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Been testing out the new Tau as much as possible and decided to test it vs. a formidable CSM/Necron Flyer build. Played the game using Vassal, I also have pictures in the Bat Rep on my blog: http://rhetorical40k.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/batrep-tauorks-vs-csmnecron-1850/

Thanks for looking!

The list I used was:

Commander - 2 Fusion Blaster, Velocity Tracker, Iridium Armor, Drone Controller, 2 Marker Drones - 192
Ethereal - 50

2 Crisis Suits - 2 TL Fusion/Flamer, 4 Marker Drones - 142

9 Firewarriors - 81
9 Firewarriors - 81
18 Kroot - 18 Snipers - 126

8 Pathfinders - 88

2 Broadsides - 2 Missile Drone - 154
2 Broadsides - 2 Missile Drone - 154
2 Broadsides - 2 Missile Drone - 154

Warboss - Bike, Power Klaw - 125

28 Shoota Boyz - Big Shoota - 173
29 Shoota Boyz - Big Shoota - 179

10 Lootas - 150

This is looking like the template I will use. I think the list gives me the proper tools to handle any army I could face. The Broadsides are incredible (i'll touch on this in my codex review, but they remind me so much of Long Fangs in their duality of purpose). I have many different range-bands, from 48" to 24" and pack a variety of different Strength weapons. AV14 could be a little scary, but I think my melta-man commander can take care of them while providing a nice 21" threat radius to keep LRs at bay (not that I much fear the contents of a LR). Flyers are easy to ignore with 134 infantry models to clog up movement and soak up shooting. Heldrakes can be worrisome but I also believe that the list has the tools to take them down. The Warboss gives me the ability to MC hunt and late game contest if needed.

Anyway, I wanted to test out the list versus a big dog in the meta, CSM/Crons, because it'd be a good litmus test. The list my opponent used was as follows:

Nemesor Zahndrekh - 185
Chaos Lord - MoK, Juggernaut, Axe of Blind Fury - 145

2 Crypteks - Despair, Storm - 55

5 Deathmarks - 95
Night Scythe - 100

5 Warriors - 65
Night Scythe - 100
8 Immortals - 136
Night Scythe - 100
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50

Heldrake - 170
Heldrake - 170
4 Chaos Spawn - MoK - 128
5 Wraiths - 175

Aegis - Comms - 70

I'm pretty fond of this list as well, I think it has the necessary tools to compete and a nice bit of flexibility with Zahndrekh.

Pre-game:

I rolled up Scouring with Hammer and Anvil deployment. We decided to do modified Scouring with even value objectives. Tau/Orks won the roll to choose sides and I placed all my objectives in my deployment zone, my opponent did the same. I also won the roll for first turn and chose second.

My warlord was the Commander and he rolled up the 3d6 Jetpack movement (it did come in handy) and my opponent rolled up stealth ruins, which really didn't matter, though he may have forgotten about it.

Deployment:


My deployment was nothing special, but my big goal for this game was to clog up his movement lanes so he could not easily maneuver his Flyers.

My opponent deployed defensively because he was worried that my shooting could blow away both of his assault units.

I declined to seize the initiative.

CSM/Necron Turn 1:

My opponent moved nothing and stayed absolutely still in order to deny me shooting. He preferred to stay put and let his Flyers alpha-strike me.

Tau/Orks Turn 1:

I also did very little in my turn, I took the time to spread my units out as to not give up many desirable options for the Heldrakes. I figured my opponent would go for the Kroot or Orks so I decided to max out coherency as much as possible. I also got my Crisis team in position to shoot at a Flyer.

CSM/Necron Turn 2:

My opponent got all of his Flyers and was able to keep both Cultist squads out of reserves. He moved the Spawn up ever so slightly. All the Flyers moved up gingerly as to avoid the full-brunt of my shooting/Markerlighting. They also set-up to take down the Kroot in the top wooded area.

The shooting phase was painful.... for my opponent. He forgot that Kroot had Stealth in the forests and so they could GTG for a 2+ cover save. The 3 Destructors totaled around 13W and I managed to only lose a handful of Kroot, the Helturkeys then fried another 8 of them. I failed my LD and fell back around 6". No First Blood to my opponent, which would surely matter in a game like this (objectives in far apart deployment zones).

Tau/Orks Turn 2:

Basically my plan for this turn was to clog up all his movement lanes in order to force him off the table. I spread out my units and measured out the Flyer trajectories and made sure to block all the paths off. My Crisis suits, Broadsides and Lootas got into position to shoot down some planes! The Kroot regrouped!

In the shooting phase melta-man Commander hit the Heldrake closest to him twice and both Crisis suits also managed to hit. The 4 hits yielded 1 pen which the Helturkey promptly shrugged off. However, 2 Marker Drones also hit and thus I had some Skyfire BS buffs to handout. My first Broadside unit shot the same Helturkey with BS2 and managed 1 Pen which was also saved. The second unit then shot and hit 8 times! This yielded 3 glances and a pen which predictably sunk the beast. The Lootas rolled poorly and managed 1 hit on Zahndrekh's Scythe which caused a glance. The last Broadside unit shot Zahnny's Scythe and forced it to jink with 4 hits that ended up doing nothing at all.

CSM/Necron Turn 3:

Due to my trickery my opponent was forced to take his Flyers off the board. One squad of Cultists came on and sat back to make a late-game objective. The Wraiths begun to move up.

Tau/Ork Turn 3:

Crickets again... This is why friends don't let friends play with too many planes. All kidding aside, this turn was quite uneventful, I shimmied some units around for position on Turn 4 and my Lootas managed to strip a Wraith of a wound.

CSM/Necron Turn 4:

All the Flyers came back on and the last squad of Cultists also came on in order to capture the last of the 3 objectives. My opponent finally decided to move up the Spawn in order to charge my blue Ork squad and hopefully remove them from the objective. The Wraiths also moved towards that flank. The Flyers all came on near melta-man, I think the plan was to slay my warlord and position for turn 5/6 contesting shenanigans.

My opponent focused all the Scythes on the Warlord's squad and did a wound to him and a wound to a suit.

Tau/Ork Turn 4:

I finally got a chance to make use of the sweet new Ethereal buffs. I gave my units within 12" Snapfire after running. My melta-man commander and friends moved up to kill the Helturkey and the Lootas and some Broadsides moved into position to shoot Scythes/Spawn.

Melta-man once again got 2 hits on a Turkey, this time within melta range thus penetrating it twice but he would once again be denied the pleasure of blowing it out of the sky. The Marker Drones also failed to hit. 2 Squads of Broadsides shot the Heldrake but it made both of its saves against glances. The Pathfinders lit up the Spawn, despite Snap-firing they managed 3 hits. I used these to deny cover forcing my opponent to choose between taking saves on the Juggerlord or losing wounds on Spawn outright. The Lootas shot at them and forced 2 wounds on the Lord. The Broadside team then managed something like 12 wounds causing another wound to the Lord and killing a spawn. Big Shootas/Fire Warrior shots put a glance on the Warrior Night Scythe.

CSM/Necron Turn 5:

My opponent moved the spawn up to tie up the Boyz, the Heldrake went after some Fire Warriors while Vector Striking the Warlord squad. The Wraiths also moved up to engage on turn 6. My opponent planned to take down the Pathfinders this turn hoping to get a victory point for killing my FA and the Ethereal. He was also jockeying for position on turn 6, which he really needed to happen. All 3 Cultist squads moved up to capture their objectives.

The Vector Strike killed my wounded Suit and took out a Drone. The flamer then took out 6 Fire Warriors who passed morale (thanks Ethereal!). The Scythes all focused on the Pathfinders, who went to ground and thus lost only 4 models (they also passed morale, thanks Ethereal x2). Arcs took out a few Lootas and couldn't scratch Broadside armor.

The assault phase went very poorly for my opponent. OW from the Orks caused something like 6W, the Lord then failed 3 LOS rolls and 1 armor save. The Spawn made it in and killed a few Orks. I killed a Spawn in return.

Tau/Ork Turn 5:

I moved a bunch of Orks to get rear armor shots on the Turkey, a Broadside team also moved to get some shots. Fire Warriors got into position to capture objectives. The Commander with his awesome Warlord trait covered a lot of ground to contest an objective and get Linebreaker. My Warboss moved to get into position to charge anyone silly enough to disembark on my back objective.

My shooting phase consisted of my shooting everything at the Heldrake and doing 2 HPs. 40 rear armor Ork shots yielded 1 glance that was saved. Rear armor Broadside shots did a few pens/glances but most were saved, 1 went through. The side-armor Broadsides whiffed completely. Lootas rolled up 30 shots but only hit 2 times, luckily one of them glanced and wasn't saved. Yay!

Assault saw me kill another spawn but still be stuck in, I preferred to get out and consolidate to block Wraiths and get a chance to over watch them, but alas.

My opponent rolled for Turn 6 and got it.

CSM/Necron Turn 6:

My opponent needed turn 6 to happen. This gave him a chance to hurt me. He disembarked the Warrior squad to shoot at my Fire Warriors capturing the bottom objective. The Wraiths moved in to assault me. The Heldrake Vectored the 3 man squad into oblivion and Zahndrekh and friends got out to capture the objective. The Deathmarks disembarked to kill the Pathfinder/Ethereal squad who had GTG last turn.

The Heldrake/Warriors managed to wipe out the blue Fire Warriors. The Deathmarks whiffed against the Pathfinders. Shooting from Cultist pistols did nothing to my HQ squad.

The Wraiths charged the Orks who managed to wipe out the Spawn and kill 1 Wraith. I lost a handful of Orks but nothing to be concerned about.

Tau/Ork Turn 6:

My opponent must had forgotten about the Flamer on my Crisis suits, so I moved up to put down a nice template on the Cultists. My Warlord detached in order to use his sweet 3d6 assault move for contesting purposes. My Warboss detached to charge Zahndrekh and contest. Kroot moved to get some rear armor shots on the Heldrake.

The Helturkey needed to die, just because I didn't like it. So I decided to start with the Kroot. They managed to hit it 3 times, then glance it twice, one of them went through and the Kroot did what melta-man couldn't. The rest of my shooting was focused on the Warriors, who went down like a wet-towel (Cryptek didn't get up) and the Deathmarks who also folded (Cryptek didn't get up). My Crisis suit killed 4 Cultists who then ran off the board like goils.

The Orks ate overwatch from Immortals for my Warboss (OW caused a handful of wounds) and the Warboss then got into combat. I decided to challenge Nemesor and my opponent accepted, hoping that I rolled poorly or he rolled well on his 3++. That didn't happen. Nemesor went splat and then I swept the squad (Nemesor didn't get back up either!). The Wraiths and Orks slapped each other around a bit more but nothing notable happened.

I rolled to see if the game ends and once again it continues. Though this time I've little to fear.

CSM/Necron Turn 7:

Flyers flew off the board. Cultists got ready to charge my Warlord.

In assault my Warlord killed the Aspiring Champion (Aspiring being the keyword here) and the Cultists killed a Drone. The Wraiths killed a few more Orks but I somehow passed my LD5 check, bummer!

Tau/Ork Turn 7:

Clean up time! I'm an donkey-cave so I wanted to make sure to capture as many objectives as possible. Just kidding... maybe not. My Warboss reconnected with his Boyzz to capture the middle objective. Kroot moved to grab the top objective and the Pathfinders joined the Ethereal to grab the bottom objective.

In assault the Wraiths mopped up my Boyz and the Cultists and my Commander tickled one another, doing absolutely nothing.

Game ends and I win with Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker, First Blood and 3 Objectives to 1.

Thoughts:

The list performed well. I know i'll catch gak for not using Interceptor or Skyfire on my Broadsides, but I like them cheap. They also managed to do their job regardless. The Melta-man Commander was a bit of a disappointment, but it wasn't his fault that the Heldrakes made all 3 saves vs. his AP1 goodness. The ability to move across the board quick towards the end with the Suits was really nice. The Biker boss did what they've done in the past, he reached out and smacked down a unit not fit for CC (I really like having a mini-MC with such a large threat radius). The Pathfinders were so-so but they spent most of the game Skyfiring or GTG so I wasn't too upset. All in all, I enjoy the way the list plays and I think it'll be more than sufficient when taking on Flyer-based armies.

Your opponent's list shows some promise, but he'd be better off dumping Zandrehk, court and deathmarks for a D-lord and some annihilation barges. This would have probably given your army a much harder time:


Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS, ResOrb - 190
Chaos Lord - MoK, Juggernaut, Axe of Blind Fury - 145

5 Warriors - 65
Night Scythe - 100
5 Warriors - 65
Night Scythe - 100
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50

Heldrake - 170
Heldrake - 170
5 Chaos Spawn - MoK - 160
5 Wraiths - 2 whips - 195

Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90

Aegis - Comms - 70

1850


Congrats on the decisive victory. I like the combo of Torks. They were good pre-new Tau. I think they will continue to be a good combo afterwards.

Yeah. The only problem I see with that is a lack of hardy troops. None of those squads can really capture and hold. Being able to hold midfield is super important in say a 5x5 NOVA type of format. I think in that case it's important to have a very durable troop choice. Also cannot take 3 barges due to CSM primary for double Drake. I'm not sure barges scare me that much as Destructors aren't super effective vs massed Infantry lists.

This would be the list to aim at:

1 Destroyer Lord w/ Mindshackles, Weave
1 Khornelord w/ Jug, Axe, Sigil


5 Necron Warriors w/ Nightscythe
5 Necron Warriors w/ Nightscythe
10 Chaos Cultists
10 Chaos Cultists

1 Helldrake w/ Baleflamer
1 Helldrake w/ Baleflamer
5 Chaos Spawn of Khorne
5 Canoptek Wraiths w/ 2 Whipcoils

1 Annihilation Barge
3 Oblits of Nurgle w/ Votlw

1 Aegis Defense Line w/ Comms Station

Yeah, but both of those lists weaken the troop section. And I'm not sure 3 Oblits a Dlord and an extra Spawn would have been too big of a deal. My shooting should be able to take care of both mini deathstars in one turn, if not it'll almost certainly remove one and cripple the other.

 jy2 wrote:
Your opponent's list shows some promise, but he'd be better off dumping Zandrehk, court and deathmarks for a D-lord and some annihilation barges. This would have probably given your army a much harder time:


Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS, ResOrb - 190
Chaos Lord - MoK, Juggernaut, Axe of Blind Fury - 145

5 Warriors - 65
Night Scythe - 100
5 Warriors - 65
Night Scythe - 100
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50

Heldrake - 170
Heldrake - 170
5 Chaos Spawn - MoK - 160
5 Wraiths - 2 whips - 195

Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90

Aegis - Comms - 70

1850


Congrats on the decisive victory. I like the combo of Torks. They were good pre-new Tau. I think they will continue to be a good combo afterwards.

This list is not legal for 1850 pt game. Since the Necrons are the Allied attachment you can not have 3 Annihilation barges? Unless they can squadron? Or you could not have 2 Helldrakes if they are the allied unit...

Oops! My bad on the list.

In any case, with 2 fast deathstars to control the board, the number of troops he has is ok. Deathstars threaten any unit that moves to the middle of the board. Flyers lend air support to the ground forces. I feel that what he has is enough to hold the middle against most armies.

 jy2 wrote:
Oops! My bad on the list.

In any case, with 2 fast deathstars to control the board, the number of troops he has is ok. Deathstars threaten any unit that moves to the middle of the board. Flyers lend air support to the ground forces. I feel that what he has is enough to hold the middle against most armies.

Yeah, it might be. Though im fairly confident I could have wiped out both deathstars in a turn, or at least 1 and cripple the other.

It depends on the terrain really. I don't know what type of terrain you guys were playing on, but in a Nova-type tournament, there is usually some LOS-blocking type of terrain in the middle where he could hide his assault units, at least for a turn.

Your opponent's army is a beta-strike army. He needs to get his hammer units into position for a T2 assault. Then when his flyers come in on T2, he can strike with his entire army. Then again, if there was no terrain for him to hide in, that could pose a problem.

 jy2 wrote:
It depends on the terrain really. I don't know what type of terrain you guys were playing on, but in a Nova-type tournament, there is usually some LOS-blocking type of terrain in the middle where he could hide his assault units, at least for a turn.

Your opponent's army is a beta-strike army. He needs to get his hammer units into position for a T2 assault. Then when his flyers come in on T2, he can strike with his entire army. Then again, if there was no terrain for him to hide in, that could pose a problem.

I played at the last 2 NOVAs and most of the boards you can't really BLoS to your Wraiths (I know because I used them last year), I also think some of the backlash against the size of some middle pieces will lead them to make slightly smaller middle pieces but retain at least 1 large piece in each deployment zone.

Things like Fleshhounds and Seekers or Terminators would definitely be able to hide, but i'm not so sure about MC sized models anymore. It is almost too good to be able to hide such large units behind a middle piece. Which is why i've been playing it mostly as BLoS to standard infantry. Armies like Nids become incredible if you can simply hide most of your MCs in the middle and not take fire.

I also think that sometimes it is better to hold off your assault units for the late game in order to use them to contest objectives or lend support where needed, but that is all based off of playstyle, from reading your stuff I certainly get the feeling you are a much more aggressive player than I. Hell, the majority of my games at NOVA last year my Wraith deathstar spent the games jockeying for position rather than moving upfield for charges (partially because despite their on paper durability, Wraiths can and will drop pretty quickly if opponents bring the proper amount of anti-infantry firepower).

I agree. I played my necrons at the Golden Throne GT and that tournament was very terrain-sparse. You do need to adjust your tactics depending on terrain. For example, if terrain doesn't block LOS, then consider a reflused flank formation where you units go towards to flanks to minimize return-enemy-fire. And yeah, the 2 deathstars is not a pure hammer unit like Draigowing or the Dark Harliestar. You do need to play them with some finesse and protect them. They have some resiliency, but will not survive if the enemy focuses on them. That's why I'd go with the D-lord in this type of list over Zandrehk. The D-lord just makes the wraithstar so much more resilient.

And the reason why I play more aggressively is a principle I call Positional Dominance. Basically, my philosophy is this - whoever can control the Movement phase in an objectives-based game has the advantage. In this case, if you can control the middle, then you are at the advantage. You won because you pressed forwards and controlled the middle whereas your opponent stayed back. In my game against Tomb King (battle report in this forum), my tyranids won because I advanced them to control the middle (granted, there was some luck involved in that game, but I had the advantage in positioning for the most part). If you can get the more favorable position (i.e. the objectives), then it is your opponent's game to lose. He has to dislodge you from the objectives while his is being threatened. And although you didn't have his objectives yet, you were advancing towards it and he had to play defensively. Your objectives were never seriously threatened at all. His were. The "assault" units - the wraiths and Khorne lord - doesn't really need to assault. Rather, they needed to advance and "threaten" your objectives. In any case, they would be fighting on your side of the board. If they win, they get to contesting range of your objectives and assault range of your squishier units. If they lose, then you still have to make the long trek to his objectives. By playing aggressively and establishing "advantageous" positions, it becomes your game to win and his (your opponent's) game to lose. Thus, you will have the advantage if you can control the Movement phase. If you let your opponent control it, then he has the advantage. In this game, you had the advantage by advancing and by him letting you.

Yeah, I mean, I fully understand the idea behind how you play. It just isn't in my nature to play quite as aggressively. I've always been a more defense minded individual in just about any sort of game I play, sports included.

It is definitely a viable way to win, obviously you and TK both proved that to be true and i've seen it worth for other individuals as well. I just prefer to react to my opponents moves.

Either way, I think the new Tau codex can do well vs Assault based infantry lists as they can really pack quite a bit of Str5-7 and thus lay down large amounts of wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think advancing is definitely a key and I also agree that the movement phase is the most important in the game, but it is very important to know when to advance and when to stay back. I think if my opponent had moved up the Wraiths/Spawn in a single turn i'd have really hurt him for it. What he should have done is moved the Wraiths earlier so that they could charge with the spawn. That was the big mistake. But his charge timing was actually pretty decent because it set up a nice late game move.