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Iracundus wrote:

 Traejun wrote:

That is correct. Imperium rules the sky an orbit, which means that, in time, they will recover the planet completely.

Incorrect. It has already been shown with quoted GW evidence that Chaos rules the immediate orbit above Cadia. READ the evidence.

Seriously the reason why this debate even exists in the first place is because people keep refusing to look at the evidence and insist on trying to make stuff up or repeating other people's made up stuff. GW's final campaign newsletter and the actual campaign raw results themselves clearly show Chaos in control within local Cadian space ("Chaos rules the skies above Cadia"), while the Imperium has the advantage at the sector space level. The Cadian system's Imperial Control was 29.4%. Imperial Control at sector level was 100%. That precisely matches what GW has said. A side with 29.4% control does not "rule the skies above Cadia".

Chaos has local dominance in and around Cadia, while the Imperial Navy has the advantage elsewhere. The concept really isn't that complex or hard to understand if people just actually read.

II don't believe that's correct - http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Eye_of_Terror_Campaign

Looking for a link to the official GW outcome report.

 Traejun wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Cadia will fall. The Segmentum Obscuris will burn. The Segmentum Solar will be breached. Terra will be besieged. The End Times will come.

Boom, son. Pack your bags, boys. War's over... we're going home.

Good; all ships, come about one-eighty-degrees, spin up plasma reactors, standby for Warp jump to Kar Duniash.

 Traejun wrote:

II don't believe that's correct - http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Eye_of_Terror_Campaign

Looking for a link to the official GW outcome report.

You try to reference an error infested wiki over the official newsletter posted earlier in this very same thread? Are people really that blind that they cannot even read a thread before spouting off completely inaccurate information?

The link to a copy of the official GW outcome was on the last page and the 1st page had a link for the sector and individual warzone breakdown!

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/newsletter_f.html

It is reproduced verbatim without alteration.

And it is reproduced elsewhere on the Internet and can be found through a simple search. All of them say the exact same thing. "Though the Imperial Navy is in control of the inter-system space lanes, Chaos rules the skies above Cadia "

http://web.archive.org/web/20031015103118/http://hipcat.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm

has day by day break down of the results during the campaign AND the final GW newsletter again.

 Psienesis wrote:
While Mars does hoard a lot of knowledge, it's not like they are keeping whiz-bang tech to themselves "just because". It's that they have a truly unimaginable amount of data stored away on servers that are buried under kilometers of wreckage and scrap dating back to the Heresy, perhaps earlier, that the current AdMech is entirely ignorant of having ever existed in the first damned place. A massive amount of data and information has simply, truly been forgotten, and will never, ever be rediscovered by the AdMech.

You forget that Imperium could be a lot more technologically advanced if forge worlds would share their knowledge with each other. As it's not, true baneblades are produced almost exclusively on mars, similar situation are and with power armor and secrets of terminator suits are even more jealousy guarded. Same goes with others forges, like Ryze who knows a lot deal more about plasma weaponary than mars do. You forget that tech-priest do not need servers to store knowledge. They are those servers who can instantly absorb computer-like amounts of knowledge and later have natural-like access to it. Due to that and to their religion which says: " A man's worth is only the sum of his knowledge - his body is simply an organic machine capable of preserving intellect." makes sure that no knowledge will not disappear ever. So, it's near impossible to loose technology that was used during horus heresy and from that point, only progression of technology is possible, not degredation. If a mechanicus would have any suspicion at all that even a scrap of forgotten knowledge exists burried under unimportant data, then I assure you, some high-ranking tech priest would generously send his lexmechanics to dig it up. Remember, ruling members of Adeptus Mechanicus are typically immortal, so they experience time differently than we. They actually can spend several normal human lifetimes just to complete a minor, but necessary task. And for them, there are no greater reward than to discover something truly advanced, or at very least- useful.
The thing is: "Knowledge is power, guard it well". Adeptus mechanicus are prone to competing with each other for higher posts. Also, they are very concerned in keeping their knowledge to themselves, because it's the greatest treasure and a source of power that a tech-priest can have. It was hinted in "Titanicus", that Adeptus mechanicus have become far more concerned with means of encrypting information than the information itself. And in "Mechanicus" it was showed that forge masters in fact do research and create and their creations are not something to be laughed at. For example, noosphere was mainly developed and completed during great crusade and that is a way more advanced technical means of communication than anything xenos have (except eldar and necrons). (Also, if Tau would ever loose their plot armor, maybe we could see a single adeptus mechanicus ship "negotiating" in their home world with scrap code infection active in their systems? In truth, that alone should bring Tau civilisation to their knees!). Same with Kaban, an AI single handedly developed by few people and granted with a body which were completely new in design and that's more- superior than its rivals.


If Mechanicus would become desperate for survival then almost entire Imperium would feel an immense technological boom. Their spaceships would be armed as well as adeptus mechanicus ships are, all suits of power armor would be far more accessable, long "forgotten" technologies would be made a common sight on the battlefield once again. With such sharing of knowledge, fabricator-generals would be hard pressed to widen their research teams and thus to increase the amount of progress being made and to increase a risk of these new technologies transfered to other forges. Don't get me wrong, I actually love Adeptus Mechanicus lore, but I believe that GW went just little too much with their grim-dark and actually contradicted themselves. To portray tech-priest as completely stagnant and ignorant simply just doesn't make any sense. Sure, their religion might work on lower rank adepts as a means to preserve their own power, but on the whole, their religion actually requires and forces them to gain knowledge and skills. That's there I think GW made a mistake. Superstition is just a means to control adepts from taking their place while ruling elite can safely gather knowledge and research it in their small research teams in secret.
It's not that ruling elite aren't afraid of taking apart working example of lost knowledge. They are simply wise enough to constrain themselves. These ventures might not yield any results and invaluable piece of equipment might be lost with further angrying their whole ''community'' with disrespect to technology. It's easier and safer to actually find lost knowledge than to back-engineer technologies which are in use and to research that which actually promises some reward.


I'm sorry for this off-topic, but I believe it's still better than to discuss the same thing over and over again.

I think we should all hold in account, The Necrons of Mars and the potentional large C'tan shard that resides there, this is still valid isn't it? (checked it, it is)

What we know here will account what would happen, Necrons aren't stupid, seeing Two factions fight at such massive levels will leave them on the sideline, but then when the fight is over, better eat it bitches, the Necrons will just wipe both their remaining forces.

About the mechanicus mainbase being mars, Necrons could destroy it inside out, meaning that any defences are useless, since they are purely focused to attacks from the outsides. This will cripple any Mechanicus help Earth would need and chaos will never suspect it fully or as stated in the 3rd edition necron codex, (abbadon getting info about the void dragen (shard) on mars) will completely count on the "aid" of the Necrons.

Whatever happens, both sides will be or wiped out or very very weak, leaving a great gap for any reasonable xeno that knows what it would do to the imperium or main lead of Chaos when they got eliminated, Necrons who want to reclaim the galaxy will know most of all what this would mean.

Just saying, there is no denying that both forces will be extremely weak after the match (no matter who won.)

I think the source is pretty straightforward.

Final Newsletter

Cadia
The bleak moors of Cadia are reduced to a barren, crater-pocked wasteland, blasted by orbital torpedoes, super-heavy artillery and the footfall of titans. The Vilklas and Andur defence lines have collapsed under the relentless pressure of a million frenzied cultists, traitors and mutants, and the Cadian High Command has been forced to relocate to Kasr Gallan on the far side of the Caducades Sea. Though the Imperial Navy is in control of the inter-system space lanes, Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell in the opening days of the Black Crusade. The defenders of Cadia are now deployed around Kasr Gallan and throughout the Wastes, resolute that not a backward step shall be taken. The order is given- ‘stand at Cadia, or damn the Imperium of Mankind to the depredations of Chaos for all eternity’.

The space lanes
The Imperial Navy has fought with courage and vigour throughout the war, ruthlessly taking the battle to the enemy wherever it encountered them. Admiral Quarren has been hailed a true hero of the Imperium, for his masterful defence of the space lanes was all that stood between survival, and utter defeat for the Imperium. Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands space, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces on the ground. The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate.

It might seem like those two sections condradict each other, but just because Chaos controls the immediate vicinity around Cadia doesn't mean the Imperium couldnt do a blockade run, thus "offer[ing] support to beleaguered forces on the ground". Also, Cadia itself isn't the only planet with ground forces in combat within the area of the gate. It's actually a pretty big chunk of space; maybe what the newsletter is trying to say is that, though the situation on Cadia is bad, the Imperium is holding the line on other worlds in the system. Either way, I think it's pretty clear that Chaos fleets surround Cadia, whihc are themselves surrounded by Imperial ships in deep space and neighbouring systems.

 Jakoto wrote:
I think the source is pretty straightforward.

Final Newsletter

Cadia
The bleak moors of Cadia are reduced to a barren, crater-pocked wasteland, blasted by orbital torpedoes, super-heavy artillery and the footfall of titans. The Vilklas and Andur defence lines have collapsed under the relentless pressure of a million frenzied cultists, traitors and mutants, and the Cadian High Command has been forced to relocate to Kasr Gallan on the far side of the Caducades Sea. Though the Imperial Navy is in control of the inter-system space lanes, Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell in the opening days of the Black Crusade. The defenders of Cadia are now deployed around Kasr Gallan and throughout the Wastes, resolute that not a backward step shall be taken. The order is given- ‘stand at Cadia, or damn the Imperium of Mankind to the depredations of Chaos for all eternity’.

The space lanes
The Imperial Navy has fought with courage and vigour throughout the war, ruthlessly taking the battle to the enemy wherever it encountered them. Admiral Quarren has been hailed a true hero of the Imperium, for his masterful defence of the space lanes was all that stood between survival, and utter defeat for the Imperium. Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands space, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces on the ground. The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate.

It might seem like those two sections condradict each other, but just because Chaos controls the immediate vicinity around Cadia doesn't mean the Imperium couldnt do a blockade run, thus "offer[ing] support to beleaguered forces on the ground". Also, Cadia itself isn't the only planet with ground forces in combat within the area of the gate. It's actually a pretty big chunk of space; maybe what the newsletter is trying to say is that, though the situation on Cadia is bad, the Imperium is holding the line on other worlds in the system. Either way, I think it's pretty clear that Chaos fleets surround Cadia, whihc are themselves surrounded by Imperial ships in deep space and neighbouring systems.

He's obviously angry... I generally suggest people like that get avoided in conversation.

The imperium will win, because GW want them to.

But if chaos takes Terra (given that atlernative to astronomican will be built) will it would not loose its purpose? I mean, they have a symbolic victory for which they fought since Horus Heresy. They have escaped out of their prisons and spilled into new lands. Abbadon already have an extreme difficulty in keeping his forces in line. For example, in audio drama "Throne of Lies" you can hear that entire Night lords legion have left black crusade on their own initiative, so you can see how little they listen to their warmaster. After setting in heart of the Imperium maybe chaos will loose its anger against Imperium and would focus their attention more to their own rivalies. So maybe, 14'th crusade will be a last one?


Also, Imperium is just too vast to be wiped out just by this. It will endure,fractionated into smaller empires or without being so over-stretched, but humanity will endure as galaxy's greatest super-power.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
I fear xenos might rule given humanities 10,000 year bloodletting, whoevers going to when needs to do it soon so the nids necrons orks can be wiped out.

I think in the end,... the orks will be the only ones left.

They do not worship chaos by the masses,... so when all other life forms die out who do,... the chaos gods die hence the end of chaos... ( unless the fateweaver can avoid this somehow)
The Necrons will wipe out any race they encounter,.. which leaves tyranids without biomass except the orks,... which are capable of stopping them... so they die out
Necrons are just a shimmer of what they once where... though still a force to be reckoned with, i thinks the orks would be cabale of destroying them... Their biggest lord gets fooled by orks all the time
The imperium will put up a damn good fight,.. but can be overhtrown by Nids, Orks, Crons and Chaos eventualy...
The Tau, though growing steadily is just like the imperium,... pushed on all sides but you might for the time being consider them ''a small empire''
The Eldar... if any survive of them it will be the dark eldar... since they hide in the webway.... but if they survive so will chaos.... (slaanesh at the least )

How will the 13th end? Probably with the beginning of the 14th..

Eldercaveman wrote:
How will the 13th end? Probably with the beginning of the 14th..

And that my friends, is the most sensible comment on the thread.

 TechmarineNic wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
How will the 13th end? Probably with the beginning of the 14th..

And that my friends, is the most sensible comment on the thread.

Worrying, isn't it?

Ernestas is right. Mankind has seeked to gain knowledge since taming fire, it is a very instinctual and natural habit of homo-sapiens. The Adeptus Mechanicus seeks knowledge of engineering and science with a religious zeal. Naturally, one would assume that to have the capability to do such things, you can't be a total idiot, dumb-ass, or fool. Much as GW pushes the grim darkness and fans of WH40K supports the arguments for stagnation and eroding technology, the most plausible effects of the Adeptus Mechanicus doctrines are that technology can only get better, and would be extremely difficult to be forgotten and destroyed.

Well from a marketing perspective, the Imperium has to win, the question is in what manner.

To be honest in terms of the game I think they'll keep it at this state and develope the armies. I don't see much point in going, right, Chaos wins, the Imperium is wiped off the face of the galaxy, scrap all adeptus astartes and guard codices and units, they are now, if anything, small ragtag bands of militia.

That or the inquisition go about getting all the old superweapons from the adeptus mechanicus and any and all psykers are quickly put into GK training.

 FuzzyLogik wrote:
Well from a marketing perspective, the Imperium has to win, the question is in what manner.

To be honest in terms of the game I think they'll keep it at this state and develope the armies. I don't see much point in going, right, Chaos wins, the Imperium is wiped off the face of the galaxy, scrap all adeptus astartes and guard codices and units, they are now, if anything, small ragtag bands of militia.

I actually think a "defeated, but not destroyed" Imperium would be a nice backdrop for the game. Perhaps the 13th Black Crusade, and 1 or 2 more thereafter, put the IoM in really bad shape. Abaddon carves out a nice chunk of real estate around Cadia, allowing free run out of the Eye. With the Imperium needing to commit more and more forces to those battles, the Tau, Orks and 'Nids lay major defeats on the IoM in various different theatres of war. 50%+ of Astartes Chapters are completely or near-destroyed. Some of the remaining Chapters, perhaps with the blessing of the High Lords, scrap the codex and begin to over-recruit, swelling to near-Legion size (the Black Templars would make a good choice for having done this). Another chunk of Chapters turn into little more than vigilante forces, independently tearing through what's left of Imperium space prosecuting the victorious enemies of mankind, while levying heavy losses upon the citizens and infrastructure of the worlds they assault.

A dark era having dawned, the Imperium likely fragments into a number of semi-powerful factions - the most powerful of which is the Ecclesiarchy, though though the Imperial Navy, being the fighting force with the most organized structure, heavily influences all of the power hungry factions. On the fringes of old Imperial space, semi-autonomous fiefdoms spring up. As these worlds are so far from the grasp of any of the power factions, their rulers become would-be kings. Many of these "monarchs" win the loyalty of local Space Marine Chapters, while others simply militarize their populations through mandatory conscription and over-tithing.

In this dark era, the IoM is essentially no more. Humanity huddles around the burning wreckage of man's ancient glory... but mostly for warmth.

I would love to see this backdrop... and it would provide an excellent framework for a semi-reboot of the franchise. Perhaps the rise of a new Emperor or the birth of the Star Child. Or perhaps a return of one or more of the Primarchs. In any event, it would be a nice change of pace from the stalemate we've been stuck in for 10 years.

 Traejun wrote:

 FuzzyLogik wrote:
Well from a marketing perspective, the Imperium has to win, the question is in what manner.

To be honest in terms of the game I think they'll keep it at this state and develope the armies. I don't see much point in going, right, Chaos wins, the Imperium is wiped off the face of the galaxy, scrap all adeptus astartes and guard codices and units, they are now, if anything, small ragtag bands of militia.

I actually think a "defeated, but not destroyed" Imperium would be a nice backdrop for the game. Perhaps the 13th Black Crusade, and 1 or 2 more thereafter, put the IoM in really bad shape. Abaddon carves out a nice chunk of real estate around Cadia, allowing free run out of the Eye. With the Imperium needing to commit more and more forces to those battles, the Tau, Orks and 'Nids lay major defeats on the IoM in various different theatres of war. 50%+ of Astartes Chapters are completely or near-destroyed. Some of the remaining Chapters, perhaps with the blessing of the High Lords, scrap the codex and begin to over-recruit, swelling to near-Legion size (the Black Templars would make a good choice for having done this). Another chunk of Chapters turn into little more than vigilante forces, independently tearing through what's left of Imperium space prosecuting the victorious enemies of mankind, while levying heavy losses upon the citizens and infrastructure of the worlds they assault.

A dark era having dawned, the Imperium likely fragments into a number of semi-powerful factions - the most powerful of which is the Ecclesiarchy, though though the Imperial Navy, being the fighting force with the most organized structure, heavily influences all of the power hungry factions. On the fringes of old Imperial space, semi-autonomous fiefdoms spring up. As these worlds are so far from the grasp of any of the power factions, their rulers become would-be kings. Many of these "monarchs" win the loyalty of local Space Marine Chapters, while others simply militarize their populations through mandatory conscription and over-tithing.

In this dark era, the IoM is essentially no more. Humanity huddles around the burning wreckage of man's ancient glory... but mostly for warmth.

I would love to see this backdrop... and it would provide an excellent framework for a semi-reboot of the franchise. Perhaps the rise of a new Emperor or the birth of the Star Child. Or perhaps a return of one or more of the Primarchs. In any event, it would be a nice change of pace from the stalemate we've been stuck in for 10 years.

This could be Warhammer 50,000.
Or 41,000 to be more feasible on the timescale.

 Selym wrote:

 Traejun wrote:

 FuzzyLogik wrote:
Well from a marketing perspective, the Imperium has to win, the question is in what manner.

To be honest in terms of the game I think they'll keep it at this state and develope the armies. I don't see much point in going, right, Chaos wins, the Imperium is wiped off the face of the galaxy, scrap all adeptus astartes and guard codices and units, they are now, if anything, small ragtag bands of militia.

I actually think a "defeated, but not destroyed" Imperium would be a nice backdrop for the game. Perhaps the 13th Black Crusade, and 1 or 2 more thereafter, put the IoM in really bad shape. Abaddon carves out a nice chunk of real estate around Cadia, allowing free run out of the Eye. With the Imperium needing to commit more and more forces to those battles, the Tau, Orks and 'Nids lay major defeats on the IoM in various different theatres of war. 50%+ of Astartes Chapters are completely or near-destroyed. Some of the remaining Chapters, perhaps with the blessing of the High Lords, scrap the codex and begin to over-recruit, swelling to near-Legion size (the Black Templars would make a good choice for having done this). Another chunk of Chapters turn into little more than vigilante forces, independently tearing through what's left of Imperium space prosecuting the victorious enemies of mankind, while levying heavy losses upon the citizens and infrastructure of the worlds they assault.

A dark era having dawned, the Imperium likely fragments into a number of semi-powerful factions - the most powerful of which is the Ecclesiarchy, though though the Imperial Navy, being the fighting force with the most organized structure, heavily influences all of the power hungry factions. On the fringes of old Imperial space, semi-autonomous fiefdoms spring up. As these worlds are so far from the grasp of any of the power factions, their rulers become would-be kings. Many of these "monarchs" win the loyalty of local Space Marine Chapters, while others simply militarize their populations through mandatory conscription and over-tithing.

In this dark era, the IoM is essentially no more. Humanity huddles around the burning wreckage of man's ancient glory... but mostly for warmth.

I would love to see this backdrop... and it would provide an excellent framework for a semi-reboot of the franchise. Perhaps the rise of a new Emperor or the birth of the Star Child. Or perhaps a return of one or more of the Primarchs. In any event, it would be a nice change of pace from the stalemate we've been stuck in for 10 years.

This could be Warhammer 50,000.
Or 41,000 to be more feasible on the timescale.

Yeah, I don't think 10,000 years would need to be passed to bring the universe to the above state. WH41-42K would work nicely.

Or, Time of Ending- A 40k expansion. The reverse of the HH.

 Deadshot wrote:
Or, Time of Ending- A 40k expansion. The reverse of the HH.

Now if they made THAT into a novel series, I would pay to read it. Unlike the Horus Heresy where we already know what happens. Would have to be written damn well though, or would generate more rage then the HH.

 Biaz wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Or, Time of Ending- A 40k expansion. The reverse of the HH.

Now if they made THAT into a novel series, I would pay to read it. Unlike the Horus Heresy where we already know what happens. Would have to be written damn well though, or would generate more rage then the HH.

"In the Grim Darkness of the far future's far future, there is only Tau, because the didn't participate in the apocalyptic battles that destroyed the other races. Damn anime fan communists..."

Yup, that'd work just fine!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
huh.
"W-e-e-a-B-o-o" comes out as "Anime Fan" here.

To answer the OP after two pages:

Abaddon's arms will be stolen by Creed, again.

Imperial victoreh!

 thenoobbomb wrote:


Empereuhl victreh!

Foar the Emprah!!

Fix'd