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Hi all,

Been away from the game for a while, and looking to get back into it. I'm curious to know what are the current top tier armies in this edition of WFB and why?

 JesusFreak wrote:
Hi all,

Been away from the game for a while, and looking to get back into it. I'm curious to know what are the current top tier armies in this edition of WFB and why?

This edition has no clear top tier. Step up has done a lot to level the tiers out, as once everyone has a chance to swing, we have death all over the table.

Of the 8th edition books, I'd say that Orcs and Tomb Kings are below 50%, Empire and Daemons right in the middle, and Vampires just above middle.
Of the late 7th edition books, I'd say beasts are under and skaven are over.

Everything is close enough to compete, and you don't see any singular build running rampant.

-Matt

Note you didn't mention Warriors Matt - I don't get to see a variety of armies, so intrigued as to where you would rank them now.

Warriors Ogres and Skaven are top of the pile
DoC Empire VC in the middle I'd agree
O&G, TK at the bottom

I don't even count WE, Brets or Dwarves anymore. I've never played a bret army, dwarves and Woodies are way too outdated.

There are always some builds that will be challenging with other builds.
Beastmen can do okay but are usually pretty one dimensional I think just about everybody is more balanced except Warriors (broken)

There are things i would complain about for each of the new books that limit or make some choices much better than others (I would prefer a book with multiple good choices)

I'd say Lizardmen are as potent as Skaven, if not more. Slaan are still super-potent and hard to crack. Salamanders got really good, along with Skinks. They're not especially versatile, but competitive Skaven lists are largely the same, too.

I agree lizardmen are very strong but Dark Elves are other an extremely strong and versatile: unlimited dice per spell, dagger, unkillable lord, hydras, every single unit is useful.

Lizardmen / Skaven / OK / Dark Elves are top tier.

Wood Elves / Beastmen are bottom tier.

Everything else is somewhere in between.

If you had to nominate *the* best army, it's Lizardmen due to overpowered Slann and the importance of magic in 8th.

Once you add in ETC comp darkelves an lizardmen nearly disappear from the strong armies.

I went with Skaven... lots of things you can do with these guys

The new FAQ for vampires made scream lists stupidly good.
Can't over-run from a crumble wipe out, and you can scream into a combat you're not part of.

No panic, no breaking. Taking game swinging variables out of the game makes any army stronger.

If you don't see vampires near the top in your area, I'd bet that:
1) you run in a restricted comp area
2) you don't have vampire players in your area
3) Your vampire players are doing it wrong

We don't ETC over here.
I really find its arbitrary

Niteware wrote:
Note you didn't mention Warriors Matt - I don't get to see a variety of armies, so intrigued as to where you would rank them now.

I haven't ranked warriors yet. It's still a fairly new book, and I've not seen enough of them to rank them. While daemons are newer, I've seen and played against daemons enough to get a feel for them (better than tomb kings, worse the ogres/vampires).

-Matt

Lizardmen for undercosted magic and core, along with Cold Blooded. Skaven for undercosted everything(lol), as well as big stuff that really is deadly. Dark Elves also for being undercosted and having Eternal Hatred.

Also i'd say Warriors of Chaos, Ogres and Vampires are all up there. Warriors for pure combat power as well as Ogres, and their mixing with ranged attacks. Vampires for magic and special choices and such.

That's interesting as at the last etc tournament here lizzies placed first and second

Oh my mistake, I meant that the armies I named were all the best ones and/or overpowered.

Lizards, Dwarves, Dark elves, High Elves, Wood Elves, and Brettonians I wouldn't suggest for competition, only because they are still due to get an 8th edition army book.
If you want an army with longevity, pick one that already has an 8th edition rulebook.

-Matt

Wood Elves actually won the Australian Masters just recently haha!
Not a deathstar army either, relatively standard build

Don't count us greenies out!

 GhostxHeart wrote:
Wood Elves actually won the Australian Masters just recently haha!
Not a deathstar army either, relatively standard build

Don't count us greenies out!

As good of a player as Chris Cousins is, the soft comp system used in the Australian Masters means all of the lists are ludicrously weak compared to the armies you would see at tournaments using other major comp systems or out of the book.

I would rank the top 5 armies for "out of the book warhammer" as:

Skaven
Lizardmen
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Warriors of Chaos

Yeah I still play Dwarves to great affect and victory. Id say they are still quite competitive.

Regarding the poll and some posts - I don't see how WoC are even close to be viable competitive.

They weren't that good pre-nerf and I don't see how they could possibly keep up with stuff like Lizardmen or DE post-nerf. Hell, even my Goblins table them easily now...

What are you actually going to hurt WoC with as gobbo? Just holding them up doesn't do anything. Fanatics can be taken out with warhounds or something else cheap. You can bring some manglers and squig herds, but they can just bring some chimeras with fire breath and poof half of you away. None of your heroes are going to beat WoC heroes.

WoC doesn't have a lot of fodder. It doesn't have much shooting. But it has nearly everything else any other army has. It's a gigantic list and all of it is useful at something or other. Your biggest problem is probably getting your army to synergize.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Regarding the poll and some posts - I don't see how WoC are even close to be viable competitive.

They weren't that good pre-nerf and I don't see how they could possibly keep up with stuff like Lizardmen or DE post-nerf. Hell, even my Goblins table them easily now...

To be fair I think that Skaven/Lizardmen/Dark Elves are in a class of their own. Very few lists can hold a candle to them uncomped.

That said I think WoC are currently strong as a hard counter against Ogres, and that the ability to spam strong flyers is good in my meta at least. Interestingly though I do think that OnG are a solid counter against them due to their ability to generate static CRES and ability to deal with armour.

The other book that hasn't been discussed is Chaos Dwarves. They can be very powerful but I still think are below the big 3. The main issue with them is people are so unused to playing against them that when they actually do they don't know how to handle them.

Skaven, Lizardmen and Ogres are the top books by far, with DE following along if they're not capped at a max of 6 dice per spell.

WoC are a very strong army on paper but people are still getting used to them to a certain extent. I think they definitely have the potential to move onto the same level as the other big 3.

I agree with Sneaky_Gobbo about O&G being a good counter to WoC, the biggest tournament in the UK is coming up and WoC are, predictably, one of the most represented armies but so are O&G- not only because they're a solid army in their own right, but also because they can do very well in a Ogre/WoC driven metagame that has smallish units of armoured and expensive models.

At the bottom of the pile of uncomped is Wood Elves, who have big problems with the metagame as they just lack suitable answers to armour. However, if you balance the game out by taking the edge off the top books and giving WE a bit of a boost then they do become a very viable army- for example, there is a massive difference in power level between a Wood Elf army that has has 2400pts to play in a 2400pt event, and a WE army that has 2600pts to play in a 2400pt event.

DukeRustfield wrote:
What are you actually going to hurt WoC with as gobbo? Just holding them up doesn't do anything. Fanatics can be taken out with warhounds or something else cheap. You can bring some manglers and squig herds, but they can just bring some chimeras with fire breath and poof half of you away. None of your heroes are going to beat WoC heroes.

WoC doesn't have a lot of fodder. It doesn't have much shooting. But it has nearly everything else any other army has. It's a gigantic list and all of it is useful at something or other. Your biggest problem is probably getting your army to synergize.

Chaos Doggies cannot be used to release Fanatics as they are shot down by NG archers before most of the time, every heavy cavalry is useless vs. Goblins. Goblins excel at taking out heavily armored, elite units and that applies for most WoC models. Furthermore, they have to footslog over the entire battlefield due to comp Goblins (haha, "competitive" Goblins...) maxing out on anything ranged they got + Pump Wagons etc. Their lack of shooting is a god-blessing for Wolf Riders and Mangler Squigs. You either table WoC armies before the end of the game or get enough VP and then tie up the remains for the rest of the game with big tarpits. WoC have nothing viable to beat Goblin SCR - I'd laugh at everyone bringing Chaos Maurauders now

It mostly is about 2 Doom Divaz, 2 Rock Lobbaz, 2 Mangler Squigs, a few Pump wagons etc., 4-6 Spear Chukkaz, 2-3 Goblin Wolf Chariots, Tarpits + Herders. Of course, no Goblin hero will win vs. a WoC hero but every Goblin player who gets his General etc. into a duel with another player did sth. wrong. Just challenge that miiiiighty SO STRONK Chaos Hero with a champion and let him have fun wasting all attacks on him while you just get Steadfast anyway.

WoC cannot break Steadfast right now which is lovely if you're playing an army such as Skaven and Goblins.

DukeRustfield wrote:
What are you actually going to hurt WoC with as gobbo?

2x Doom Divers, 2x Rock Lobbas, 2x Mangler Squigs and 2x Pump Wagons with ignore armour saves. You also have Foot of Gork (unless you're playing an entirely Goblin list) which is pretty brutal vs low model count high armour models.

Having lists with multiple monsters/chariots coming back into the game could also make their Bolt Throwers worth taking again, they've been out of favour for a little while due to a few changes in rules mechanics.

and squigs, 2 attacks hitting on four wounding on threes is awesome against low model armies

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
and squigs, 2 attacks hitting on four wounding on threes is awesome against low model armies

...especially if they come at 8 pts / model.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
and squigs, 2 attacks hitting on four wounding on threes is awesome against low model armies

...especially if they come at 8 pts / model.

And leadership 5, no command, and characters can't join.
They've got some downsides that don't show up on the profile.
If they didn't go wild, I'd like them more.

-Matt

I'm surprised to see WoC getting so many votes in the poll. Sure, they're a good army, but I wouldn't quite consider them top-tier, let alone the best army available.

 The Shadow wrote:
I'm surprised to see WoC getting so many votes in the poll. Sure, they're a good army, but I wouldn't quite consider them top-tier, let alone the best army available.

WoC were the most famous army pre-nerf because they allowed you to faceroll any mediocre or worse opponent. I guess that's where those votes come from, most likely people getting beaten by WoC in the past. WoC weren't a huge threat in comp and have always been a mediocre army in competitive play that got now nerfed and is thus even worse. Solid mid <=> lower mid tier now imo. Right on par with Tomb Kings maybe...or Empire.

The main downfall, imo, is not being able to properly break Steadfast while not having any (viable) Steadfast units yourself.