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Heavy Support:
Offer Thunderfire Cannons in groups of 3.

Whirlwinds: Give the whirlwind Multiple Barrage 2

Troops:
Cost the Space marines the same as the other ones. I think the bolter should still be their thing, with a sidearm, but Space Marines really never were bad. I might give them the option to take their special weapons even in small 5 man squads if they pay for them or free as they are now when they hit 10 Marines.

Make the Scouts have Move Through cover, scout and MELTABOMBS standard. YES!

Elites:
Never saw it as a weakness for them

HQ:
Chapter specific leaders is Bad ass. Needs to continue. But some of the characters are a little... and I mean JUST a little... lacking. wont take much to shore them up though so I hope they dont go crazy.
Tigurius the Psyker guy definitely needs to be moreworthwhile to take. He doesn't suck as bad now that psyker powers are so cool, but still...

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Storms need to be squadrons

 Jancoran wrote:
Heavy Support:
Offer Thunderfire Cannons in groups of 3.

I could see this. It would be nice to not have to choose between taking a second of whatever tank I'm bringing and a second TFC. Other armies do have squads for artillery, so it's not right out there. They might have to do something like limit it to one bolster defense per group. Even then, how many things in your deployment zone are there to bolster.

 Jancoran wrote:
Whirlwinds: Give the whirlwind Multiple Barrage 2

While I have always wondered why the whirl wind looks like an ordnance version of the cyclone missle launcher but only fires one missile, they would have to faq the other marines books so their whirlwinds also fired two shots. The current DA price (20pts cheaper than vanilla) would be too cheap if it fired two shots, but for 85 points, firing two shots would be fine.

 Jancoran wrote:
Troops:
Cost the Space marines the same as the other ones. I think the bolter should still be their thing, with a sidearm, but Space Marines really never were bad. I might give them the option to take their special weapons even in small 5 man squads if they pay for them or free as they are now when they hit 10 Marines.

Pretty much do the same thing they did with dark angels.

 Jancoran wrote:
Make the Scouts have Move Through cover, scout and MELTABOMBS standard. YES!

Scouts have move through cover and scout. Standard meltabombs, probably no.

 Jancoran wrote:
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Storms need to be squadrons

I think the land speeder storm would be better served as a dedicated transport option for scouts. The fact that you really only bring it for it's synergy with scouts, but having it eats up a fast attack slot sucks. Other armies have dedicated transports that are skimmers (some even have fliers), so it's not really out there. Making them squadrons instead would limit their synergy for rapidly redeploying scouts.

multiple units of scouts dropping from multiple Storms would be cool.

 pwntallica wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Storms need to be squadrons

I think the land speeder storm would be better served as a dedicated transport option for scouts. The fact that you really only bring it for it's synergy with scouts, but having it eats up a fast attack slot sucks. Other armies have dedicated transports that are skimmers (some even have fliers), so it's not really out there. Making them squadrons instead would limit their synergy for rapidly redeploying scouts.

How about something like 1-3 Storms with 1-3 Scout Squads with them?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They need the ability to play different Chapters, and have the rules be representative of those Chapters, without the need for mandatory special characters. It's been the Marine 'Dex's problem since it came out.

They did Chapter Traits once and it royally sucked...

I don't want to see a return of everyone and their mother playing the exact same Imperial-Blood-Fist-Ravens with 3x infiltrating Dev squads and true-grit everywhere for the 'drawback' of no Land Raiders that you were never going to take anyways.

The problem was with the execution, not the idea. The mix and match style didn't work due to some traits being clearly superior, even drawback traits. What they need is simply a page or two that details the founding chapters that do not have their own codices, and put some benefits and drawbacks on there, rather than tie them to special characters. Basing it on the founding chapters is the easiest way to get a set of archetypes going. Even if you make your own chapter and, like Blood Ravens, don't know their founding chapter, pick one that fits your armies playstyle.

Obviously you'll end up with one or two being the most popular, but hey, GW aren't trying to make the game competitive anymore.

I'd like to see an overall "Primarch" trait, such as Imperial Fists and their successors getting Stubborn, plus a minor "Chapter" level trait, that falls in line of something like warlord traits that apply to the entire army. Or maybe have the Chapter level trait replace the Warlord table (but then that opens it up for all kinds of abuse).

Maybe link the chapter traits to the specific Primarch traits? For example, Rogal Dorn's Primarch trait is Stubborn, and from that, there are 3 sub-traits for the chapters, maybe something like Seige Warfare Specialist (+1 Heavy Support FOC, -1 Fast Attack), Veteran Presence (Sternguard, Terminators, or Vanguard are scoring), and Focused on Vengence (Hatred: pick an army).

The key is to make the Primarch sub-traits all desirable with the main Primarch traits only being decent but not great. Since Combat Tactics works so well in 6th, sacrificing that will hopefully reduce the number of cut-paste army lists.

 -Loki- wrote:


The problem was with the execution, not the idea. The mix and match style didn't work due to some traits being clearly superior, even drawback traits. What they need is simply a page or two that details the founding chapters that do not have their own codices, and put some benefits and drawbacks on there, rather than tie them to special characters. Basing it on the founding chapters is the easiest way to get a set of archetypes going. Even if you make your own chapter and, like Blood Ravens, don't know their founding chapter, pick one that fits your armies playstyle.

Obviously you'll end up with one or two being the most popular, but hey, GW aren't trying to make the game competitive anymore.

This ^ 100 times. It was the execution that was the problem. I really hope that a chapter traits system returns for the SM dex. Special characters can add some things but I hate having to take Vulcan in every battle for example if I want to play Salamanders. Or Lysander if I want to play Imperial Fists. The trait system allowed for so much flavour - the table/process that was used just needed to be adjusted. The concept was great.

Jancoran wrote:multiple units of scouts dropping from multiple Storms would be cool.

Anpu42 wrote:

 pwntallica wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Storms need to be squadrons

I think the land speeder storm would be better served as a dedicated transport option for scouts. The fact that you really only bring it for it's synergy with scouts, but having it eats up a fast attack slot sucks. Other armies have dedicated transports that are skimmers (some even have fliers), so it's not really out there. Making them squadrons instead would limit their synergy for rapidly redeploying scouts.

How about something like 1-3 Storms with 1-3 Scout Squads with them?

I agree that having multiples of them would be beneficial. But what I'm saying is that they are limited by FOC. If it was a choice between squadrons of them or having them as DT, I would prefer DT. You would still have the same number of them, but they wouldn't need to have unit coherency. Being a unit of speeders has it's own pros and cons. Being a single unit means that the enemy can concentrate their fire power on one unit instead of 3, and leave all your scouts foot slogging in the open. It also means you couldn't hop in your LSS and split up to take different objectives or firing positions in different areas. Remember, that the LSS is an open topped version of an already paper thing skimmer.

HOWEVER. They could alternatively have an option for scouts in their profile to take a single LSS as a DT, then in the fast attack section, have their entry allowing them to be in squadrons when taken as FA and not DT. That way you could set it up either way.

I think that would make an interesting army. Have all your troops as scouts, in their dedicated LSS, no longer limited to just 3 of them. Then take some scout bikers for your fast attack. Maybe give your scout bikers locator beacons so the LSS could DS on them if you didn't want them on the table turn 1. Maybe make Telion an IC(or create a scout IC) that could ride in LSS, and give your army a tactic that would work with scouts. Nothing powerful, just a minor force multiplier (maybe something like quicker/reroll reserves for units with scout rule or all units with scout rule have steath). Would give a bunch of flexibility to all scout, or primarily scout armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I'd like to see an overall "Primarch" trait, such as Imperial Fists and their successors getting Stubborn, plus a minor "Chapter" level trait, that falls in line of something like warlord traits that apply to the entire army. Or maybe have the Chapter level trait replace the Warlord table (but then that opens it up for all kinds of abuse).

Maybe link the chapter traits to the specific Primarch traits? For example, Rogal Dorn's Primarch trait is Stubborn, and from that, there are 3 sub-traits for the chapters, maybe something like Seige Warfare Specialist (+1 Heavy Support FOC, -1 Fast Attack), Veteran Presence (Sternguard, Terminators, or Vanguard are scoring), and Focused on Vengence (Hatred: pick an army).

The key is to make the Primarch sub-traits all desirable with the main Primarch traits only being decent but not great. Since Combat Tactics works so well in 6th, sacrificing that will hopefully reduce the number of cut-paste army lists.

A system like this actually sounds really good. If it was done right, it could be really solid. You get one from me

 Ventus wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:


The problem was with the execution, not the idea. The mix and match style didn't work due to some traits being clearly superior, even drawback traits. What they need is simply a page or two that details the founding chapters that do not have their own codices, and put some benefits and drawbacks on there, rather than tie them to special characters. Basing it on the founding chapters is the easiest way to get a set of archetypes going. Even if you make your own chapter and, like Blood Ravens, don't know their founding chapter, pick one that fits your armies playstyle.

Obviously you'll end up with one or two being the most popular, but hey, GW aren't trying to make the game competitive anymore.

This ^ 100 times. It was the execution that was the problem. I really hope that a chapter traits system returns for the SM dex. Special characters can add some things but I hate having to take Vulcan in every battle for example if I want to play Salamanders. Or Lysander if I want to play Imperial Fists. The trait system allowed for so much flavour - the table/process that was used just needed to be adjusted. The concept was great.

My friend and I used them a lot in 3rd edition, and didn't cheese them. One game I had the trait that allowed me to force an extra turn, while my friend, running Imperial Fists, had the trait that allowed his opponent to force an extra turn. Considering I'd won at turn 5, I used these as a fun way to show his Imperial Fists just not retreating. And also draw out the agonising loss.

There's always going to be people who will cheese the system. Even with fixed chapter traits, there will be people running Ultramarines with Salamanders traits if they want a lot of meltas, flamers and thunder hammers. That doesn't mean it should be taken away from the people who want to use it properly, especially, again, with GW seeming to not care about competitive play in 6th.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 pwntallica wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Storms need to be squadrons

I think the land speeder storm would be better served as a dedicated transport option for scouts. The fact that you really only bring it for it's synergy with scouts, but having it eats up a fast attack slot sucks. Other armies have dedicated transports that are skimmers (some even have fliers), so it's not really out there. Making them squadrons instead would limit their synergy for rapidly redeploying scouts.

How about something like 1-3 Storms with 1-3 Scout Squads with them?

Yeah the storms are really uber cool. Let the storm do for scouts what jumppacks do for Vanguard kind of.

I'd like to see marines with two stormbolters.

Lol. TWO FISTED TO THE VERY END!

Ric Ringo wrote:
I'd like to see marines with two stormbolters.

While SBs are normally a two handed weapon, it might be fun for tactical terminators to swap out their powerfist for a second SB. Not worth it if it just make it twin-linked, but if you got to fire both you would kick out a lot of dakka.

But then, I've never looked at my lists and thought "how can I get more bolter rounds downrange"

Cinematically and from a modeling standpoint it would be cool though...

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I'd like to see an overall "Primarch" trait, such as Imperial Fists and their successors getting Stubborn, plus a minor "Chapter" level trait, that falls in line of something like warlord traits that apply to the entire army. Or maybe have the Chapter level trait replace the Warlord table (but then that opens it up for all kinds of abuse).

Maybe link the chapter traits to the specific Primarch traits? For example, Rogal Dorn's Primarch trait is Stubborn, and from that, there are 3 sub-traits for the chapters, maybe something like Seige Warfare Specialist (+1 Heavy Support FOC, -1 Fast Attack), Veteran Presence (Sternguard, Terminators, or Vanguard are scoring), and Focused on Vengence (Hatred: pick an army).

The key is to make the Primarch sub-traits all desirable with the main Primarch traits only being decent but not great. Since Combat Tactics works so well in 6th, sacrificing that will hopefully reduce the number of cut-paste army lists.

I'm in, this could work really well...

And its canon!

All codex SM needs imo is standardised points costs for wargear across all marine codexes that use them i.e. a missile launcher for a dev squad is X points regardless of whether it is in codex space wolves or codex space marines.

Also flakk missiles for dev squads.

Finally make chapter tactics either an option for captains/chapter masters or something you buy with the army for X amount of points without it taking up a force slot.

Then give chaos marines the same option with Legion Tactics.

rohansoldier wrote:
All codex SM needs imo is standardised points costs for wargear across all marine codexes that use them i.e. a missile launcher for a dev squad is X points regardless of whether it is in codex space wolves or codex space marines.

Also flakk missiles for dev squads.

Finally make chapter tactics either an option for captains/chapter masters or something you buy with the army for X amount of points without it taking up a force slot.

Then give chaos marines the same option with Legion Tactics.

Points differences often occur due to balance changes. Special rules etc can affect this.

Also if you did that, you might as well just roll them all into one and get it over with.

CONSISTENCY!!!! Why are so many similar-ly equipped and outfitted models different points (yes, CSM and Grey Hunters, I'm pointing at you)

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
CONSISTENCY!!!! Why are so many similar-ly equipped and outfitted models different points (yes, CSM and Grey Hunters, I'm pointing at you)

What does this have to do with what Codex Space Marines will get in 6th edition? That's a completely different topic.

Yeah. In the new codex, it should be interesting to see how they make Ultramarines the pinultimate codex i nthe universe.

One assumes the Storm Raven will be physically included in the codex. I assume that skyfire devs will be made available.

Since the Storm Raven was made available to Codex Space Marines in Death from the Skies, it's not even an assumption that it'll be in the book. There's no doubt.

And Skyfire Devastators is a given - Flakk Missiles.

I agree with most of the people. (Except the ones who want to nerf my Vulkan! ) The Space Marine codex is, in general, pretty balanced, and not so much in need of an update. A few minor point tweaks here and there. That being said, I would like to see some reliable anti-aircraft, and I would LOVE to see a flyer that doesn't look like a hovering dumpster. I don't really care what the rules for it are, just so long as the model looks good!

 Jimsolo wrote:
I agree with most of the people. (Except the ones who want to nerf my Vulkan! ) The Space Marine codex is, in general, pretty balanced, and not so much in need of an update. A few minor point tweaks here and there. That being said, I would like to see some reliable anti-aircraft, and I would LOVE to see a flyer that doesn't look like a hovering dumpster. I don't really care what the rules for it are, just so long as the model looks good!

And thus Jimsolo damned Space Marine players everywhere with the flying equivalent of Mandrakes...

It's not like marines have ever cared about anything silly like aerodynamics. We've been bolting anti-grav engines onto boxes and couches sine the RT era.

You want sexy and streamlined? Go Eldar. You want to bolt some guns onto a flying box? We're your army!

 Nevelon wrote:
It's not like marines have ever cared about anything silly like aerodynamics. We've been bolting anti-grav engines onto boxes and couches sine the RT era.

You want sexy and streamlined? Go Eldar. You want to bolt some guns onto a flying box? We're your army!

cardboard box at that, our PA is more reliable according to fluff!

GW is going to release new kits for SM whether you like it or not.

A plastic veterans box would be great, maybe a Stern/Vanguard combo?

I would also freak over a plastic terminator character box, just like the SM captain box. But have bits to make a captain, libby, or chappy.

And count on a new vehicle of some sort. I am thinking a new tank of some kind.

 SickSix wrote:
GW is going to release new kits for SM whether you like it or not.

A plastic veterans box would be great, maybe a Stern/Vanguard combo?

I would also freak over a plastic terminator character box, just like the SM captain box. But have bits to make a captain, libby, or chappy.

And count on a new vehicle of some sort. I am thinking a new tank of some kind.

Id like to see the old Relic/venerable to make a comeback. It looked so much better than the current one. But I bet we get an MC of some kind

Ditch a ton of the Ultramarines SC, The tank guy, the Scout guy, etc everyone but Calgar and their Librarian )Tigrus I think?)

Add SC from some other chapters
Blood Ravens (Not my pick but popular so they should be in)
Iron Hands
Black Templars (Helbrect unlocks ability to promote one sergeant to Emperors Champion and gives the neophytes in squads and other Black Templar rules)
Black Dragons (or other cursed founding chapters)
Legion of Damned (SC unlocks them as troops choices)


Chapter Traits
Just little things to make your chapter feel like your own
Basically you pick a Founding, then Seed Chapter, then Battle Tactics, each selection gives you different stuff for instance:

Cursed Founding- Roll on d6 chart for a random buff
Raven Guard- Gives access to Jump Pack HQs
Bolter Drill-Gives bolter drill special rules army wide

something like that obviously playtested for balance and such



Better Wargear for HQ choices again so they feel like your own



General Points Reductions

 SickSix wrote:
GW is going to release new kits for SM whether you like it or not.

A plastic veterans box would be great, maybe a Stern/Vanguard combo?

I would also freak over a plastic terminator character box, just like the SM captain box. But have bits to make a captain, libby, or chappy.

And count on a new vehicle of some sort. I am thinking a new tank of some kind.

Another?

I thought the SM codex was too crowded already...

On the topic of special characters, I have the last few editions of C:SM here, let's see who showed up when...

Ultramarines:
Mareus Calgar (3, 4, 5)
Librarian Tigurius (3, 4, 5)
Chaplain Cassius (4,5)
Cato Sicarius (5)
Sgt. Telion (5)
Sgt. Chronos (5)

Crimson Fists:
Captain Cortez (3)
Pedro Kantor (5)

Black Templars:
Emperor's Champion (3)

Salamaders:
Chaplain Xavier (3)
Vulcan He'stan (5)

Imperial Fists:
Sgt. Lysander (3)
Captain Lysander (4,5)

Raven Guard:
Kayvaan Shrike (4, 5)

White Scars:
Kor'sarro Khan (5)

Of the 1st founding chapters, only the Iron Hands are lacking a character. Two characters have been dropped, Cortez and Xavier, but both were replaced with new special characters from their chapters. "New" being used loosely in regards to Kantor, as some of us recall his battle at the farm in the old RT days.

If they were going to trim some characters to make room for new ones, I'm not sure who would go. If they implemented a custom chapter system based on captains, I could see a few of them going away as specials, replaced with build-your-own equivalents. But I don't want to see chapters lacking representation. The Ultramarine sergeants could be trimmed. Telion would be missed, don't think anyone would care about Chronos. He needs a major re-work anyway. Cassius has a lot of the modern flavor of the ulramarines. Plus if you file the name off, his stats fit the fluff of most of the other chapters.

There are 6 founding chapters that get lumped into C:SM. The Crimson Fists also get an honorary spot from the RT days. I'd like to see a better representation. Maybe something like one captain/chapter master plus one "other" from each. If you need to re-brand some characters with different fluff, but keep the same rules, that's fine. Telion might work even better as a Raven Guard sergeant, Chronos can ride with the Iron Hands.

I'd also like to see a special character MotF, as that's the one HQ not represented in the basic codex.