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copper.talos wrote:
So when the enemy kills a model and I remove that model from play I can still use its wargear? You are breaking the game a million ways if you accept that models out of play may use wargear.

But units in reserve have not been removed from play. They are in play, in reserves

@copper: Rigeld didn't say what you think he said. He made the point that models in reserve might not be "out of play." Being in reserve is, obviously, different than being dead.

I may have misunderstood his comment. My English sometimes fail me. In any case this should solve it: BRB pg 125 "Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn," which means while you are in reserves you are out of play.

sirlynchmob wrote:
But units in reserve have not been removed from play. They are in play, in reserves

So I can shoot with them on models that are on the board?
My flyers are going to love this!

@Kangodo: it's pretty obvious that you can't measure distances to things that are not on the board. Thus, any effects (including shooting) that need to check range can't affect things in Reserve. We already discussed this earlier in the thread.

@copper: That's a good catch.

BRB pg 125 "Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn," which means while you are in reserves you are out of play.

I'd like to see what other people make of this inference.

Kangodo wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
But units in reserve have not been removed from play. They are in play, in reserves

So I can shoot with them on models that are on the board?
My flyers are going to love this!

Sure, just remember to move them 18" while they're in reserves or they'll auto wreck.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
@Kangodo: it's pretty obvious that you can't measure distances to things that are not on the board. Thus, any effects (including shooting) that need to check range can't affect things in Reserve. We already discussed this earlier in the thread.

Why? I just put them right next to the board and they'll have range.

Or is it just as OBVIOUS as wargear not working when they aren't on the board?

This is more of discussion of if reserves counts as being "in play"

Neorealist wrote:

azazel the cat wrote: Then Please cite it.

ergo, if you want to use the Chrono to re-roll Lord of the Storm, the Cryptek must be on the table, and in the same unit as Imotekh. As Imotekh can never be in reserves whilst a Cryptek from the same unit is on the table, it is therefore impossible to re-roll Lord of the Storm while in reserve.

Certainly, I've done so In my prior post.

1) Can Imotekh use his ability while he is in reserves? (or elsewhere, but that is not relevant to this discussion). Answer - Yes, he just has to have been included in your army list
2) Can the Chrono-tek be used to re-roll The night fighting ability roll? Answer - Yes, as long as the Cryptek is in the same unit as Imotekh.
3) Is the Cryptek in the same unit as imotekh while they are in reserves together? Answer - Presumably, Yes

So there we have it: The Cryptek has permission to be used to re-roll night fighting from reserves.

Ah, I understand your reading now. But it's still wrong. Otherwise, you're saying that I can also use a Tachyon arrow from reserve.

What you are doing is conflating two very specific situations in hopes of creating a third, more general situtation:
1. The FAQ says that Imotekh can use Lord of the Storm from reserve.

2. The FAQ says that the Chrono can be used on Imotekh so long as they are in the same unit.

And you are assuming that point 2. implies the Chrono can re-roll for Imotekh's ability without still being subject to the normal game restrictions (of not doing stuff in reserve without specific permission to do so). You can't do that.

Goat wrote:Yes this is what has happened in a recent game for me, the opp wanted to reroll a lightning strike with chrono and Imotekh in reserve. I was fine with the strikes since the book says he just needs to be in the army. But, I wasn't sure the chrono could affect them whilst not on the table. He accepted my argument that wargear has to be on the table. But is it correct?

Yes, you can use the Chrono to re-roll the lightning strikes.
No, you cannot use the Chrono when it is in reserves, for the same reason you cannot use the Tachyon Arrow while in reserves.

It's like beating a dead horse...

The FAQ saying the Chrono can be used to reroll for Imhotek says nothing about it being used from reserve.

No other Wargear that I know of can be used from reserve unless stated in it's text or in an FAQ (Cryptek with a Shroud).

The Chrono in reserve is not in play. You cannot use abilities or Wargear while not in play unless it would specifically say so or else we would see people doing so regularly.

Thinking otherwise and ignoring any sense of logic seems like wishful thinking. Would any of you actually try and argue that you could while playing an opponent? It can't be that hard to just hide Imhotek/Chrono on the board somewhere out of LoS and in cover to achieve the same effect.

@azazel
Why can't you use the arrow?

Under shooting and who can shoot, two examples are listed that prevent models from firing. Reserves is not one of them.

It then clearly says when something prevents shooting it is "explained thoroughly when it occurs" Reserves says nothing about preventing shooting attacks.

there is no defined rules for what being in reserves means, you can make a solid RAW case for still moving, shooting and assaulting. While people might quibble about assaulting from reserves onto the table, what about the enemy units in reserve?

movement "in your turn you can move any of your units - all of them if you wish" no restrictions listed for being in reserve

see shooting above

You can assault as well as long as you're within 12"

Does being in reserve state anything about modifying the turn sequence for them? Nope. Any rules people state about what being in reserves means, wargear and special abilities are entirely house rules. The only restriction ever mentioned, are from when the reserved unit finally arrive from reserve.

sirlynchmob wrote:
@azazel
Why can't you use the arrow?
It then clearly says when something prevents shooting it is "explained thoroughly when it occurs" Reserves says nothing about preventing shooting attacks.

A unit in reserves is not in play. How can something fire if it isn't in play? Reserves doesn't mention that you cannot fire - true - but where you measure from? The unit is not in play to determine LoS/Ranges. Common sense > Explicity written rules in this situation.

'When
deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy
up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves
to arrive later.
BRB - Page 124

Not deployed - as in NOT IN PLAY. I don't really see what is so unclear about it other than it isn't explicitly written what they can or cannot do.

so where does being in reserves = not in play? pg # please.

I think the moment someone suggests models shooting out of reserves, he automatically loses all credibility and any further responses to him are just a waste of time.

U can't shoot from reserves because you cannot measure distances or draw LOS from model to model

If you can shoot from reserves, where are you drawing LOS from?

U cannot assault from reserves because you cannot assault when you come in from reserves and where would you be drawing LOS and measuring from? And also, couldn't the models you are assaultig overwatch also? Which leads into the whole shooting things that are ib reserves

EDIT: Forgot to insert quote it is from I think 4 posts ago

 A GumyBear wrote:
U can't shoot from reserves because you cannot measure distances or draw LOS from model to model

If you can shoot from reserves, where are you drawing LOS from?

U cannot assault from reserves because you cannot assault when you come in from reserves and where would you be drawing LOS and measuring from? And also, couldn't the models you are assaultig overwatch also? Which leads into the whole shooting things that are ib reserves

That may be your house rule, but that is not RAW.

Where is the model that you placed in reserves? you measure between the models, and check LOS from the models point of view.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
U can't shoot from reserves because you cannot measure distances or draw LOS from model to model

If you can shoot from reserves, where are you drawing LOS from?

U cannot assault from reserves because you cannot assault when you come in from reserves and where would you be drawing LOS and measuring from? And also, couldn't the models you are assaultig overwatch also? Which leads into the whole shooting things that are ib reserves

That may be your house rule, but that is not RAW.

Where is the model that you placed in reserves? you measure between the models, and check LOS from the models point of view.

So what you are saying is that I can just take my hammerhead put it in reserves then hold it behind a LRBT and have it fire away?

In what way does that work? U cannot draw LOS from something that is not on the board the same way that you can't move a piece in a game of candy land if it is not on the board

U cannot use pieces that are not on the board, the BRB even says that the game is played on a 6x4 board, not in wherever you want to put ur stuff

sirlynchmob wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
U can't shoot from reserves because you cannot measure distances or draw LOS from model to model

If you can shoot from reserves, where are you drawing LOS from?

U cannot assault from reserves because you cannot assault when you come in from reserves and where would you be drawing LOS and measuring from? And also, couldn't the models you are assaultig overwatch also? Which leads into the whole shooting things that are ib reserves

That may be your house rule, but that is not RAW.

Where is the model that you placed in reserves? you measure between the models, and check LOS from the models point of view.

You really are a fool. I posted it.

Page 124 under reserves it states that units in reserves are not deployed. You can fool around with words all you want but for most people the claim that it isn't deployed means you can't use it. You can't draw LoS because it isn't deployed. It isn't on the game board and thus you cannot see anything to fire with it.

"I'm just going to keep all my artillery in reserves and shoot you all game - it never explicitly says that they cannot fire!"

NOT.
DEPLOYED.

deployed past participle, past tense of de·ploy (Verb)
Verb

Move (troops) into position for military action.
(of troops) Move into position for such action.

DEEEEPLOOOOOYED. NOT READY FOR MILITARY ACTION IE: SHOOTING.

I've got a rule book, nothing you imply is written in it the way you think it is.

Budikah "but for most people the claim that it isn't deployed means you can't use it"

now if only you had a rule to back this up. clearly it is a house rule. Just because most people choose to play that way does not make it RAW.

Surely you can at least find a rule that says you are now in play once you arrive from reserves? But if as you say is true, then nothing would ever work from reserves. They're not in play, they might as well be at home right?

The rules for reserves stay you reenter play. You can only reenter if you were not in play to begin with

Please find permission to use something while not in play. Page and para

copper.talos wrote:
So when the enemy kills a model and I remove that model from play I can still use its wargear? You are breaking the game a million ways if you accept that models out of play may use wargear.

Very occasionally a piece of wargear continues an effect, but not generally the other way round. Example, necron wraith coils continue until the end of combat, even if the wraith is killed.

I don't agree that wargear can be used before it's deployed, but I can see the argument. For instance, the units in reserve are actually 'there', in that they need to be defined, can't change formation, can't lose / gain ICs, can take damage on a transport crash etc. They are definitely part of the game. I don't agree there should be a re-roll with chrono off the board. But there should be a better reason that just that they don't count.

Ffyllotek

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rules for reserves stay you reenter play. You can only reenter if you were not in play to begin with

Please find permission to use something while not in play. Page and para

That's ongoing reserves, and its odd that you enter into ongoing reserves. It never says you leave play and go into reserves.

Under deep strike, they begin the game in reserves. so they are actively in the game while in reserve. This way, any war gear that grants deep strike can function.

Strategic Genius, if your warlord is alive and in reserve he can reroll his reserve roll right? There are plenty of examples of things that work in reserve, now the trick is can you find anywhere that says any restrictions to wargear for being in reserve?

Because this is a valid point and is permitted:
"1) Can Imotekh use his ability while he is in reserves? (or elsewhere, but that is not relevant to this discussion). Answer - Yes, he just has to have been included in your army list
2) Can the Chrono-tek be used to re-roll The night fighting ability roll? Answer - Yes, as long as the Cryptek is in the same unit as Imotekh.
3) Is the Cryptek in the same unit as imotekh while they are in reserves together? Answer - Presumably, Yes "

No seriously, this has gotten dumb. I'm out.

azazel the cat wrote:What you are doing is conflating two very specific situations in hopes of creating a third, more general situtation:
1. The FAQ says that Imotekh can use Lord of the Storm from reserve.

2. The FAQ says that the Chrono can be used on Imotekh so long as they are in the same unit.

And you are assuming that point 2. implies the Chrono can re-roll for Imotekh's ability without still being subject to the normal game restrictions (of not doing stuff in reserve without specific permission to do so). You can't do that.

The FAQ includes the both of those concepts in the same sentence, the one which gives permission for them to function. It wasn't my choice of wording, nor a conflation of disparate concepts; it is their official ruling. No FAQ makes mention of the Tachyon Arrow (unlike the chrono-tek), so I'm not sure how you are equating one with the other.

Neither side has any strong evidence to support their claims it seems. There is no restriction on using wargear in reserves, but there is no allowance for it in a general sense either.
In short, this thread is gonna go in more circles than a dog that just found its tail.

Neo - no, it does not. It never mentions Reserves, ergo it cannot specifically allow you to use Chrono while in Reserves, because it never specifies "Reserves"

So again, permission to use wargear while not "In Play", as stated in the reserve rules

copper.talos wrote:
I think the moment someone suggests models shooting out of reserves, he automatically loses all credibility and any further responses to him are just a waste of time.

Ahum.. I suggested it.
It was sarcasm, because if you are allowed to use wargear (which you are according to some people) there is no restriction on shooting either

I don't want a pointless discussion about a Chronometron that obviously can't be used in Reserves.
And I love to see people proving me wrong about the shooting, therefore proving themselves wrong about the Chronometron.

I understood your sarcasm quite well. My post was about this

sirlynchmob wrote:
@azazel
Why can't you use the arrow?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Neo - no, it does not. It never mentions Reserves, ergo it cannot specifically allow you to use Chrono while in Reserves, because it never specifies "Reserves"

So again, permission to use wargear while not "In Play", as stated in the reserve rules

that is never stated in the reserve rules. That is a house rule, not RAW.

So you're saying imotekh can't use his bloodswarm nanoscarabs while in reserves?

Of course he can, you use wargear like you use special rules, when the gear/rule says you can use them, you can use them.

or if a piece of wargear grants deep strike, you put the unit in reserve because they have to begin the game in reserves, and they just never get to deep strike because it's granted from wargear?

There is plenty of wargear that functions in reserves just fine without explicit permission to do so. Furthermore there is some that would not function in it's intended purpose if it didn't work from reserves; such as wargear which allows a model to enter from reserves in a special way like outflanking or deepstriking.