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The title says it all I'm thinking grinders but I'm going to take 2 BT's for HQ so 5 flying MCs could be fun.

I'm of the opinion that Grinders are better. They tend to be significantly cheaper than Daemon Princes and equally (if not more) effective and difficult to destroy. Khorne Princes won't give you much that you won't already have with your Thirsters, and they have the exact same weaknesses which will make it a bit easier to run up against armies (such as Grey Knight force weapon spam) that will make it hard for your list to win. If you do want more flyers in your list, though, a CSM Daemon Prince and a Heldrake are pretty points efficient and will let you diversify the things you can threaten. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that two Thirsters, a Daemon Prince built to be a good compliment to your list, and a Helldrake will be more threatening than two Thirsters and two Daemon Princes of Khorne, and it'll probably be cheaper, too. It also leaves you the option of grabbing 3 grinders or even more FMCs in your primary detachment's heavy slots, too, after the investment.

5 FMCs is really fun but you'll be quite short on ranged anti-tank and troops in general. I find Soulgrinders a bit too confused at what they're supposed to be; CC machines or supporting firepower?

they are fire support, with the ability to protect your table half in cc.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
5 FMCs is really fun but you'll be quite short on ranged anti-tank and troops in general. I find Soulgrinders a bit too confused at what they're supposed to be; CC machines or supporting firepower?

I agree with this; Soul Grinders are ok at shooting, but with heavy 3 S7 they are not going to be smacking flyers out the sky. They are ok at combat too, but they have to get there - what they going to do, shoot or combat?

yea, they aren't pounding heldrakes o vendettas out of the sky, but they are decent against necron, and tau flyers.

also that str 7 gun mixed with phlegm is really good at clearing out ground threats.

Not even good against them either really. Going to hit with 1.5 shots, lets round it up and say 2 and then 50% chance to cause some damage - that's only one shot causing damage. To be truely effective against flyers the Soul Grinders needs more shots.

I think this thread should be in Tactics.

Daemon Princes are actually pretty horrible against Monstrous Creatures, the lack of T6 or Eternal Warrior means that they can never get into CC with those things, unless you want to get IDed.
Also, DPs can't shoot anything maybe witchfires but from math point of view and the cost of it turning DPs into Psykers I think there are better ways to spend those points...

Soul Grinders can shoot and kill everything the DP can in CC as effectively.
And they don't die to normal bolters and stuff due to AV13.
They are slow though so there's the downside to it.
Also the phelgm is so good that it's almost autotake for the soulgrinder.
But then it can only snap fire the other one...

I would say overall the Soul Grinders are just better for the buck as DPs are overpriced for what they can do.

I think its more up to what you need the dp/sg to do

Do you need a fast and difficult to hit assault unit to back up ur bt?then pick up the dps

Do you need long range support with a strong backfield defensive capability?
Then grqb the sg

i run 2 bloodthirsters 2 soulgrinders with phlegm, and a daemon prince. works well for me

Bloodthirsters and LoC are much better IMO than a regular DP, ven comparing the slightly more expensive cost. For example: a LoC is 10 points more expensive (ish, i dont have codex here) than a generic DP, however has better stats and 2 psycher levels.

If you already have 2 BT's, i think SG's are the wiser choice here, for reasons stated above. If you want a CC SG, give it mark of slaanesh and the flamer weapon, run it up then flame and charge a sqaud.

Thanks great points I was hoping the idea of having 3 SG s would take care of any flyers . I love the idea of the chaos m DP and drake I wonder if I can make that work in a 1500 point list.

Tbh your question should be rephrased: 3 grinders or KHORNE daemon princes, because not all DPs were created equal.

Lets compare DP daemon allegiance:

Slaanesh: Considered the strongest all round option. The ability to take the lash for anti air (+its synergy with iron arm, which of course you will be trying to get), as well as fleet movement makes this choice the strongest and most reliable DP. Having a ranged attack allows it to effectively stay in the air and still contribute to the game.

Nurgle: Another powerful choice, although more niche in its application. Nurgle DPs with Baleswords are some of the best monstrous creature/character hunters in the game. A good counter to wraithknights and riptides, just be sure to get iron arm/ use presicence/ successfully use gimmoire/ roll well, as if you do not kill an MC first, then its returning smash attacks have a deccent chance to ID you. Shrouded can be useful, though no sweeping advance can hurt. Must stop flying to be effective.

Tzeentch: Most survivable due to re-roll 1's, can be used effectively both flying or in melee. Staff for 8 str can be nice vs some targets. Often works well as a Grimmoire carrier.

Khorne:.......Nothing. Seriously. Off the top of my head I can think of nothing that a Khorne DP can do, which a different god DP couldn't do better.

With this said, I would certainly take grinders over khorne DPs. Vs the other gods....that is a more difficult question. Because of this your BTs and grinders compliment each other quite well.

I believe that grinders would work better in your list when running 2 BTs, and here's why:
As people have noted already Grinders are slower than Princes, and therefore they will take more fire when trying to reach the opposition. However, they are also immune to many weapons, and vs most threats are certainly far more durable than a DP (Iron arm +3 T aside).

The solution of this is simple, use your fast Blood Thirsters to cover the board quickly and disable those anti armour weapons asap. Once this has been achieved the opposing army should have little left to threaten the walkers, who are then free to engage who they please.

Furthermore, the Grinders can be used to deal with the greatest threats to the Thirsters. Enemy Space Wolf Rune Priest in cover, which lets him attack first wound on 2's and has instant death? Use a grinder! (Read as: Ginders are an alternative to grenades).

Personally, I am trying to run 3 grinder lists at the moment.
I set them up as:
Soul Grinder: Slaanesh Daemon, Torrent flamer
Soul Grinder: Slaanesh Daemon, Torrent flamer
Soul Grinder: Nurgle/ Khorne Daemon, Phlegm cannon

I personally prefer the torrent flamer over the phlegm cannon. It is more reliable, is great at clearing hordes off objectives and also helps prevent tarpitting. I take Slaanesh Daemon to add dependability through Fleet charging, as well as allowing them to cover some more distance quickly if needs be. Normally they will be advancing asap across the middle of the board, burning away troops and supporting the FMCs.

However the phlegm cannon is still useful however, and is very viable vs tau battle suits and wraithguard (Like we wont be seeing either of these guys huh). People often rave about nurgle phlegm combo, however in a trip grinder list it will simply be left for last, or markerlit up, so I often take khorne instead just to save some points.

(Edit: Damn, noticed I necro'd this thread, sorry. Still, might be useful for some people).

I personally prefer playing now CD with csm allies and my list includes FW, a DP of nurgle with grim lire, and a DP of tzeentch as heavy support. And from csm I take be'lakor and a bale drake. + troops. Believe all the MC in this list are tough to kill and due to telepathy,biomancy and grimoire they are unkillable. But I like nurgle grinders too.. They are tough, they have answer for almost everything and they have shroud...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also cast invisibility on the nurgle DP with balesword and start monster hunting woohooo

Spot-on analysis, Bill.

 Makutsu wrote:
I think this thread should be in Tactics.

Daemon Princes are actually pretty horrible against Monstrous Creatures, the lack of T6 or Eternal Warrior means that they can never get into CC with those things, unless you want to get IDed.
Also, DPs can't shoot anything maybe witchfires but from math point of view and the cost of it turning DPs into Psykers I think there are better ways to spend those points...

Soul Grinders can shoot and kill everything the DP can in CC as effectively.
And they don't die to normal bolters and stuff due to AV13.
They are slow though so there's the downside to it.
Also the phelgm is so good that it's almost autotake for the soulgrinder.
But then it can only snap fire the other one...

I would say overall the Soul Grinders are just better for the buck as DPs are overpriced for what they can do.

This guy couldn't be more incorrect.... The only MC that's punking a daemon prince is the swarm lord.

Daemon Princes punk trygons, tervigons, wraithknights, riptides you name it... Their high WS and Initiative makes them nigh unstoppable. with the exception of the swarm lord...

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
I think this thread should be in Tactics.

Daemon Princes are actually pretty horrible against Monstrous Creatures, the lack of T6 or Eternal Warrior means that they can never get into CC with those things, unless you want to get IDed.
Also, DPs can't shoot anything maybe witchfires but from math point of view and the cost of it turning DPs into Psykers I think there are better ways to spend those points...

Soul Grinders can shoot and kill everything the DP can in CC as effectively.
And they don't die to normal bolters and stuff due to AV13.
They are slow though so there's the downside to it.
Also the phelgm is so good that it's almost autotake for the soulgrinder.
But then it can only snap fire the other one...

I would say overall the Soul Grinders are just better for the buck as DPs are overpriced for what they can do.

This guy couldn't be more incorrect.... The only MC that's punking a daemon prince is the swarm lord.

Daemon Princes punk trygons, tervigons, wraithknights, riptides you name it... Their high WS and Initiative makes them nigh unstoppable. with the exception of the swarm lord...

....Until you get hit by a single str 10 smash attack and die. Daemon princes, when buffed with gimmoire/ prescience/ iron arm are very capable. Fighting a MC without those things however is risky and could cause you to lose your 300+ points model to one hit.
If you don't kill the target in the first turn, then he stands half decent chance at taking you out.

I think his concerns are pretty valid.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
I think this thread should be in Tactics.

Daemon Princes are actually pretty horrible against Monstrous Creatures, the lack of T6 or Eternal Warrior means that they can never get into CC with those things, unless you want to get IDed.
Also, DPs can't shoot anything maybe witchfires but from math point of view and the cost of it turning DPs into Psykers I think there are better ways to spend those points...

Soul Grinders can shoot and kill everything the DP can in CC as effectively.
And they don't die to normal bolters and stuff due to AV13.
They are slow though so there's the downside to it.
Also the phelgm is so good that it's almost autotake for the soulgrinder.
But then it can only snap fire the other one...

I would say overall the Soul Grinders are just better for the buck as DPs are overpriced for what they can do.

This guy couldn't be more incorrect.... The only MC that's punking a daemon prince is the swarm lord.

Daemon Princes punk trygons, tervigons, wraithknights, riptides you name it... Their high WS and Initiative makes them nigh unstoppable. with the exception of the swarm lord...

....Until you get hit by a single str 10 smash attack and die. Daemon princes, when buffed with gimmoire/ prescience/ iron arm are very capable. Fighting a MC without those things however is risky and could cause you to lose your 300+ points model to one hit.
If you don't kill the target in the first turn, then he stands half decent chance at taking you out.

I think his concerns are pretty valid.

Unless fighting against mirror match or swarmy, no MC has a higher Initiative than the DP. The DP is hitting them on 3's, usually wounding on 3's or 2's.... DP will punk them before they get to swing.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
I think this thread should be in Tactics.

Daemon Princes are actually pretty horrible against Monstrous Creatures, the lack of T6 or Eternal Warrior means that they can never get into CC with those things, unless you want to get IDed.
Also, DPs can't shoot anything maybe witchfires but from math point of view and the cost of it turning DPs into Psykers I think there are better ways to spend those points...

Soul Grinders can shoot and kill everything the DP can in CC as effectively.
And they don't die to normal bolters and stuff due to AV13.
They are slow though so there's the downside to it.
Also the phelgm is so good that it's almost autotake for the soulgrinder.
But then it can only snap fire the other one...

I would say overall the Soul Grinders are just better for the buck as DPs are overpriced for what they can do.

This guy couldn't be more incorrect.... The only MC that's punking a daemon prince is the swarm lord.

Daemon Princes punk trygons, tervigons, wraithknights, riptides you name it... Their high WS and Initiative makes them nigh unstoppable. with the exception of the swarm lord...

Against an Eldar Avatar the Demon Prince also doesnt fair welk, his ws 10 and initiative 10 are a beating.

If you want to hunt MCs, you need the Black Mace. And you NEED to kill the enemy MC before it gets to swing.

MoN helps a lot if you actually do have to take a hit.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
I think this thread should be in Tactics.

Daemon Princes are actually pretty horrible against Monstrous Creatures, the lack of T6 or Eternal Warrior means that they can never get into CC with those things, unless you want to get IDed.
Also, DPs can't shoot anything maybe witchfires but from math point of view and the cost of it turning DPs into Psykers I think there are better ways to spend those points...

Soul Grinders can shoot and kill everything the DP can in CC as effectively.
And they don't die to normal bolters and stuff due to AV13.
They are slow though so there's the downside to it.
Also the phelgm is so good that it's almost autotake for the soulgrinder.
But then it can only snap fire the other one...

I would say overall the Soul Grinders are just better for the buck as DPs are overpriced for what they can do.

This guy couldn't be more incorrect.... The only MC that's punking a daemon prince is the swarm lord.

Daemon Princes punk trygons, tervigons, wraithknights, riptides you name it... Their high WS and Initiative makes them nigh unstoppable. with the exception of the swarm lord...

....Until you get hit by a single str 10 smash attack and die. Daemon princes, when buffed with gimmoire/ prescience/ iron arm are very capable. Fighting a MC without those things however is risky and could cause you to lose your 300+ points model to one hit.
If you don't kill the target in the first turn, then he stands half decent chance at taking you out.

I think his concerns are pretty valid.

Unless fighting against mirror match or swarmy, no MC has a higher Initiative than the DP. The DP is hitting them on 3's, usually wounding on 3's or 2's.... DP will punk them before they get to swing.

No, he wont. Initiative isn't the issue here.

First of all consider the Toughness value of MC's. It is almost always 6 or more, sometimes as high as 8. So unless you are using smash, you will be wounding on 4-6's. If you do use smash then you will only have 3-4 attacks per turn.

This, combined with a 66% chance to hit, then a 84% chance to wound, followed by any invulnerable save they have, leaves a very high percent chance that an opposing mc will survive at least 1 round with your DP. Remember MC's have 4 or more wounds normally, so you would need to hit all your attacks, wound with them all, and have the opponent fail all the invulnerable saves he has. If this happens a lot for you, then congratulations you must be one lucky guy, because statistically all MC's that start a fight with a DP from full wounds have a decent chance of surviving one round of attacks, and so will be able to use their smash attacks.

The only exception to this is a DP of Nurgle, because when kitted out with a balesword he only needs to do one wound to take an MC out, which is much more likely to happen.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
5 FMCs is really fun

For Who!!??!!!! Not many armies can handle such a thing...especially in a tournement...even when your opponent has a metric ton of flyers and counter-flyers...

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
If you want to hunt MCs, you need the Black Mace. And you NEED to kill the enemy MC before it gets to swing.

MoN helps a lot if you actually do have to take a hit.

Except no... Daemons have no way in either codex to get MoN. Personally, I use Nurgle Grinders and Phlegm over the Princes. Meq killing pie plates work very well in my meta.