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 Peregrine wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

None. Because it took about 30 seconds to realize that they are worse than the other options I could take.

Exactly. That's pretty much all you need to say.

So let's ask the same: how many new-codex games have you played with allied boyz and IG platoons?

When did I say that wasn't a viable option? I understand the appeal to that strat, I'm just not foolish enough to make definitive statements about a unit that has existed for all of one week...

 Peregrine wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

None. Because it took about 30 seconds to realize that they are worse than the other options I could take.

Exactly. That's pretty much all you need to say.

So let's ask the same: how many new-codex games have you played with allied boyz and IG platoons?

Are you asking how many games has he played with Tau/Orks or Tau/IG?

I can't answer for him, but i've played around 10 against a variety of lists and codices. Kroot have been used along-side Boyz and Warriors and I haven't once been upset, or felt hamstrung by taking them. They've generally done their job effectively (cap an objective, act as a speedbump or lay down some nice and surprising supporting fire on other squishy troops/MCs).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I could take 3 squads of Boyz, I would, but I can't so I take some Kroot to fill that role. I've also had success outflanking them and getting rear objectives off of opponents who dont guard their's well.

No, they really don't. Hoping for 6s on a STR 3 weapon is a joke against vehicles.

Just wanted to point this out, because Crons are kind of my thing, but you've obviously never played with Necrons. Sniper rifles against light vehicles are basically superior to Gauss, with the added benefit of being able to Pen AV 10/11. Also, its the Sniper Rifle fire+Autocannon fire. You'll kill vehicles-a-plenty if you need to with that unit.

Another thing you seem to be ignoring with the Sniper Rifles is Precision Shots. This significantly increases their ability to do meaningful damage over the standard pulse rifle.

 TheMind wrote:
A Kroot is fine too.

Seriously, Infiltrating TROOPS that are also Sniper for 7pnts each? I'll take 120! But seriously, I'd probably take 2 units in any competitive list, backed up by a unit of firewarriors and pathfinders each. That'd be the core of the army right there.

I love the kroot, but dislike the sniper gun. Everytime I've had kroot around, it was mathematically more viable to move and shoot than it was to sit still and hope the sniper rounds do their thing. Sniper rounds are nice, but the range is still garbage for it, and your kroot then have to squat where they are. I don't like that at all.

After a couple of years reading through these forums, I gotta ask...
Peregrine, Is there any unit in this game you don't bash on as being garbage?

He can't say Vendettas are garbage.

 Peregrine wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

None. Because it took about 30 seconds to realize that they are worse than the other options I could take.

Exactly. That's pretty much all you need to say.

So let's ask the same: how many new-codex games have you played with allied boyz and IG platoons?

I have (with IG).

I found that paying a 50 points allies tax for the mandatory HQ and the first blood / free killpoint it gives to my oponent too step compared to newKroot.

And that is without factoring in that kroot have the ability to outflank reliably (doggie) and/or infiltrate rapidfire autocannons.


Edit: Oh, Kroot also factor in for combined overwatch and markerlights, both of which are admittedly more situational.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
When did I say that wasn't a viable option? I understand the appeal to that strat, I'm just not foolish enough to make definitive statements about a unit that has existed for all of one week...

The point is that if you had played with those options you'd immediately realize how bad Kroot are in comparison.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Just wanted to point this out, because Crons are kind of my thing, but you've obviously never played with Necrons. Sniper rifles against light vehicles are basically superior to Gauss, with the added benefit of being able to Pen AV 10/11.

Except gauss is mostly a gimmick, and only really becomes relevant against high-AV targets where even heavy weapons need to roll 5-6 to do anything. Against light vehicles it's pretty much worthless unless you managed to bring some kind of bizarre list with no tesla spam. So saying that sniper rifles can match gauss weapons against Rhinos is a pretty weak claim.

(And don't forget that gauss is an auto-glance on a 6 regardless of AV, while snipers have to roll a 6 and then do well enough on the D3 roll.)

 taudau wrote:
I found that paying a 50 points allies tax for the mandatory HQ and the first blood / free killpoint it gives to my oponent too step compared to newKroot.

So why don't you put a lord commissar in the blob for your HQ instead of taking the free kill point, solving your morale problems in the process?

And that is without factoring in that kroot have the ability to outflank reliably (doggie) and/or infiltrate rapidfire autocannons.

IG platoons can outflank (and bring a lot more firepower in the process), and IG autocannons don't care about infiltrating because they have full-table range with both shots.

 Peregrine wrote:
Bolters against Kroot = 0.666 kills per hit.

Bolters against Kroot in 5+ cover = 0.45 kills per hit.

Bolters against MEQs = 0.166666 kills per hit.

Peregrine, saying that a bolter hit will kill X number of targets really isn't a valid measuring stick. While you mentioned the post costs briefly, thats the key factor in determining the 'durability' of a troop. I suggest a value called RPP for this purpose, which derives the durability of units and assigns it a specific value.
Base resilience = 1/(((To Hit) * (To Wound) * (Fail Save) * (Fail FNP)) / (Wounds))
Divide this value by the cost of the model to get its resilience-per-point (RPP)
Base resilience per point = ((Base resilience)/(Point Cost)) * 100

So how do kroot line up against grey hunters?
GH LG RPP.................120.0
GH Bolter RPP.............59.99
GH Helldrake RPP.......8
GH AC RPP..................36

Kroot out of cover
LG RPP.................66.67
Bolter RPP.............37.50
Helldrake RPP.......20
AC RPP..................30

Kroot in cover (non-woods)
LG RPP.................100
Bolter RPP.............56.25
Helldrake RPP.......20
AC RPP..................45

So are kroot more durable than marines? Well, it depends on what they are getting shot by, and if they have cover.
Add woods or any 4+ cover to the kroot, and their values will be higher than GH.

 Peregrine wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
When did I say that wasn't a viable option? I understand the appeal to that strat, I'm just not foolish enough to make definitive statements about a unit that has existed for all of one week...

The point is that if you had played with those options you'd immediately realize how bad Kroot are in comparison.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Just wanted to point this out, because Crons are kind of my thing, but you've obviously never played with Necrons. Sniper rifles against light vehicles are basically superior to Gauss, with the added benefit of being able to Pen AV 10/11.

Except gauss is mostly a gimmick, and only really becomes relevant against high-AV targets where even heavy weapons need to roll 5-6 to do anything. Against light vehicles it's pretty much worthless unless you managed to bring some kind of bizarre list with no tesla spam. So saying that sniper rifles can match gauss weapons against Rhinos is a pretty weak claim.

(And don't forget that gauss is an auto-glance on a 6 regardless of AV, while snipers have to roll a 6 and then do well enough on the D3 roll.)

 taudau wrote:
I found that paying a 50 points allies tax for the mandatory HQ and the first blood / free killpoint it gives to my oponent too step compared to newKroot.

So why don't you put a lord commissar in the blob for your HQ instead of taking the free kill point, solving your morale problems in the process?

And that is without factoring in that kroot have the ability to outflank reliably (doggie) and/or infiltrate rapidfire autocannons.

IG platoons can outflank (and bring a lot more firepower in the process), and IG autocannons don't care about infiltrating because they have full-table range with both shots.

Oh, blob IG squads, yeah that sounds like a reasonable idea. Now let's add a Lord Comissar, maybe a manticore, a couple of valkyries and.. oh, wait, why am I not just using Codex Imperial Guard again?

Great solution Peregrine, as always your logic is flawless...


Edit: On a more serious note.

IG blobs squads do not get stealth in woods for free (effectively making 75% of all terrain on normal boards 4+ and up cover).

IG blobs squads are less points efficient for "scoring only" purposes once you factor in the mandatory HQ tax.

IG infantry is unable to infiltrate into flanking positions to get side armor shots with their autocannons.

IG infantry with auto cannon also does not encourage my oponent to spread out across his deployment zone to block infiltratiors that could do the above.

 taudau wrote:

IG blobs squads do not get stealth in woods for free (effectively making 75% of all terrain on normal boards 4+ and up cover).

.

Where in the hell do you play that has a box of terrain thats 3/4's forests?

davou wrote:

 taudau wrote:

IG blobs squads do not get stealth in woods for free (effectively making 75% of all terrain on normal boards 4+ and up cover).

.

Where in the hell do you play that has a box of terrain thats 3/4's forests?

Ruins also provide a 4+ cover save and I'd wager that ruins and forests do, in fact, make up a large portion of most peoples terrain.

Kroot are like Blood Claws. On paper they suck, but when you synergize them right they will probably do amazing things.
Max sized Blood Claws lead by a Wolf Priest can hold an objective or seize one and hold it well even vs. 20 boy Ork mobs if you do it right.

19 Kroot with Sniper Rifles, 3 Krotox Riders, 10 Kroot Hounds and a Shaper will run you about 230 points
Put one of your Objectives that just happens to be in a set of Woods.
Now you have a 33 Models with 38 woods with 4+ cover saves.
Now put a Fire Warriors, Sniper Drone Teams or Drone Squadrons with in supporting Fire Range and they will be very hard for all but the most dedicated assault to dislodge them.

The other reason I equate them to Blood Claws is List Building. A successful Blood Claw list requires you to build your list around them, not tacking them on at the end.
Most Kroot list I think will be the same. You buy your Kroot first and then the rest of your list.

I am not saying that they will become game changers, but they will add a dynamic addition to your army.

Yet again I am amused by people who argue with peregrine and don't realize he refuses to accept any method of playing other then his own as a possibility, cannot grasp the concept of multi-purpose units in a futile attempt to brake them to their components and disregard any tactical value of units beyond "unit X shoot at Y".
An argument with him will lead you nowhere, no number of facts, mathematics or batreps will ever convince him that he is wrong about anything, or that he underestimated a unit he regards as junk.

That being said, we got 2 troops, FW and kroot.

FW teams are not expensive, got a great gun, and have built-in synergy with the rest of the army using supporting fire, they can be used for devilfish maneuvers, they can ping of enemies from afar and force them to close the distance, and they can be EMP commandos that discourage enemy armor from going anywhere near.

Kroot teams are among the cheapest units in the game per model, can outflank, can get the autocannon variation of the kroot gun, great in forested tables, can take down lightly armored enemies in melee, can be used for sniper teams, etc.

Both units may not have great Ld score, neither are very sturdy, bot both has distinct tactical uses that few other troop units can preform, and both are very cheap compared to the firepower they pack.
Also, neither unit is alone out there, there will be other units backing them up, and there is more then one way to offer them buffs in the codex.

Who's better?
Depends on their job and the surrounding units.
But both are more then decent, and even with them being so "bad at holding objectives" I find myself still holding them with my firewarriors (kroot are not my flavor), or at the very lest making sure my opponents holds fewer then me.

Sure, I might bring along more troops then marines do, but they did not cost me as much.
Sure, horde armies can outnumber me for the price, but their holders usually don't contribute much if any to the fight.

End of story, the concept of "these troops are bad, get minimum squads" that dominated the old Tau mindset is the very reason WHY they were bad.
They have the cost to be taken in numbers, and once in numbers they can dish out real punishment on the opponent, and are not -that- easy to remove.

Its not power-armor, but its beats the horde's livability, people just miss the fact our troops are neither this nor that, but a point in the middle, and the basic thing you learn about the game is that units must be min-maxed for them to work, either totally one thing or totally the other.
And to play tau properly you must grasp that the midpoint is sometimes the best point, at least you are flexible.

Who cares anymore? This thread has gotten outta hand. Sheesh

To sum up the productive part of the thread (I think everyone has contributed to that to some degree);

Its a compromise between mobility and firepower - for the foot-options available to us. Kroot have realistic access to the backfield, via a number of different methods (outflanking, Drone-assisted-outflanking (which could be cascaded!) and infiltrating).

For the cost of bodies & vehicles and the need to get-out-and-capture, I don't think devilfishes are going to do well. Minimum cost is too high and not enough firepower or versatility. OTOH 4+ cover and the ability to disgorge 11PF & a FC rapid-firing 36 BS3-10 shots, that could hurt things. (Yes I said BS10... You may never 'waste' 20 ML shots at a single target but.. now you can join the Bloodthirster with crazy-high BS).

The final point I've realised that, whilst allies in all other armies may work well - providing options like decent scoring troops or anti-air, it will often work against a Tau player. In a markerlight-less army, allies will be fine but with the option to boost your basic troops, drones, riptides or broadsides etc with markerlight tokens... its just too good to pass up on. IMHO