists. Just very, very formidable. No other army can pump out that amount of Str. 7 and it simply buries people.

And don't underestimate that many Kroot with buffs and what not.

So far i've beaten the 18 Wraith menace, 60 Fleshhound Daemons, Flyerspam, IG, Nids and Drop Pod spam. I know someone will say, BUT VENDETTAS! Well, I don't take Skyfire on my Broadsides so i'll just GTG to give Drones a 2+ or 3+ vs the Lascannons (it's worked in my 2 games vs 3x Vendettas).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Coyote81 wrote:
I like the list with the exception of the HQ choices and no Ion Accelerator on the Riptides. with that many broadsides spamming missiles, I think that list is the perfect place for a couple Large blast S8 AP2 templates.

Large blasts are something im not a big fan of personally. All the people I play with are meticulous about model spacing, so I prefer the 8-12 shots of HBC. BUT, I wouldn't judge anyone for taking a different Riptide loadout, i've just had more success with HBC myself.

Yeah if your players are very meticulous, the HBC is a good choice.

Thats one thing I am definitely awesome at. i have a picture of a tourney I was at where my Sisters of battle who i start in round formations, over the ourse of the game formed a HEART shape as they moved because of terrain. It was a pretty cool pic.



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 TheKbob wrote:
I dunno, Mandrakes, Flayed Ones,... I can think of plenty worthless units, so overshadowed by other options (and the cost of the models!) that taking them would be a fool's decision.

I don't think anything like that exists in the new Tau dex save maybe Vespids. They might still work... but they seem worthless to me.

Wait...Mandrakes? Come now! Does anyone use them often enough for anyone to even have an opinion? I have fielded them. No one else has that I have EVER seen. So perhaps they are..unpopular. But worthless? hmm...

As for Stingwings, I've been using those in my normal tourney army for years. excellent perimeter assassins. No one seems to like them but I have fluctuated btween 9-11 in my unit over time, but they have pretty much been there forever. What I liked about them in the old rules was how they ignored difficult terrain. they could jump in with a Pathfinder Devilfish and pretty much take cover and then use markerlights to take cover away...then massacre the Dev squad. then next round, they'd bounce and do it again to something and then hide somewhere to preserve their KP. Rarely ever did they get killed completely. No one respected them so it was like "meh, two Stingwings left? two shots? Im going after something else".

So i often could squeek 2 Kills out of them and not suffer any loss for doing it!

In the new codex they are everything I had hoped they would be. So you can be sure that as i playtest more ideas, they will be included. Seriously thinking about taking my own advice on that list I did for my buddy. Looked fun.

Flayed once... well... I mean i like the way they work with the special character. Without the character, they drop off a bit. Not sure how i feel about the new ones. the models aren't great though. Thats one deterent. Who wants to paint something thatsjust so...I dunno. Worthless though?...

I love this codex. I've been testing a variety of lists and you can really vary your entire list composition due to all the excellent choices.

For me: Crisis Suits, Commander, Ethereal, Piranhas, Pathfinders, Skyrays, Broadsides, Sniper Drones and Riptides all stand out. But its so difficult to even include all of them in one list.. :(

It's hard to build a list because there are so many desirable units. Even allies offer so many combos. IG/Tau seems great, Eldar are nasty for psychic tricks, Orks for strong bodies is my favorite.

LValx wrote:
no missing upgrades. I suppose unbalanced, but ~100 troop bodies, with mass LD 10 (possible stubborn) and that much shooting wrecks people.

Definitely. I just see a lot of draws or lost games thanks to losing Ethereals if you encounter armies that can stand off against you. I think this army is really good at not losing, but perhaps not as good at actually winning, especially against enemies that don't have to advance into its guns.

 Kingsley wrote:

LValx wrote:
no missing upgrades. I suppose unbalanced, but ~100 troop bodies, with mass LD 10 (possible stubborn) and that much shooting wrecks people.

Definitely. I just see a lot of draws or lost games thanks to losing Ethereals if you encounter armies that can stand off against you. I think this army is really good at not losing, but perhaps not as good at actually winning, especially against enemies that don't have to advance into its guns.

I'll preface by saying that I play NOVA scenarios almost exclusively. There aren't ties in this set-up and the objective placement forces people to move into midfield due to the middle objective generally being the only objective in "no man's land".

60 Str. 7 shots with another 44 Str. 5 shots and the 16-24 Str. 6 Rending shots will do ENORMOUS amounts of damage to just about any army in the game. Dawn of War/Vanguard Strike Deployments make it difficult to stay out of range (though we've already had this disagreement). 36" is a big range and if worst comes to worst you can always use the snapshot after running Ethereal boost and try to increase snap-shot BS with Markers (done this lots of times). If my army manages to keep an opponent almost fully out of 36", i'm happy.

Ethereals are very, very hard to kill. I've played ~15 games or so with 2x Ethereal and haven't lost both in 1 game yet. Between GTG and LoS it is very difficult to snipe them out (Vindicare could def. be annoying). Barrages can be scary, but if I'm in terrain i'll get a 3+ and my LoS.

I can see where you are coming from, but I respectfully disagree that this army would "draw" a lot. I don't think the army's biggest strength is durability, but rather overwhelming firepower. If I wanted to build a list that was simply good at not dying, it'd look a lot different than this (6 Guard blobs FTW, lol).

Also. 11 SMS with the ability to boost to 13 is very hard to hide from and it scares the pants off of Xenos armies.

Im telling you, this is why barrages have continued to become better and better choices.

Ethereals add a lot. Killing them is good. Killing the Warlord Ethereal? 3 KP! D'oh! I have to say, that would be a good reason to make a Command suit the Warlord. But I understand why you have two of course. Hop them from units as they become weakened and so on. Keeps the torrent at a ridiculous level for a while.

Played my Tau for the first time today, learned a few things and screwed up badly due to me putting a few things into reserve instead of deploying it because i ran out of cover to deploy them in, and i was against armor Orks with a lot of wagons.

1000pts + 200 ( for campagin )

Ethereal

3 crisis suits Missile Pod + Missile Pod + Shield
3 crisis suits Plasma + Fusion + Shield

12 Firewarriors
12 Firewarriors
12 Firewarriors

1 Broadside with HYM

Extra: Hammerhead with longstrike, disrution pods and submunition.

I did the mistake of putting my plasma a bit too close to the enemy vehicle line because i didnt realize that everything he had was assault vehicles ( because most of them was "Looted" and looked like tanks, and were not that obvious imo )

So i lost my Fusion and Plasma early, and i focused wrong with my Hammerhead and he saved a lot....

But for a first impression, i find it a lot more fun to play than my tyranids ^^

How did the broadisde missiles do? I have yet to field that and though I bought two Missiles versions (which look great on paper) I am having a tough time fitting them in. I like them. Enough to pay $100. But dang. I am running into the same problem as in last edition: they seem like a little dab will do ya. With so many ways to kill tanks now, it's tough to just buy a single purpose model anymore! MissileSides give you both worlds: anti-tank and anti-horde ability. So it's nice so long as you have anti-Raider duty covered.

Just wondered how it did.

 Jancoran wrote:
How did the broadisde missiles do? I have yet to field that and though I bought two Missiles versions (which look great on paper) I am having a tough time fitting them in. I like them. Enough to pay $100. But dang. I am running into the same problem as in last edition: they seem like a little dab will do ya. With so many ways to kill tanks now, it's tough to just buy a single purpose model anymore! MissileSides give you both worlds: anti-tank and anti-horde ability. So it's nice so long as you have anti-Raider duty covered.

Just wondered how it did.

A single broadside with High yield missiles was suprisingly good, it knocked out half of a deepstruck unit of those guys with a rocket on their backs, and it took off a hullpoint off a truck, it killed half a unit IN cover, due to SMS i got 4 wounds auto plus the other missiles is twinlinked and the saves werent that bad, and 8 Twinlinked shots with AP4 and AP5 every round were quite effective even against orks.

I messed up tactically, but when the fight was done, the broadside was the only model on the table, and he had 3 half-dead units of sluggas ( between 3-5 models left ) a half dead truck and 2 trucks and that tank with AV14 something something. ( should have ignored that, but i was confident that my hammerhead should penetrate it, but nope... a 3 and 1 on the armor )

LValx wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

LValx wrote:
no missing upgrades. I suppose unbalanced, but ~100 troop bodies, with mass LD 10 (possible stubborn) and that much shooting wrecks people.

Definitely. I just see a lot of draws or lost games thanks to losing Ethereals if you encounter armies that can stand off against you. I think this army is really good at not losing, but perhaps not as good at actually winning, especially against enemies that don't have to advance into its guns.

I'll preface by saying that I play NOVA scenarios almost exclusively. There aren't ties in this set-up and the objective placement forces people to move into midfield due to the middle objective generally being the only objective in "no man's land".

Gotcha. That certainly changes things substantially.

LValx wrote:
Ethereals are very, very hard to kill.

This doesn't match my experience. T3 2W just isn't that tough, Go to Ground or no. I think Ethereals can only reliably be protected with multi-level ruins (to shield from Barrages), but having these is far from guaranteed under normal situations. I'm not sure if NOVA guarantees this (it shouldn't), though if it does that weakness is obviously partially mitigated. Even guaranteed Area Terrain seems dubious, though again I'm not familiar with the NOVA format.

LValx wrote:
I can see where you are coming from, but I respectfully disagree that this army would "draw" a lot. I don't think the army's biggest strength is durability, but rather overwhelming firepower. If I wanted to build a list that was simply good at not dying, it'd look a lot different than this (6 Guard blobs FTW, lol).

I don't think the army's strength is durability. When I say that the army's strength is not losing, I mean that many armies cannot realistically attack your objectives. However, your firepower is only overwhelming within a limited range band and requires line of sight. Against an opponent who does not have to advance it seems lacking. Many IG gunlines seem like they never lose to this army and maybe win (if they can snipe your Ethereal with a Manticore/Colossus, score First Blood by killing a small Pathfinder team or 10-man Kroot unit, etc.). If objectives don't favor you (The Scouring) you will be in trouble. If you go first against a lot of armies you will be in trouble.

I suppose I just don't think armies like this are flexible enough. If your opponent has an army that can decide to just not play your game, even as a fallback plan, I don't see you winning at anywhere near the reliability that is required to make it to the top of a competitive event.

LValx wrote:
Also. 11 SMS with the ability to boost to 13 is very hard to hide from and it scares the pants off of Xenos armies.

Again, though, those are 30" range Heavy weapons. They're certainly sweet to have, since they can greatly mitigate unfavorable terrain, but they aren't really the "reach out and touch someone" thing you need to take people off their objectives.

This doesn't match my experience. T3 2W just isn't that tough, Go to Ground or no. I think Ethereals can only reliably be protected with multi-level ruins (to shield from Barrages), but having these is far from guaranteed under normal situations. I'm not sure if NOVA guarantees this (it shouldn't), though if it does that weakness is obviously partially mitigated. Even guaranteed Area Terrain seems dubious, though again I'm not familiar with the NOVA format.

They hide behind 20 Kroot wounds....

ShadarLogoth wrote:

This doesn't match my experience. T3 2W just isn't that tough, Go to Ground or no. I think Ethereals can only reliably be protected with multi-level ruins (to shield from Barrages), but having these is far from guaranteed under normal situations. I'm not sure if NOVA guarantees this (it shouldn't), though if it does that weakness is obviously partially mitigated. Even guaranteed Area Terrain seems dubious, though again I'm not familiar with the NOVA format.

They hide behind 20 Kroot wounds....

You can't really hide from Barrages and Precision Shots except via Look Out, Sir.

You can't really hide from Barrages and Precision Shots except via Look Out, Sir.

Sure, you can get unlucky and face rather rarely taken weapon profiles that take it out early. The same thing could be said for virtually every unit in the game. The percentage of lists that bring either Barrage or mass enough precision shots that can threaten your DZ is so small, and the chances of them actually taking him out are similarly minuscule, that not taking arguably one of the bust force multipliers in the game due to a fear of a very rare occurrence seems kind of silly to me.

I used:
Ethereal
Ethereal
2x 20 Kroot - 1 Hound
20 Kroot
19 Kroot
2x 10 Kroot
7 Pathfinder
7 Pathfinder
7 Pathfinder
3x 3 Broadside - HYMP, 4 Drones Each Squad
2x Riptide with HBC and SMS

That list is absolutely brutal, a bit too light on heavy anti-armor and I would have gone with Ion Accelerators (although that arguably makes heavy armor even harder to tackle), but otherwise this list looks like it would absolutely wreck just about anything other than heavy armor. Get some anti heavy armor support in there and you are set.

Barrages miss more than half the time. NOVA does 25% terrain, 2 big pieces in each dzone, one in middle. Can reasonably put each ethereal in a piece and have LoS bodies around him. 2+ LoS, 3+ likely cover and smart placement can help mitigate this (played vs Manticores a few times). It isnt that bad, in my experience. Also the way NOVA and other tournies i've attended place terrain, it usually is a little bit off the board edges. Depending on size you need to stand on it to shoot and therefore you've got coverage over most of board. I've found 36" to be very hard to stay away from. Being a former GK player even 24" can be surprisingly good.

Broadsides can move and fire decently with MLs and TL.