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A couple things came up in our Endless game yesterday that I thought I would ask about.

Does a Chemist get to roll for Last Drop, giving a chance to keep a "used" item, when she discards an item for an Alchemical Bomb, or Magical Concoction?

Can the Sorcerer's Sky Bolt target the same square with more than one AOE? Note: this question can also be applied to the Gunsmith's Barrage
Is each Sky Bolt AOE concidered a seperate attack? In other words, does a model take multiple damage rolls if it is under multiple AOEs or just one for being included in the attack as a whole?

For the Pugilist's Cross Counter and similar retaliation abilities does the countering model turn to face its attacker?
As written two Pugilists with Cross Counter would counter attack back and forth until one of them is dead. We felt that was a bit extreme and played that model's can't counter during their own activation. What is the intent of the rule?
Relating to the last question, can a pugilist counter multiple attacks from one model in the same activation, such as a Rune Fencer's Magma Strike followed by a Main Gauche basic attack?

The chemist just discards items for those abilities, so Last Drop does not trigger.

Each AoE is considered a separate attack, but Sky Bolt requires you to select 3 targets. So you can get 2 or more attacks on a single model via overlap.

The counter abilities cannot trigger other counters nor trigger more than once in a single phase.

I'll get these noted in the rules.

A few more:

Is the Kappa's Mischevious command intended to damage enemies?

What is the timing on the Dark Priest's Aetheric Void? If I use Purge or similar commands to remove the status effects is the effect instantly re-applied while a model is in range?

Mischevious deals damage to Enemies OR Allies. Kappa are luck monsters.

Aetheric Void places a beneficial effect on a Dark Blood model. Each time it 'ticks' (ie at the Status Phase of the model's turn) it applies Silence[1] to models within 3 Squares. This effect applies 4 times before expiring.

 miskatonicalum wrote:
Mischevious deals damage to Enemies OR Allies. Kappa are luck monsters.

Aetheric Void places a beneficial effect on a Dark Blood model. Each time it 'ticks' (ie at the Status Phase of the model's turn) it applies Silence[1] to models within 3 Squares. This effect applies 4 times before expiring.

Thanks! That all makes sense. I'll have to put the Kappa on my list of monsters to try out one of these days. It looks like a lot of fun.

Sorry, wrong post.......

On to the next round of queries...


Is Push Back mandatory? I do not see where it says otherwise so I assume all affected models must be pushed the full distance.

For Push Back targeting a model on the direct diagonal from the attacker how is it decided which direction the model is pushed? For example a Gel wizard casts Aquablast on a model in the square directly northwest of the Gel. Since there is no diagonal movement the model must either be pushed 2 squares North, or 2 squares West. Who decides which direction it goes?


This isn't really a question and might be better put as its own topic, but...

has anyone played any games with the Mandragora? I love plants and want to put it in a list, but I don't see how to get much use out of it. The Mandragora seems weak to me. Outside of the Summoner I can't see a reason to bring it over other 1C choices. What am I missing? Its biggest shortcoming in my mind is that none of its MAG commands do any damage, and none of the status effects last more than one turn. Photsynthesis seems to be the big draw, but then you only get one MAG command to spam all game.

An interesting observation on the 4 basic (as I see them) 1C elemental monsters: Barghest, Kappa, Kirin, and Mandragora. The Kappa (water) and Kirin (air) creatures tend to decimate their respective opposites the Barghest (Fire), and Mandragora (Earth) on the battlefield. The Kirin itself seems dangerously close to being 2C power level.

Push Back will be based on your facing. I'll make sure that gets clarified.

I'll look into tweaking the Kappa and Mandragora so they are more in line with their opposites.

For the Thief's 'Copy Command' passive command is it usage limit once per command or once per model?

More clearly, can my thief use Cover Fire from Gunner A one turn and then use Cover Fire from Gunner B the next, or can I just copy Cover Fire once, period?

Thief can use Copy Command any number of times, but they can only use Cover Fire once, before needing to use Copy Command again. This can be used to get another use of Cover Fire, from any source.

 miskatonicalum wrote:
...but they can only use Cover Fire once, before needing to use Copy Command again.

Hmmmm... The way you decribe it makes 'Copy Command' sound like an action. Is 'Copy Command' supposed to be an Action Command? In the current book and cards it is listed as a passive ability. I had been interpreting it as the Thief could use the first command of any and all 1-2C models he was currently adjacent to, similar to the Adept's core ability, Learning, but only ever copy a single model's command once per game.

Being once again taught not to assume I have a few more questions relating to the Thief's 'Copy Command'

-Does "gain the first non-passive command listed on a model's Command List" mean the first command a specific model has chosen, or the first command listed on the model's card even if the command wasn't taken for this game?

-Can the Thief have multiple stolen commands at one time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW - I just want to make sure someone is aware that the Chemist page has the Berserker's Command list in the current rules PDF.

Sorry, I misspoke.

I'll probably put a little clarification in the PDF.

This is how it is supposed to work:

End your movement next to a 1 or 2C model. Elect to Copy the first non-passive command listed on the model's command list (not selected).

Even if the model moves away, the Thief 'keeps' the Command.

After a single use, the extra Command goes away.

The Thief must once again end it's Movement Phase next to a 1 or 2C model to copy the same or another command. the Thief cannot copy more than one command at a time.


I'll make sure the Chemist gets fixed.

 Galen wrote:

BTW - I just want to make sure someone is aware that the Chemist page has the Berserker's Command list in the current rules PDF.

Thanks. I've been working on cleaning up the Unit Pages (The EFT Cards are the most update Command Rules), and must have Copy-Pasta'd wrong.


Though maybe ANGREH Chemist can be a variant

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Galen wrote:

BTW - I just want to make sure someone is aware that the Chemist page has the Berserker's Command list in the current rules PDF.

Thanks. I've been working on cleaning up the Unit Pages (The EFT Cards are the most update Command Rules), and must have Copy-Pasta'd wrong.


Though maybe ANGREH Chemist can be a variant

Angry Chemist?

miskatonicalum wrote:
This is how it is supposed to work:

Wow...That is really a lot better than I thought. That makes it very useful, and I will have to give it a try.

Cyporiean wrote:
Though maybe ANGREH Chemist can be a variant

I'd be up for that You all really seem to have fun with you games. I love to see that. I also read the nice things Secret Weapon Minis said about you guys.

In all seriousness the Chemist would be a good choice for a dwarf variant model. The knight would be high on the list too.

I pulled this from the Visiting Hours thread to try to keep that thread on topic, even as I felt this needed discussion.

 miskatonicalum wrote:

Gunsmith

Monster Sniper
Dragon Blast and Freeze Volley are great AoEs, but they will flat out wreck any Large Models. Even with only a MAG of 3, lined up right, you’ll get 3 or 4 attacks against a Large Model, if just one of them hits, your Status Effect (Blind or Stop) gets put on them, which are great against particularly bruiser-like baddies. You’ll only get so many attacks, with the Gunsmith’s Low MP, so make them count, make sure to hit as many squares of the Large Model as possible.

WHAT!? This is not how I have been interpreting the rules.

Here is the first and last sentence of the first paragragh of the multi-target section (pg 41) taken directly from the Endless rulebook: Some Commands may be able to hit more than one model, applying damage, or an effect to all of them.... When rolling dice for a Multi-target command, the model using the command rolls its dice once per target and each defender rolls their defense dice to compare to the attacker’s result. That wording states that each model in the area of a multi-target Command rolls defense once against a roll by the attacker. I found no mention of multi-target attacks hitting a defender more than once in either the the multi-target rules or the large model rules. Is there something I am missing? This is an extreme disadvantage for large models. Is the intention that Earth Trolls should be able to be one-shot by any Sorcerer with an AOE 1?


While rereading the Multi-target section I also ran into this curious wording: Unlike other Multi-Target commands, Around has no specific target. As such, it does not require line of sight to affect models.
Does this mean that Cones and Lines NEED line of sight to affect models? If I have a line 4 and there are three models in a row do I only hit the first one since I don't have line of sight to the ones behind? That would seem to defeat the purpose of a line attack.

That wording will be fixed, Multi-Target commands are intended to make an attack against each square that they cover, not just each model. Thanks for catching that!

Yes, any Large Model is at a disadvantage against AoEs, but also note that the Earth Troll can one-shot a Sorcerer, or several if it it gets its own Line Attack off (hitting 8 squares with ATK 4)


From the Line of Sight Multi-Target Section of the rules; pg 45

Multi-Target Commands require Line of Sight to the center square, or starting square, to target that location. All other squares within the area are hit, regardless of Line of Sight, or height variation.

For every MT command but Around, you need Line of Sight to the center/first square. For Line/Cone this is the square immediately in front of the caster, for Wide/AoE this is the center square of the AoE itself.

Beyond that first/center square, you do not need Line of Sight.

You learn something new every day.

 miskatonicalum wrote:

Yes, any Large Model is at a disadvantage against AoEs, but also note that the Earth Troll can one-shot a Sorcerer, or several if it it gets its own Line Attack off (hitting 8 squares with ATK 4)

Just to be a pain I'll point out that in the above example all the dice have to roll perfectly for the Earth Troll to kill a Sorcerer with Boulder Kick. Average damage to the Sorcerer would be between 1 and 2 hp damage. The Sorcerer with Deep Freeze or Fireball and a direct shot can hit the Troll 3 times for an average of 1.5 hp damage per roll, or 4.5 total damage average, but has the potential for up to 15 damage if dice go in their favor. Not to mention that the Sorcerer has a longer threat range (in a vacuum) because the Earth Troll has to forfeit its movement to create the boulder to throw.

Oh well. I'll just have to remember to bring an archer to deal with all those pesky sorcerers.

You're completely right, those AoEs are definitely scary to a Large Model, its one of the trade offs for getting wider Cone/Line/Around/Wide attacks and blocking more area from enemy movement, along with their Basic Attack, hitting two squares instead of 1!

 miskatonicalum wrote:
along with their Basic Attack, hitting two squares instead of 1!

This might also need to be clarified in the rules. A Basic attack is listed as ATT, RNG 1 in the rulebook, which is by definition single target. I haven't found any wording that changes that rule for large models. The attack you are describing sounds like a line 1, multi-target attack.

In the EFT classes breakdown it is mentioned that the Dark Priest's Profane Touch would do X2 damage to Holy models. Was this a typo or is this how the dark/holy elemental interaction is supposed to work? The rulebook has Dark element attacking Holy (and vice versus) getting +2 dice, not x2.

 Galen wrote:
In the EFT classes breakdown it is mentioned that the Dark Priest's Profane Touch would do X2 damage to Holy models. Was this a typo or is this how the dark/holy elemental interaction is supposed to work? The rulebook has Dark element attacking Holy (and vice versus) getting +2 dice, not x2.

The blood entry where it says that the Dark/Holy interaction is +2 is incorrect. The other 4 elements do +2/-2 dice with their elemental mirror (earth to air and fire to water, etc...) Dark and Holy is x2. It's a typo.

I'm going to go through my book over the next few days with a red pen and catch the few mistakes we've found while reading the prerelease versions of the books.

Holy v Dark should be x2, this will get fixed.

Thanks for the catch!

I can''t remember if I've asked any of these before, but they came up in my last game.

Dragoon - On The Bounce - is a "completed" attack different than a "successful" attack? Do I get to move if I don't do damage?

Dragoon - On the Bounce/Jump interaction - Can I get movement from On the Bounce after coming down from a Jump? Jump says make a basic attack and end your turn. On the Bounce says move after making a basic attack. I'm not sure which rule takes precident.

Summoner - Summons last 4 turns. When exactly do Summons disappear? At the end of the summoner's 4th turn when effects trigger, after the summon has taken 4 turns of its own, or one of any number of other times?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
One more thing...

I have played that the Vial of Miasma's dark blood effect is concidered "beneficial" and thus would replace any other buff the using model had on it. Is that correct?

"Completed" is, "after making a"

You can jump and then bounce. Think of it this way, You jump in, make your attack, and then On the Bounce Triggers, allowing the move, and then your turn ends. I believe we hashed this out on the old forums before coming over here to Dakka. Perhaps Cy and Misk have access to those forums and can find those things again.

I believe (can't remember how we decided on it) that Summons disappear on at the end of the turn. So they come out, activate, go through their 4 turn life and then at the end of that 4th turn they disappear. This might need some clarification, Misk has final say.

Vial of Miasma is a beneficial effect because it uses the {X} tag at the end of it

On the Bounce takes place before the Dragoon ends their turn following a Jump. The reason for using the 'and end their turn' phrase was to indicate that you do not get a full turn, as Jump is an ability that occurs across two turns. The Dragoon does not get to perform another Move/Act Phase after completeing their Jump from the previous round.

Summons last for 4 rounds, as in Game Rounds, rather than Model Turns. They are removed from play at the end of the 4th Round rather than after their turn. Theoretically, a Summoner could summon on one turn, order shift behind the Summon, let them get all 4 of their turns in, and then use Aetheric Gate to make an attack after the Summon goes, but before they disappear.

Any effect with a duration in hard brackets [#] is a Status Effect. Any effect with a duration in curved brackets {#} is a Beneficial Effect.

Whoo hoo! I was right

 miskatonicalum wrote:
On the Bounce takes place before the Dragoon ends their turn following a Jump. The reason for using the 'and end their turn' phrase was to indicate that you do not get a full turn, as Jump is an ability that occurs across two turns. The Dragoon does not get to perform another Move/Act Phase after completeing their Jump from the previous round.

Summons last for 4 rounds, as in Game Rounds, rather than Model Turns. They are removed from play at the end of the 4th Round rather than after their turn. Theoretically, a Summoner could summon on one turn, order shift behind the Summon, let them get all 4 of their turns in, and then use Aetheric Gate to make an attack after the Summon goes, but before they disappear.

Any effect with a duration in hard brackets [#] is a Status Effect. Any effect with a duration in curved brackets {#} is a Beneficial Effect.

Ugh. I should have remembered the {X} [X] designations.
I think it is time for me to read through the whole rulebook again. I tend to go straight to the cards now, and just run the rules from memory, but then I start forgetting things that are clearly spelled out.
As always, thanks for the quick responses you guys.

Relating to the Summoning duration question: A summon cannot activate the round it is summoned. Is the summoning round part of the duration, or is the first round the summon gets to act considered "round one" for duration purposes? It sounds like you effectively answered that above, in that the summon gets 4 rounds of activation before finally disappearing.


Next question...again this might be something I've asked in the old forums. Concerning Bladewall(Rune Fencer) and Flamewall(Fire Troll,) can the same model get attacked by a wall command more than once in a single turn?


...and what seems like a stupid question, but I need to ask anyway. Are the Beastmen's traps destroyed after triggering? I don't see anything saying that they are, but in many games traps are one use and go away after being triggered, so I thought I should check.

Sorry, that was phrased badly, a Summon 'exists' for 4 rounds, but only gets a turn in 3.

If a model tries to move into a Bladewall or Flamewall, suffers pushback out of them, and then are pushbacked into the wall again, they can be affected each time. That would be an interesting strategy to keep bouncing a model off the wall.

The Beastmen's traps are not destroyed by triggering, they have HP and defense stats.

 miskatonicalum wrote:
If a model tries to move into a Bladewall or Flamewall, suffers pushback out of them, and then are pushbacked into the wall again, they can be affected each time. That would be an interesting strategy to keep bouncing a model off the wall.

What happens if a model is pushed laterally into a blade wall for more than one square by the same action? Does he take damage for each square he move into, or just once?

Similarly, what happens to a large based model if it moves two of its squares in to a bladewall at the same time? Does it suffers two rolls?