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 bkiker wrote:
I hope I'm mistaken and have just stumbled into wrong threads and topics.

Unfortunately, you haven't. The community here on Dakka (and especially here on Dakka Discussions) has become extremely anti-GW over the years. It's more or less guaranteed that any new piece of news regarding GW will be viewed negatively by a large fraction of the forum members-- for instance, even Tau selling out has been characterized as a "debacle" by many people on these boards!

I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.

I think there could be some cleaning up though. The 'Games Workshop Ownership Changes?' and 'So what do you think is happening?' threads are more or less the same topic, enough so that some people have copy and pasted the same posts between them. And both seem to regurgitate similar discussion to the much longer 'Has it always been this "bad"?' thread.

And a big chunk of the 'bashing' or 'well deserved criticism' is simply that they are the market leader - when they screw up it gets noticed.

When they screw up it can affect the entire hobby. 40K used to be a good entry point into SF wargaming - it was part of what made GW the market leader.

Starter sets were attractively priced - not an impulse buy, but something that was appropriate value for money as a Christmas, Birthday, or even anniversary gift. (Yes, not a random choice - I was commissioned to paint a 40K starter to be given to the wife by her husband as a first anniversary gift. Seems to have worked, they just had their fifth anniversary. They are playing Kings of War these days. :lol: )

Now... they are not as good as an entry point, the starters are above what many would consider an appropriate value for money as a gift.

So, it can mean fewer people entering the hobby as a whole.

I remember being able to buyWH40K 3e at Border's and Waldenbooks. Both are gone now, and BaM! does not carry the games.

I love Mantic, I think that KoW is an excellent value for money - but they do not have the market exposure that GW seems to be giving up.

I cannot go into BaM! and expect to find Kings of War on the shelf.

I cannot go into Toys 'R' Us and expect to see WARMACHINE on the shelf.

GW had that position, but now....

So, some of the animosity is worry about the future of our hobby.

As well as GW being, well... GW.

The Auld Grump

 Kingsley wrote:
...for instance, even Tau selling out has been characterized as a "debacle" by many people on these boards!

Which is weird. After all, FLGS's not being supplied until weeks after the release date is great news!

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I think there could be some cleaning up though. The 'Games Workshop Ownership Changes?' and 'So what do you think is happening?' threads are more or less the same topic, enough so that some people have copy and pasted the same posts between them. And both seem to regurgitate similar discussion to the much longer 'Has it always been this "bad"?' thread.

AMEN.

Not only are there often 5-6 threads about the same 'This week in GW' but the same people post the same points on the same topic in all 6 threads. The threads are not even a discussion half the time, it is simply a rollcall for the same 20 or so people who re-post the exact same laundry list of things they dislike or things they would change.

We even have people cross posting where they respond from one thread to another.

I don't mind when people discuss a topic and post their opinion, it is when the same topic is rehashed 4 times a week, and every NEW issue results in the airing of old grievances which makes every thread just a repeat or duplicate of existing threads already in the top 10 posts in the thread.

There has been some rumored speculation about stock selling... and instead of one topic about that and what it could mean and good information on that, we have 5 threads about the errors GW has made over the past decade with the exact same posts not only burying any new or real discussion but wasting everyone's time.

I don't have anything against GW, i have something against the GW management, that is only focused on short time profits and ignoring the long term effects of their decisions.

I'm just going to skip ahead to the thread complaining about the rise in threads complaining about the rise in threads about complaining.

Most of the GW hate threads ends up being the same 15 or so people ranting and arguing with eacother.

GW is like EA, the number one priority is short term gain. On the other hand, if they keep releasing cool models I will keep being interested.

Don't you think it's a little intellectually dishonest to point out the cluster of "negative Gee-dubs threads" lately without in any way alluding to the abnormal number of unpopular Gee-dubs actions within the last month-ish?

nkelsch wrote:
but the same people post the same points on the same topic in all 6 threads.

Don't you think it's a little ironic to say this, coming from the guy who practically breaks his fingers to drop a big stinky "oh-it's-this-tiresome-thread-again" dook every time one surfaces?

 Rotgut wrote:
Most of the GW hate threads ends up being the same 15 or so people ranting and arguing with eacother.

GW is like EA, the number one priority is short term gain. On the other hand, if they keep releasing cool models I will keep being interested.

I am speaking here only from personal taste, but lately... not so many of their models have been 'cool'.

Some are excellent, others....

I play undead - both Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings - and there are some excellent models in each range.

But lately.... I really do not like many of their big models in either range.

There are still some wonderful models - I think that their terrain looks just fine, thank you.

But the horrible sphinx thing? The Mortis Engine? That oogly-not-in-a-good-way giant spider for the Orcs?

Ech.

Right now watching GW is like watching a giant slipping on a banana peel - either he will manage to get his feet back under himself or he will fall over. Either way, keep an eye on him to either avoid having him fall on you, or just so you can laugh as he flails around wildly.

It is still a giant in trouble.

I have not bought GW in a long while - even the models that I actually like. The value for money just is not there for me, anymore.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
That oogly-not-in-a-good-way giant spider for the Orcs?

Well, I agree they've had a string of misses, mostly with CSM - but are you talking about the Arachnarok? Because that was pretty awesome.

Be careful Sean, you are starting to sound... reasonable. You are going to confuse the standard sheeple with logical... common... sense...

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
I think the OP might be confusing critical review with bashing.

Buying finecast models and pointing out flaws in them is not bashing.

Pointing out problems in GW's pricing policy is not bashing.

Criticizing a company for producing error ridden rule books is not bashing.

Questioning the reasoning of things like dropping tournament support or in store gaming is not bashing.

Having a good laugh about the design of the latest flyer is not bashing.

Voicing an opinion about retail policies (Australian Embargo, internet sales ban...) is not bashing.

Reflecting on historical changes through the management and design teams are not bashing.

Expressing annoyance (even outrage) that a company forgets where it came from and attempts to shut down upstarts (whether they are 3rd party bits or science fiction authors) is not bashing.

There are a lot of threads in general about GW - here and elsewhere. Some of them do contain a few people who are bashing for the sake of bashing. Others provide reasoned responses and positions...quite often against GW's policy faux pas of the day, week, month, year... One of the nice things about the internet is that you can easily ignore those who are unreasonable or purposefully obtuse (which you see nearly as many who support GW for no particular reason at all as well as you see the bashing with no particular basis behind it).

Nothing but love does GW no good (or any other company for that matter). We know that they read the forums (both for evidence for their legal pursuits and for the next target of a C&D letter) to some extent.

+1 Sean.

As an example of Sean's point, this particular post by Sean is not bashing GW, even though it points out much that can be perceived as negative without providing anything positive.

The problem that GW is having in terms of customer perception is that repeated 'bad news' that comes right on the heels of other 'bad news' is feeding an ever-growing cycle of negativity towards the company. Customers barely have breathing room before GW does something else objectively subject to criticism.

More and more people are coming to expect GW to do things that are objectively subject to criticism and it has begin to color perceptions of GW's behavior. In the past year so much has happened that customers have barely had breathing room within which to allow their perceptions of the company heal. GW is doing itself severe harm, and it is harm that is beginning to become permanent.

Imagine what would happen if by the beginning of May GW got trashed in the Chapterhouse Studios trial. That thing is on deck. It is not a joke. GW's asserted intellectual property is exposed in a big way. A jury of 12 Chicagoans who don't give a flip about miniature wargaming are going to hold one of GW's self-professed most valuable assets in their hands on April 22nd.

Imagine what would happen if that were followed by a dismal financial report, a lawsuit over the new trade terms, and another price increase? The pace of 'bad news' has been breakneck and I can't see it slowing anytime soon.

Read your blog post.

Regarding quality: I believe GW has themselves to blame for the sheer amount of lamenting over quality. I have 2 GW stores within driving distance. In both I have heard the black shirts justify the prices by claiming they are the Apple of miniatures with the highest quality items available.

I had to leave on both occassions before I pissed them off by laughing too much. The fact is that GW has had serious missteps lately. They claim to have the highest quality, but ship incredible numbers of faulty product showing they have no quality control in place (finecast).

They have recently shipped codexes which had to be FAQ'd BEFORE those books were in consumers hands. It takes a long time to bring a new codex to play. You have to write it, test it, make changes (rinse/repeat), review it, spell check it, give it to the group for layout, review it again and finally print them. With the problems, it appears they have skimped on one or more of testing, reviewing and simple spell checking. Why on earth would you go to so much trouble just to allow these easily corrected imperfections?

That is just one of the problems.

I work in the Software industry and unfortunately, most companies skip on the whole testing phase simply because it is so incredibly easy to patch the thing later. With a printed book, at the very least I expect it to be spell checked. (Yes, I have written BL on numerous occasions covering this topic). Further, I expect them to be professional enough to make review things for consistency. After all, a FAQ is not the same as a bound and printed book in your hand that should last years. Most of the challenge rules were ripped apart once players started using it and asking questions. The problems should have been found in testing.

GW makes millions a year. $200k would buy an awful lot of people to provide QC on the literary and playtesting front. Point is that it's completely within their grasp, they just don't want to do it. If this were a startup, I'd could completely see such issues. But they aren't. They are the established gorilla and have the resources to solve these issues.

So, what we end up with is a company claiming to be the paragon of quality but which ships product known to be faulty before it's even opened. Not good and completely predictable given their own statements. Essentially, any time you have a company making a claim then doing the exact opposite you will have those pointing out the problems. There are examples everywhere on numerous companies about this, even Google is criticized for their lack of conviction with their "Do no evil" statements.

------

For the most part, I like GW's product. I currently have 9 armies. I'm considering buying another one, just haven't decided which. This is a serious amount of cash I've spent. Will I stop? Probably not any time soon. As I said, I generally like the product. However, these quality issues are irritating; and that's not my only issue with them.

"Objectively subject to criticism" is a false concept, since there are multiple takes on anything. There are forums where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW really hit the mark with this release!" and there are forums (like this one) where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW can't even forecast how much product to supply anymore!"

To put things another way, I can absolutely guarantee that if GW were to drop prices in 2 months, there would be people complaining about it. In practice there tend not to be moves that are uniformly considered positive or negative.

 Kingsley wrote:
"Objectively subject to criticism" is a false concept, since there are multiple takes on anything. There are forums where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW really hit the mark with this release!" and there are forums (like this one) where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW can't even forecast how much product to supply anymore!"

Well if you have 50 people wanting to buy your widget, and only make 4, and then sell all 4, that is in fact a problem. It's hard to say how many people actually want the widget, but selling out very quickly isn't necessarily an ideal situation imo.

Wow, now we really are down to just copying and pasting.

I too have grown a little weary of the GW hate threads. This doesn't mean though that I think GW is perfect. I think a lot of greivances are well-founded and I'm actually not sure where I stand on a number of them. I've heard a lot of compelling arguments from both sides on the pricing issue in particular.

I think a huge part of it though is that it has become 'cool' to hate on GW, just like it's now cool to hate Call of Duty. I've also noticed that attacking GW is part of the modus operandi for anyone who likes Privateer Press, which a lot of the time comes off as total insecurity. There was a thread on here recently asking what tabletop games everyone was playing, and someone remarked that the lack of votes for Warmachine was disturbing. Now, I play Warmachine so I'm by no means attacking Privateer Press, but it definitely seems like every Warmachine fan has an agenda to 'liberate' others from the tyranny of GW.

I don't mean to trivialize anyone's greivances though, I'm sure a lot of people who post on here have good reasons for feeling the way they do, I just think a lot MORE people go along for the ride cause it's cool to hate.

 Ouze wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
That oogly-not-in-a-good-way giant spider for the Orcs?

Well, I agree they've had a string of misses, mostly with CSM - but are you talking about the Arachnarok? Because that was pretty awesome.

I would rather use a cheap rubber spider from Hallowe'en - it would look better....

Now the Shelob model on the other hand.... She looks fine.

But, well, I like spiders - I know how their bodies go together.

The Arachnocrap is just plain awful. (Made worse by the fact that I really wanted to like it, like I said, I like big spiders....)


(See one of these - kill it. Funnel Web Spiders are bad juju!)

Or, on the more cuddly side of things -

(See one of these things - say hello to the Avondale, the sweetest natured spider that you are likely to lay eyes on. )

The Auld Grump

 Vaktathi wrote:
And finally, GW is actually finally getting competition. Not in the "GW is DOOOOMED" type, but 8 years ago there was only 40k and Fantasy to play in most clubs/stores, now there's far more games that are making much more of a consistent and widespread appearance, and they're increasingly doing things right where GW is not.

I think this is the biggest contributor, honestly.

In the past, if GW made a boneheaded move, you accepted it, griped a bit, and moved on. Because if you wanted to play a tabletop wargame, the people at your store/club were more than likely playing GW games, or Historicals. Some other games came and went - Confrontation, AT43, Starship Troopers, etc. They had short lives, and you could sort of tell.

The last 5-6 years, however, have seen a massive change. Other games have staying power. Warmachine/Hordes is the most obvious, but also Infinity, Malifaux, Flames of War, Dystopian Wars, Firestorm Armada... These games are getting table time at clubs and stores, so people are seeing a reason to try them out. They're seeing a reason to not simply take the boneheaded move and move on.

@TheAuldGrump - seriously not cool. I'm an arachnophobic.

 Kingsley wrote:
"Objectively subject to criticism" is a false concept, since there are multiple takes on anything. There are forums where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW really hit the mark with this release!" and there are forums (like this one) where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW can't even forecast how much product to supply anymore!"

You DO realize that's basically not what happened. They had a number of preorders to fill; they shorted the FLGS their orders in order to stock their website and GW stores, thereby driving sales to GW direct instead of the FLGS. Compare to another company in a similar situation, Fantasy Flight Games. They pulled all of their X Wing stock from their online store to send to distributors in order to get the product out to FLGS as they were selling out too fast.

Knowing GW's recent track record, I would not be surprised if it became the defacto way of doing business; new releases are direct order only for the first few weeks.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
"Objectively subject to criticism" is a false concept, since there are multiple takes on anything. There are forums where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW really hit the mark with this release!" and there are forums (like this one) where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW can't even forecast how much product to supply anymore!"

You DO realize that's basically not what happened. They had a number of preorders to fill; they shorted the FLGS their orders in order to stock their website and GW stores, thereby driving sales to GW direct instead of the FLGS.

As much as I'm not a fan of GW's policies at the moment - care to prove this is what they did outside of anecdotal evidence?

There's more than enough to dislike about GW without inventing things.

 bkiker wrote:
I've shopped around and found GW prices are in line with many other table top games. As for quality, I do think improvement can be made, but the levels people are taking it to again is laughable.

Where did you go price comparison shopping? Between GW stores? Much higher quality boutique resin sculpts from other companies are cheaper than GW's finecast and have less QC issues. That's not even counting the metals from other manufacturers. Howsabout plastics? Hell, Perry plastics (who sculpt for GW) are significantly cheaper than GW's own plastics, and look better (unless you prefer shoeless monkey soldiers of the Empire). Dreamforge plastics are an order of magnitude higher quality than anything GW makes and are cheaper as well.

I have no problem with people wanting to stick up for their choice in what to buy, but GW has a GW-tax the same way Apple has an Apple-tax. The Hhhobby is a state of mind. If you don't mind paying more for less, like Apple fans, then go right ahead. It's your dollar. I own plenty of GW stuff and I have just bought some more (second hand, to be sure) as I think GW makes the best beastmen style infantry. They mix well with my Red Box Games Helsvakt and my Mierce Tarvax. I use them for Warhammer 6th Edition Skirmish and then for Kings of War for mass battles.

 -Loki- wrote:
@TheAuldGrump - seriously not cool. I'm an arachnophobic.

Added a spoiler tag - at least you won't see it when you come back.

Sorry about that - I like spiders, and forget sometimes that others are not fans of the critters.

Now scorpions... those I find creepy....

Even the hairy scorpion, which is pretty danged harmless.

*EDIT* On topic - I would love to have nothing to complain about with GW. I like their settings, I like many of their miniatures (though that has been changing, dangnabit!).

Recently... I just got some Skaven Rat Ogre figures (from the starter set?) and, well... they weren't very good - rather than detailing fur they put in some triangles. No real effort was made to give a feeling of depth.

Which is a shame - GW can, and has, done much better.

As for the Crypt Ghouls.... Could just be the way I feel about their recent style choices... but good gravy....

*EDIT* Removed some material for the Department of the Bureau of Redundancy Agency.

The Auld Grump

There are a lot of great responses, and I want to thank you all for them. I'll just do a blanket response to points and comments that stuck out to me, and make a more in depth response tomorrow. I have noticed that it is easy to find a negative thread here on Dakka. While, I can accept and tell honest criticism when I see it. It seems that post or even threads like that a hard to come by. I have to wade through a sea of post that are negative for the sake of being negative just to find one or two posts that provide a thoughtful and logical response. As one poster put it, I have read a few compelling post for both sides of some of the issues that I brought up.
Creeping-deth87 I think a fair job in summarizing my feelings. I don't think GW is perfect, and I love to have a critical conversation. I have leveled a few criticisms towards GW myself. It's the level and the meanness that threads and posters are going that is turning me off from the hobby more than anything GW does.

Warseer is a lot more upbeat, so I've heard.

That's mean KK.

 Kingsley wrote:

 bkiker wrote:
I hope I'm mistaken and have just stumbled into wrong threads and topics.

Unfortunately, you haven't. The community here on Dakka (and especially here on Dakka Discussions) has become extremely anti-GW over the years. It's more or less guaranteed that any new piece of news regarding GW will be viewed negatively by a large fraction of the forum members-- for instance, even Tau selling out has been characterized as a "debacle" by many people on these boards!

In many ways it was a debacle, because they made promises they couldn't keep. My FLGS budgeted for and placed a rather large order with them, they accepted the order and promised a delivery time, and then tried to stiff them out of almost the entire order (a 4 digit $$$ trade account order) and tell them it'd be another 2-3 weeks before they'd see it. That would have been...very bad for sales had they not managed to harangue their account manager into getting them everything but the Riptides.

When it comes to retail, that's indescribably bad business. Especially since they basically have to sit around waiting for the same internet rumors we do in order to budget and prepare for each release as GW gives them almost no more advance warning of new product than the average customer gets, which is a week.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
And finally, GW is actually finally getting competition. Not in the "GW is DOOOOMED" type, but 8 years ago there was only 40k and Fantasy to play in most clubs/stores, now there's far more games that are making much more of a consistent and widespread appearance, and they're increasingly doing things right where GW is not.

I think this is the biggest contributor, honestly.

In the past, if GW made a boneheaded move, you accepted it, griped a bit, and moved on. Because if you wanted to play a tabletop wargame, the people at your store/club were more than likely playing GW games, or Historicals. Some other games came and went - Confrontation, AT43, Starship Troopers, etc. They had short lives, and you could sort of tell.

The last 5-6 years, however, have seen a massive change. Other games have staying power. Warmachine/Hordes is the most obvious, but also Infinity, Malifaux, Flames of War, Dystopian Wars, Firestorm Armada... These games are getting table time at clubs and stores, so people are seeing a reason to try them out. They're seeing a reason to not simply take the boneheaded move and move on.

Indeed. I remember when it was all GW all the time, with some of those random Warmachine players every once in a while. Now I see other games routinely played all the time, and they deliver in areas where GW seems to consistently fail. What GW has going for them is the Warhammer IP and their market share. I have my own opinions better suited to the Background board on how it has taken a downturn in recent years, but the Warhammer/40k universe IP is essentially GW's most valuable asset, over and above their facilities and rules systems. They're coasting largely on the strength of that and their longstanding market share after the US gaming industry massacred itself on the late 80's/early 90's. Now that it's starting to change, that market domination is meaning less, with customers tastes, preferences, and options changing.

 Kingsley wrote:

I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.

*(Crack) Prices
*Spots the Space marine
*Crack down on non-GW retailers
*Lack of community relationship
*The Hobbit
*(Notso)Finecast

To name a few.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Compare the quality of GW models to other miniature companies(not just table top wargame miniatures)

You will find that GW's pricing is quite reasonible for the quality you get. YOu may pay up to twice as much for a model with similar detail and size without any of the customization GW offers.

Just something to consider.

Can you show me a model that costs twice as much as a GW figure but is inferior? You can even cherry pick.

I have an example based on what's on my desk just now. Warlord Games recently launched a plastic soviet infantry box set (late 2012), with 40 fully customizable figures for £28 (£0.70 each). The closest figures from GW would be Imperial Guard infantry (Cadian/Catachan), from about 2003. They've long since paid off their design and tooling and should be pretty cheap? They come in at 10 for £18 (£1.80 each), or 2.5x more expensive, for decade old figures.

The reason this is so baffling is: They are made from the same material in the same way, GW has huge economy of scale benefits over Warlord Games (including in-house casting).

The only thing in GW's favour is that the figures are a bit bigger (heroic Vs normal 28mm), but they are otherwise the same; pretty generic infantry.

It used to be the case that GW's figures were far superior and competitive, but that hasn't been the case for the last couple of years now.



As to the quality thing, finecast was touted as being an advance on par with the moon landing, and they charged a premium over an already premium brand, yet the quality has been shocking (with a significant amount of figures being miscast, and many reports of them sagging). I personally gave up on finecast after 7 (seven) replacement figures, none of which was cast properly. I've never seen a failure rate like it anywhere else, especially from a premium manufacturer.


So anyway, GW does get a lot of abuse, partially because they are the biggest target, but also partially because they are making embarrassing business decisions on a regular basis and are appearing more and more overpriced as time goes on. And it's going to get worse shortly as we're nearly at annual price rise month.

@Herzlos - I was about to mention Warlord Games as well.