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So... Cadians.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Captain Roderick wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:


I didn't say that they should leave the cultural diversity behind. A Mordian Iron Guard is a Mordian Iron Guard in a tactical vest too. Yeah, he is no longer crazy-silly, but he shouldn't be either.

So you'd standardise all IG models as Cadians?

Pretty much. But not Cadians, because Cadians are also silly (IMHO), but more like these guys:

So lightly armoured, lots of random equipment (often mismatched), lots of face-masks/gas-masks, looks crazy-prepared but still pretty "roguish". And then we could add the culture specific stuff: skulls for the Kanak guys, headbands (instead of the helmets) and big knives for the Catachans, longer coats (not actual longcoats) and cooler gas-masks for the DKoK and so on. This way, we could have a full model range of plastic infantry with a couple "upgrade sets" and still everyone is pleased (or not, because they want their historical references in SPEESSHH).

So..Death Korps of Krieg?

Rough Riders may be a classic, but the whole "angry Mogols on horses with lances" thing doesn't really work very well. I'd rather see a dragoon unit that works as mobile firepower (more like Empire Outriders from WHFB) as opposed to a shock cavalry unit.

As far as Valkyries/Vendettas as Dedicated Transports, maybe say Valkyries (but not Vendettas) are permitted as Dedicated Transports for Stormtroopers, but the Fast Attack section gets either 0-1 squadrons or buys individual flyers instead of squadrons? Mind that Armored Company gets 0-1 Vendetta/Vulture squadrons and Lightnings/Thunderbolts/Avengers as HS, and Elysians get Valkyries as Dedicated Transports everywhere and Vendettas/Vultures/Lightnings/Thunderbolts/Avengers in other slots, regular IG are far from the most flyer-heavy Guard list in the rules.

Yeah, I cannot agree, AtoMaki. Modern look is just boring. I want IG to be an absurd anachronistic mishmash.

I like the modern look, but I think Cadians do just fine as a compromise between modern and sci-fi.

*shudders* Well, Atomaki, this is a thread for aspirations for the next IG dex, and YMMV - but I have to say, I really hope you don't get your wish.

The Guard is BIG The Guard is STUPID The Guard likes BIG GUNS The Guard likes SEND IN THE NEXT WAVE The Guard likes TANKS The Guard likes CAVALRY CHARGES The Guard likes DUDES WITH SPEARS VS TYRANIDS The Guard likes LOSING 100 BANEBLADES The Guard has FLASHLIGHTS The Guard has QUANTITY The Guard DOES NOT DO STANDARDISATION WELL...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit:
The Guard likes BLAMMING...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Guard finds A SLEDGEHAMMER IS THE ONLY TOOL YOU NEED


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know where I'm going with this...

-Ogren: Some sort of fix, Making their Melee Attacks Rending or the Bone-Head being able to take a Special Melee Weapon.

Commissars: Make 0-5 Available to be placed any ware. This includes as Tank Commanders or as a Rough Rider.

Marbo: Allow him to Assault out of reserves and/or make his Save a 5+/5++

-Rough Riders: These are the ones I would like to see.
 Rough Rider Company Command Squad that makes Rough Riders a Troop Choice. Also give them Power Lances as an option.
 Let Rough Riders trade out their Lance for a second Las-Pistol.
 Make Power Laces as a Weapon Option.
 Make Combat Shields a Option
 Give them Out-Flank as an option.
 Toughness 4
 An Elite Variant with Twin-Hot Shot Las Pistols, Carapace Armor and Melta-Bombs for all.

 Captain Roderick wrote:
The Guard DOES NOT DO STANDARDISATION WELL...

Do you even Lasgun ? Or Leman Russ/Chimera? I guess you do know that these are all standardized stuff, and without them, the IG wouldn't even exist? Their whole organization is based on standardization for crying out loud!

So I'm not sure if you are serious...

Too many powergamers in this thread who're saying the IG codex is perfect simply because they can spam vendettas.

I want to see foot infantry viable, ideally vets *and* PISs. And I'm sick of simply spamming meltaguns with my troops, I want more options that can compete.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Captain Roderick wrote:
The Guard DOES NOT DO STANDARDISATION WELL...

Do you even Lasgun ? Or Leman Russ/Chimera? I guess you do know that these are all standardized stuff, and without them, the IG wouldn't even exist? Their whole organization is based on standardization for crying out loud!

So I'm not sure if you are serious...

I DO lasgun. Every day. twice on Sundays...



Yeah I kindof lost the plot there.

Standardisation of a lot of stuff is in place and is fair. But I think standard uniforms aren't part of the deal - there's plenty of justification that can be made either way. Since Forgeworlds already pump out the lasguns and tanks, why not have them pump out flak suits and fatigues as well?

On the other hand, there is regimental pride. These poor schmucks aren't going home again, and feeling like a cohesive unit is a very important part of their morale. Feeling special. Just like in the British Army, a piddling force by IG standards, there's loads of little variations allowed, at least in dress uniform, to give recognition and pride to specific units. Gloucesters having a cap badge on the front and back, the Black Watch Hackle, to name just a couple. I see the uniform variations as necessary concessions to pride and morale.

I agree with the guard book to be rebalanced from the abusers while still being allowed to bring back the fun diversity.

Things I hope for:
Doctrines expanded from Vets to the rest of the IG line as upgrades to allow Heavy Infantry, Deathworld, etc.
Totally agree with Rough Rider HQs/Commissars - also wish for the older customization options we had for Rough Riders to come back so they are not just Lancers. Would like to revisit my old plans for Carabiners, Hussars, and Cuirassiers and maybe Dragoons.
All the poor bastards of this codex (Penal squads, Ogryns, SWS, Snipers, Conscripts, etc.) to get some loving.
Certain weapons from the Guard to get much needed boosts such as the Mortars (can the Imperium's Budgeting Committee please issue them other ammo types like Smoke, Phosphorus, or something?), Grenade Launchers, Shotguns (if you have to change them entirely from the standard junk Shotgun then just call them Guard 'Trench guns' or something).

Things I would love but probably won't see the light of day:
Hive Gang Militia/Necromundan Spiders (could be absorbed with Penal squads if done right this time)
Heavy Stubbers on foot
Engineer Support Unit

 AtoMaki wrote:
Do you even Lasgun ? Or Leman Russ/Chimera? I guess you do know that these are all standardized stuff, and without them, the IG wouldn't even exist? Their whole organization is based on standardization for crying out loud!

Only as far as basic equipment that can be easily replicated, maintained & repaired and is available in great abundance. There is no standardised size to an Imperial Guard regiment, there is no standardised way of organising each regiment, there is no standardised uniform or webbing, the officers ranks aren't standardised, the languages used aren't standardised beyond a basic understanding of Low Gothic for communication purposes in the field between different regiments from different worlds. With a million worlds (give or take a few) there will always be -huge- amounts of variation. Look how varied our armies are on our world and that's just one planet. Now try standardising the unimaginable number of Guardsmen across an entire galaxy - impossible.

Actually, even with standardised items like the lasgun, there's a lot of variety. There's the M36 Lasgun, the Mars & Necromunda patterns, the Triplex, the '96 Lucius pattern, the Accatran pattern Mk. IV and many, many other variants that all fire on different power settings, are made from different materials and in different designs - the folding stock lasguns of the Steel Legion are utterly different to the intricate & archaic looking weapons of the Vostroyans. Same goes for Leman-Russ battletanks - the Ryza pattern, often in use with the Death Korp, is equipped with co-axial stubbers besides the main weapon on the Vanquisher pattern - the regular Mars pattern doesn't have that (as well as a different shape to the turret). The basic workings are standardised but there's still a lot of variation.

If the Guard ever became as dull as I find Space Marines, with just one appearance fits all, I'd quit 40k there and then. I have little love for the Cadian & Catachan plastics as it is and I'd much, much rather there were boxes of plastics for the various regiments even if it was just for infantry squads to start with.

As a last note on that, you can't change the respirators of the Death Korps. Every part of the Death Korp uniform, from their respirators to the colour-coded unit identification tabs on their greatcoats, is drawn from the uniforms of one of the major armies involved in the Western Front of the Great War. The respirators themselves are based on British & German designs and thus they can't be altered without ruining the inspiration behind the Death Korps uniform.

As for a new Guard Codex? Errr, I can wait. Seriously I can. I like the 5th Edition codex still and I'd much rather other forces recieved their look-in first (especially Orks. Poor Orks, they've had to wait so long for a new Codex, not quite as long as Eldar but long enough). When Guard do get their update, what would I like to see in it?

HQ:
Introduce Rough Rider Company/Squadron Command Squad
Elites:
Stormtroopers repointed & reworked - current ones aren't up to scratch compared to Veteran squads
Introduce some form of Elite Rough Riders, maybe in carapace armour with option of power lances
Troops:
If taking Rough Rider Company/Squadron Command Squad then Rough Riders become troops (I want a lancer army dammit!)
Sergeants in Infantry squads get to take lasguns as an option - I'd rather have the extra lasgun in there than a laspistol & chainsword
Fast Attack:
Rough Riders get to have both sword & laspistol in addition to their hunting lance, as well as the Sergeant being able to take a power lance.
Thunderbolt added either as Fast Attack or Heavy Support
Heavy Support:
See above (Thunderbolt)

I would love to see Rough Riders improved. I've wanted a squad of the little Mongols in my army for the longest time, and have never felt the need to use them.

Another option I would like to see is the old RT Assualt Squads, Twin-Las-Pistols and Jump Packs.
Comisar Traning Squads
Bomb Squads
and the return of Beastmen

I'd like to see an enormous expansion in the number of Platoons available to you. Rather than the single option that exists now, allow a variety of different regiments purely by expanding the flexibility of the core unit.
These additional Platoons would likely require a fixed cost to the Platoon Command Squad, thus simultaneously introducing a balancing aspect while also promoting large platoons.
You could even expand it with specific Orders unique to each Platoon.


Eg.
Infantry Platoon- As we love them. Exactly as printed.

Light Infantry Platoon- All models reduce Flak Armour to Flak Vests (6+) but gain Stealth and Move through Cover. Platoon loses the ability to take Heavy Weapon squads and Conscripts, but instead can take 0-2 Scout Sentinels as attachments.

Heavy Infantry Platoon- All models upgrade Flak Armour to Carapace Armour (4+) and gain Flak Grenades. Platoon loses the option for Conscripts and Chimerae, relatively expensive cost to the Platoon Command.

Airborne Platoon- All models gain access to Valkyries (NOT Vendetta) as a Dedicated Transport. Lose access to Chimerae, Conscipts and anything heavier than a Mortar team, in exchange for expanded access to Demopacks.

Mechanised Platoon- All squads, including Support / Heavy elements, gain access to Chimerae. All units in the Platoon must be mounted. Trade Heavy Weapon teams for Hellhound / Devildog attachments.

Heavy Weapons Platoon- Lose access to special weapon teams in exchange for increases access to Heavy Weapon teams.


The Company Command Squad would have similar options, though rather than Platoon composition, we would see entirely new Platoons being made available.
You could upgrade them to a Stormtrooper Command, giving you the 'elite' Guard army. Similarly giving the Command Squad horses would allow Platoons of Rough Riders.

I recall that on the leaked "product release" list that's been floating around, there were plastic stormtroopers/veterans dual kits and a hyrda listed, but that's it for Guard.

Guard's kind of in an odd place, it's got a solid ruleset, some units are too powerful, some units aren't viable, so they lack much flexibility in terms of "competitive" lists, but can still perform alright with their less effective units. However, their model range is old, a lot of it doesn't look very good (infantry in particular), and many options are still missing. The Russ, Chimera, Valkyrie, Manticore/Deathstrike and Sentinel are probably the only genuinely good looking models they have.

In terms of model releases,as I've already touched on rules in earlier posts, and broadly agree with what others are saying (especially the old Doctrines, I think that's key to representing how much variance there is in the Guard), there's a few key kits which need to come out:

Artillery: Basilisk, Griffon, Bombard, Medusa kit. They all use the same chassis, but have different gun assemblies. It'd probably be an expensive kit, due to the fact the guns are moderately different.

Stormtroopers: These are all but certain to be released in plastic, they're some of the only metal infantry left in the main ranges, and one of the best looking. I don't know, however, whether they'll keep the Kasrkin aesthetic (which are awesome looking) or the Stormtrooper aesthetic (which is alright looking, but the models are so horribly cast it's hard to say). If they make this a dual kit for vets, as has been indicated, it needs some actual special weapons other than flamers and grenade launchers. New kits have been good at providing weapon options, so we can hope.

Catachans: this line either needs a major revamp, or be dropped in favour of another plastic guard line. Cadians are alright, bobble heads aside, and unlikely to change, but Catachans look awful, and they aren't selling. My FLGS has half a dozen guard players, and a dozen + guard customers who don't play there, and everything sells but the catachans. I doubt that's a unique scenario. These guys either need to be de-ramboified, or replaced with the more conventional sci-fi look people want, with great coats, different helmets, something which can be mixed with Cadians to make a wide variety of good looking Guard, something you can't really do with Catachans.

Rough Riders: There's no existent model, but since rules for them suck, they only really need them if they are made worthwhile. Release a model for a garbage unit, it ain't gonna sell much.

In general, one thing the Guard desperately need is access to special weapons. When vets can take 3, SWS can take 3, Storms can take 2, CCS can take 4 and so on, and there is only the one plasma and melta gun in the command box, it becomes a royal nightmare to get weapons, especially weapons which fit them well. I don't like the alternative of either buying the very expensive metal special weapon gunners, or having to use poorly-scaled marine special weapons for everything, so for the love of the Emperor, give us some bloody special weapons, when we're arguably the heaviest users of special weapons in the game.

Also, I'd like to see a plastic multipart Commissar character with some customization options; they're popular, flavourful and useful units to the Guard, and while the metal models aren't bad, they're showing their age, and look like crap against FW's Commissar set.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
I'd like to see the Vulture added as a Codex entry. Because when I buy that lovely model, I want to be able to use it without issues.

This, a thousand times this. I'm surprised it wasn't included this time around tbh.

Also, granting Stormtroopers the "Storm the Objective" special rule would make me extremely happy.
(Found in the Apocalypse datasheet: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2620180_NEW_Imperial_Guard_-_Storm_Trooper_Strike_Force.pdf)

Past-scriptorum- plastic Stromtroopers have been rumored for years, to no avail. I'm not holding my breath on that front.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Exactly, I mean, I can understand if people want to follow a "modern" or "near future" military sci-fi theme with their army, but why do people who prefer that aesthetic so often seem to want all other options reduced or eliminated? If you don't want grimdark stuff, don't buy/use it, problem solved.

"Near future/modern" and "grimdark" are not mutually exclusive. Actually, Verdun would look like a peaceful picnic next to a real, high-tech meat grinder. I can totally support those who want to eliminate/change/retcon the weird options because it would give the IG some well-deserved personality instead of the current "historical references in SPEESSHH" theme.

Erm, they sort of are, "grimdark" doesn't just mean "unpleasent", it means skull-festooned deco-gothic totalitarian absurdity, and it's the whole point of the IP for a lot of people.

Further, if you want near-future-ish Guard, you can do that now by simply not choosing the options that don't fit with your theme, so why would you want to piss on everyone else's fun by saying they can only play the game the way YOU want?

Catachans: this line either needs a major revamp, or be dropped in favour of another plastic guard line. Cadians are alright, bobble heads aside, and unlikely to change, but Catachans look awful, and they aren't selling. My FLGS has half a dozen guard players, and a dozen + guard customers who don't play there, and everything sells but the catachans. I doubt that's a unique scenario. These guys either need to be de-ramboified, or replaced with the more conventional sci-fi look people want, with great coats, different helmets, something which can be mixed with Cadians to make a wide variety of good looking Guard, something you can't really do with Catachans.

Anecdotal doesn't work, because my nearby FLGS has a bunch of Catachan players, but almost no Cadians.

Besides there's plenty of lines for that, and no one is sure how well they are selling/aren't selling.

I'd be fine with keeping Vendettas as they are, just removing the ability to take them in squadrons.

I can't speak with any authority on the Codex, but I'll tell you what I'd like to see in plastic kits:

Roughriders. Horses, legs and weapon arms. Then you could convert whatever army you want into them.

Plastic Mordians, Steel Legion or other iconic Guard units. Tallarn even. I like the Forgeworld stuff, but seriously...that's a lot of cash I don't have to get enough to buy a whole army of them and at the rate IG die, you need a LOT of them.

Plastic Kaskrin. According to the current Codex you can give certain units like Veterans Carapace armor. How we supposed to do that, really? Sculpt it ourselves, or have half our armies looking like the same 5 metal Kasrkins? If you had a plastic kit, at least you could head swap with the Regiment of your choice.

Plastic Ogryns and Ratlings. Ratlings I'm stuck with in metal and Ogryns I'm having to convert from Warhammer Ogres and let me tell you the possibilities aren't awesome.

FEMALES! Unless you're an Eldar, the Grim Future is a big sausage fest. Girls are good enough to be Commissars and Inquisitors but not Guardsmen?

I would really love:

Plastic Arvus Lighter or Aquila Lander (May be taken as dedicated transport for command squads (HQ and platoon)), and Valkyries available as dedicated transport for all infantry squad types. (This should extend to Chimaeras too, more tanks for heavy weapon squads!)

Of course, the Arvus, Aquila and Valkyrie should all have more weapon options (see Forgeworld range; though many weapons should not be mountable on dedicated transport variants).

Also; Plastic Vulture, Lightning, Thunderbolts and Avengers,

New plastic Light tanks, New plastic medium tanks.

Leman Russ becomes 'Leman Russ Heavy Tank',gets more expensive, goes back to 1 per FOC-slot, but gets extra cool stuff like awesome new weapons, ability to fire all weapons on the move, more Hullpoints, .etc

Love to see Rough Riders moved to a troop choice. As is they just can’t compete against Valk/Vend, Hellhounds and even Sentinels in the fast attack space. Even in a fluff list just had to put them in an army.

Vox should have a longer range. It really is silly how short of a range it is. Should be a 36’ or 48’ range and give Creed 72’.

Infantry squads should be able to take a medic. Doesn’t make sense how a 50-man squad can’t take a medic but a small 5-man squad that most of the time will be Insta-killed by most weapons gets one.

A list of general "fixes" I'd like to see, not including new stuff/models.

I'd reduce both the Vendetta and Valkyrie to 11/11/10 AV(what it was under FW before they were up-armored to be useable as skimmers), make the Valkyrie a dedicated transport option, make Vendetta a Heavy Support unit and 150pts.

Add TL Heavy Stubber as a heavy weapon option for 5pts, reduce heavy Bolter to 5pts, Missile Launcher to 10pts, Lascannon to 15pts.

Make Grenade Launcher Assault 2 or at least Rapid Fire.

make Carapace armor cheaper, no way its worth 20pts on a command squad or 30pts on a Veteran squad, a BS4 vet with an S3 lasgun is not worth 1pt more than a BS3 Firewarrior with an S5 Pulse Rifle.

Sentinels to 25pts tops, 5pts cheaper on pretty much all weapons, Armored Sentinels should really be 3HP and 40pts

Stormtroopers. WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I3 A1 Ld8 (9 on sergeant) 4+sv, Furious Charge, Laspistol/CCW, Hotshot lasguns to S3 AP5 Assault 3 18" Pinning. Infiltrate and Deep Strike. 70pts for 5, 12ppm for each additional model up to 10, may take up to two special weapons. That'd make them a legitimate actual "stormtrooper" assault unit, as opposed to awkward and ineffective MEQ hunters, effective but not stepping on any toes.

Drop Hellhound & Variant costs by 40pts, Fast AV12 non-skimmer is not worth the price of a battle tank.

Leman Russ General: AV11 rear on all models, reduce sponson costs by 10pts each, fix Heavy/Lumbering to allow ordnance to still allow secondary weapons to fire effectively
LR Punisher: Drop 20pts from cost
LR Eradicator: make same as base LRBT cost
LR Vanquisher: make main gun AP1 and add coaxial heavy stubber to allow rerolls if stubber hits.
Add LR Annihilator at 130pts

Artillery: Drop cost on Basilisk by 15pts, reduce minimum range to 24". Reduce Medusa cost by 10pts.

Vox Networks: remove re-roll, allow to use anywhere on the board instead of within a few inches of an officer.

Heavy Weapon Squads: give Eternal Warrior (it's two dudes on one gun, not one tougher-than average dude, and without EW they're just too easy to remove, especially with Ld7) Reduce base cost to 50pts with a Mortar/TL Heavy Stubber/Heavy Bolter, 5ppm upgrade to Autocannons or ML's, 15ppm upgrade to Lascannons.

RR's need new models, make 8ppm base, give option for Carapace at 2ppm.

Give Hydra the option to use Skyfire or not. (I really *really* hate that they made skyfire snapshots only at ground targets and tied the fix in for that to an ability to fire at oncoming reserves, stupid game design, and half the Hydras fluff is being turned to use against infantry)

Relegate Deathstrike to Apocalypse, it has no place in a typical 40k battle as anything but an objective.

give Ogryns Ld9 and Stubborn

Make Techpriest repairs more reliable, buy as upgrade to vehicle/vehicle squadron.

Make Priest a Platoon upgrade

I honestly wouldn't mind some kind of AV13 medium tank that's specialized; say BS4, or twin linked weapon, single armament, dedicated AT or anti-infantry. Preferably one which looks like a real tank.

 CadianXV wrote:

 Valhalla130 wrote:
I'd like to see the Vulture added as a Codex entry. Because when I buy that lovely model, I want to be able to use it without issues.

This, a thousand times this. I'm surprised it wasn't included this time around tbh.

Also, granting Stormtroopers the "Storm the Objective" special rule would make me extremely happy.
(Found in the Apocalypse datasheet: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2620180_NEW_Imperial_Guard_-_Storm_Trooper_Strike_Force.pdf)

Past-scriptorum- plastic Stromtroopers have been rumored for years, to no avail. I'm not holding my breath on that front.

How did you find that link? I wonder what other things may be that interesting.

I don't think I would want the Leman Russ restricted to one per FOC. Heck, seeing all the tanks I can field in a game is the reason I wanted to start IG. I could see it becoming the medium tank due to its size, and creating a slightly bigger tank to act as the heavy. but yeah, I think the recent changes to lumbering behemoth, etc have neutered the LR.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Erm, they sort of are, "grimdark" doesn't just mean "unpleasent", it means skull-festooned deco-gothic totalitarian absurdity, and it's the whole point of the IP for a lot of people.

You don't have to turn it to 11 either, because then Grimderp or (even worse) Darkness Induced Apathy happen and your theme is screwed.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Further, if you want near-future-ish Guard, you can do that now by simply not choosing the options that don't fit with your theme, so why would you want to piss on everyone else's fun by saying they can only play the game the way YOU want?

I'm talking about the theme and the aesthetics of the Imperial Guard and not its options. They are all fine, even the Rough Riders are cool for some modernish change (and they will still use horses!). Except the Vendetta, that thing should burn in hell. The real change would be in the looks: you could still make a Valhallan army, with all their crazy stuff and such, but your guys would look like a rag-tag army of Spetsnaz instead of a direct WW2 soviets rip-off.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
but yeah, I think the recent changes to lumbering behemoth, etc have neutered the LR.

Well, only the LRBT and demolisher got worse. The other five variants got better, being able to fire all of their guns on the move.

 BryllCream wrote:
Too many powergamers in this thread who're saying the IG codex is perfect simply because they can spam vendettas.

I want to see foot infantry viable, ideally vets *and* PISs. And I'm sick of simply spamming meltaguns with my troops, I want more options that can compete.

If you're spamming meltaguns in 6th edition then it's no wonder you can't deal with Vendettas...