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ItsPug wrote:
1)You roll for reserves at the start of the turn, "At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve" page 124, 2nd column, first paragraph, first sentence.

2) Then you move the units entering from reserve, "When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units and deploys it, moving on from the table as described below" page 124, 2nd column, fifth paragraph, first sentence.

3) Then you move other units. "The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal" page 124, 2nd column, fifth paragraph, first sentence.

Can you roll for your reserves, move a unit already on the board and then move your unit on from reserve? No. so clearly we do have steps.

GW state that blessings happen at the start of the movement phase, which as per the FAQ they state happen simultaneously with reserve rolls, which, so we're clear, would be step 1 in the list above.

So, according to this, is it agreed that blessings can only be cast in step 1, and therefore, cannot be cast upon units coming in from reserves? ItsPug lays it out it very cut and dry.

The point of contention is whether 1 and 2 are actually separate steps. We know that 1 includes several different things. Casting blessings and maledictions, reserve rolls, various powers and special abilities like Zandrkh's Counter Tactics & Adaptive Tactics, and Lorgan Grimnar's The High King, etc.

So there are a lot of things that happen or can happen at the start of the turn, and we know that logistically speaking they have to be resolved in a sequence, and GW has told us that the player whose turn it is gets to pick the sequence.

Now, we know that...

A) 40k doesn't have a separate "start of turn", "maintenence", "upkeep" or similar phase. The start of the turn and the start of the movement phase are the same thing.
B) Units arriving from Reserve have to do so in the movement phase, and have to do so before any other units move. Which can quite accurately be described as the start of the movement phase, as it's before all the normal moves and before actions which can be taken at any time during the movement phase (like using the Grimoire of True Names).
C) However, the Reserve rules don't specifically use the phrase "the start of the turn" or "the start of the movement phase" to describe when reserves move onto the table.

Looking at the Reserve rules again, I'm also noting a wording change from 5th ed. The Reserve rules used to say that after rolling, the units "immediately" arrive; which implied simultaneity a bit more strongly. That word's gone now though, so IMO that does take a bit less weight off the argument for saying that ItsPug's steps 1 and 2 are necessarily actually just 1 step.

So IMO that does leave it a bit ambiguous.

One other point, that again tends to lean me toward believing that 1 and 2 are actually one step, is the ruling for Logan Grimnar's The High King:

Q: Can Logan Grimnar benefit from his The High King special rule
the turn he arrives from reserves? And can Logan use The High King
special rule at the beginning of the opponent’s turn? (p56)
A: Yes and yes.

Now, for the answer to that first question to be Yes, it would seem that Logan's able to actually arrive from Reserve before using that Start of Turn power.

And yet again, how are you bringing a unit in from reserve without first passing its reserve roll? You can't. Just because they're simultaneous doesn't allow you to ignore the fact that you MUST pass the reserve roll to bring the unit on. Any argument from you otherwise is just nonsensical and doesn't support your claims at all

So once again, the start of the turn/Movement phase is anything that MUST occur before voluntary movement (as this is the only action that the rules for the Movement phase covers) and there is zero rules support for there being multiple 'steps' at the beginning of the turn/Movement phase.

Please provide actual RULES to back up your assertions instead of a nonsensical argument that because reserve rolls and moving reserves on are considered to happen simultaneously you get to ignore the requirement that you MUST pass a reserve roll to bring a unit on from reserve.

 Ghaz wrote:
And yet again, how are you bringing a unit in from reserve without first passing its reserve roll? You can't. Just because they're simultaneous doesn't allow you to ignore the fact that you MUST pass the reserve roll to bring the unit on. Any argument from you otherwise is just nonsensical and doesn't support your claims at all

If they are simultaneous as you believe then page 9 allows me to choose which happens first, the roll or the moving onto the board, if I have to do the roll first, then quite clearly they do not occur at the same time. You cannot have it both ways, reserves work correctly as the reserve roll (A) is seperate, and not simultaneous, to the action of moving on to the board (B), so you can only do B after completing A, if A and B occur at the same time and I can choose which to do first (as per page 9), I can choose to do B, and then A is irrelevant

I believe that A occurs before B, you state that they occur at the same time, but then require A to have been completed before B is possible, so they quite clearly cannot be occuring at the same time if A is prerequisite

Another example would be 2 eldar guardians falling back. as per the morale rules when I go to move the guardians I must pass a rally test, on double 1, if not I fall back. If before choosing to move the guardians I move an avatar to within 6" (so that they are now fearless) when I go to move them there is no longer a requirement for me to roll to rally the unit. Hence by choosing the order in which I carry out the operations I have avoided the leadership check.

Equally if rolling for reserves and moving them on were to occur simultaneously I can as per page 9 choose which to carry out first. Once the models are on to the board there is no requirement that I can see for me to pass a reserve roll. Perhaps you could point this paragraph out for me?

 Ghaz wrote:
So once again, the start of the turn/Movement phase is anything that MUST occur before voluntary movement (as this is the only action that the rules for the Movement phase covers) and there is zero rules support for there being multiple 'steps' at the beginning of the turn/Movement phase.

So there is "zero rules support" for when actions must be carried out in the movement phase, except where it actually states this action must be carried out at the start of the movement phase? In that case we have at least two steps to the movement phase, things which occur at the start of the movement phase, and then everything else which occurs during the movement phase.

The movement phase covers both voluntary and compulsory movement, and you may move your units in any order unless specifically told otherwise. It does not state that compulsory movement must occur at the start of the turn, because fall back moves happen when you move the unit, a locked velocity flyer can be the very last unit you move. Only things which specifically state "must happen at the start of the movement phase" happen at the start, everything else occurs during the movement phase, such as rallying/falling back. blessings and maledictions are one example of things which occur at the start, instinctive behaviour for tyranids is another, moving units on to the board does not state that it occurs at the start of the turn, only before you move other units which are already on the board. If you can point out the part of the paragraph that states this, or states that they move on immediately after passing the reserve roll (like it did in 5th) I'd be grateful.

 Ghaz wrote:

Please provide actual RULES to back up your assertions instead of a nonsensical argument that because reserve rolls and moving reserves on are considered to happen simultaneously you get to ignore the requirement that you MUST pass a reserve roll to bring a unit on from reserve.

Choosing which happens first doesn't allow you to ignore the requirements that you must pass a reserve roll to bring on reserves. All I see is still more nonsensical assumptions on your part and no actual rules to support them.

Certain units automatically arrive from reserve without a roll. As do all units on turn 4.

 Ghaz wrote:
Choosing which happens first doesn't allow you to ignore the requirements that you must pass a reserve roll to bring on reserves. All I see is still more nonsensical assumptions on your part and no actual rules to support them.

Show me where this magical statement is, give me a page and paragraph for the quote, that a unit MUST pass a reserve roll to enter the board, or concede the argument. You asked me for rules to backup my argument, I gave you page numbers and quotes, which you've ignored and called nonsensical assumptions. Now its your turn to provide a reference. As has already been pointed out, this "rule" you speak of does not exist, a variety of units are able to enter play from reserves without rolling.

You may have an easier time following the argument if you get out the rulebook and actually look at what is written and what is not, rather than going by what you think it says.

ItsPug, any thoughts in my analysis, or on the evidence of the Logan ruling?

Logans ability screws everything up, as its mentioned specifically in the book that special rules which must be used at the start of the turn cannot be used in the turn you enter from reserves, but then they FAQ'd it that Logan can. Unfortunately all we can draw from this is that sometimes GW do stupid things that break their own rules, because even if you do consider step 1 and 2 to be the same step, the bold bit on page 125 specifically states that he should not be able to use his High King rule when he enters from reserve.

The FAQ itself does not mean that steps 1 and 2 are simultaneous, just that Logan can effectively use something out of phase (being on step 2 but using a power that requires him to be at step 1) it does not address any other part of the argument, because its specific to logan himself. If they were to FAQ it to remove the bold bit on page 125, implying that other units can use start of turn powers when they enter from reserves (which would imply that when they enter it is still the start of the movement phase) then it'd be more ambiguous.

Ideally GW should have a start of turn phase which occurs before movement and includes rolling for reserves etc to make everything clear, so that there is a difference between start of turn and start of movement phase. But I think everyone would appreciate clearer rules from GW

 Mannahnin wrote:
ItsPug, any thoughts in my analysis, or on the evidence of the Logan ruling?

Logan's thing is just like the Baron's Hammer of Wrath.

He got a specific ruling that overrode the printed rules.

Try the first two paragraphs of the reserves rules where it clearly says that if you fail the reserves roll on turn one or two then the unit remains in reserve. Being simultaneous does not remove this restriction. If you decide to move the units in from reserve before you make the reserves roll does not mean you don't have to make the roll. What it means is if you don't suceed in your roll, all you've done is wasted your time as you have to pick the models up off the table because they're still in reserve.

Yes but the point is you only roll for units still in reserve, so if, as you believe, they happen simultaneously then I can as per page 9 choose which happens first. I choose to move the unit on before rolling, once they are on the table they are no longer in reserve, so the roll is no longer required.

The same as in the example of the 2 guardians and the avatar, at the start of the turn they are broken and a leadership test is required to rally the unit when they move, but if I choose to make them fearless before moving the unit, then the leadership test is no longer required.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The point of contention is whether 1 and 2 are actually separate steps. We know that 1 includes several different things. Casting blessings and maledictions, reserve rolls, various powers and special abilities like Zandrkh's Counter Tactics & Adaptive Tactics, and Lorgan Grimnar's The High King, etc.

So there are a lot of things that happen or can happen at the start of the turn, and we know that logistically speaking they have to be resolved in a sequence, and GW has told us that the player whose turn it is gets to pick the sequence.

Now, we know that...

A) 40k doesn't have a separate "start of turn", "maintenence", "upkeep" or similar phase. The start of the turn and the start of the movement phase are the same thing.
B) Units arriving from Reserve have to do so in the movement phase, and have to do so before any other units move. Which can quite accurately be described as the start of the movement phase, as it's before all the normal moves and before actions which can be taken at any time during the movement phase (like using the Grimoire of True Names).
C) However, the Reserve rules don't specifically use the phrase "the start of the turn" or "the start of the movement phase" to describe when reserves move onto the table.

Looking at the Reserve rules again, I'm also noting a wording change from 5th ed. The Reserve rules used to say that after rolling, the units "immediately" arrive; which implied simultaneity a bit more strongly. That word's gone now though, so IMO that does take a bit less weight off the argument for saying that ItsPug's steps 1 and 2 are necessarily actually just 1 step.

So IMO that does leave it a bit ambiguous.

One other point, that again tends to lean me toward believing that 1 and 2 are actually one step, is the ruling for Logan Grimnar's The High King:

Q: Can Logan Grimnar benefit from his The High King special rule
the turn he arrives from reserves? And can Logan use The High King
special rule at the beginning of the opponent’s turn? (p56)
A: Yes and yes.

Now, for the answer to that first question to be Yes, it would seem that Logan's able to actually arrive from Reserve before using that Start of Turn power.

Well I agree with a couple exceptions. I feel that because the reserve rules give us a process beginning at the start of the the movement phase and not indicating a shift in progress through that phase until after the whole thing is complete does indicate that it all happens at the same stage of the movement phase, IE the start of the phase. Due to that I feel that we are not given permission to proceed past the 'start of turn' stage of things until we are told we can 'move as normal' at which point the reserve rules governing our reserve unit deployments and holding up the usual progression of the phase come to an end.

No matter how many arbitrary steps on may want to break the reserve process down into there is no changing that these rules pause us at the start of the phase while we roll for reserves and the rules do not permit progress of the phase until after they are all done.

My only problem is that per the FAQ Blessings/Maledictions are done simultaneously with Outflank rolls, which are not rolled for until the unit arrives from Reserves.

 Happyjew wrote:
My only problem is that per the FAQ Blessings/Maledictions are done simultaneously with Outflank rolls, which are not rolled for until the unit arrives from Reserves.

Then the FaQ would have said reserve rolls and movement, the fact it says reserve rolls are done at the same time to me rolls is just that, rolling a dice not moving your units on. I would not accept nor play it as I can cast start of turn psyhic powers on a unit coming in from reserves.

"When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal." Page 124 BRB

Technically any movement by a unit while coming in from reserve is in fact part of a deployment and not a normal move so I don't see how it's evidence that the 'start of the turn' has passed. This is part of the process we are told to do at the start of the turn and I don't see any permission to proceed further into the turn/phase sequence until it is completed.

And this:
"At the start of your Turn Three, roll for any units remaining in reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in reserve and automatically arrives at the start of Turn Four." Page 124 BRB (Emphasis mine)

Unless you believe for any particular reason reserve units in turns two and three would arrive at a different time in the turn than the ones arriving in turn four... they arrive at the start of the turn.... and no, choosing the order of things that happen at the same time does not allow you to declare you are moving them in before you roll for reserve. The unit moving in happens as a result of that roll so one necessarily comes before the other but both occur at the 'start of the turn'.

Then why the disticiation that units coming from reserve cannot use start of turn abilites as you say they are deployed on the board start of movement phase?, your post does not address the FAQ mentioning reserve rolls which as per BRB is done start of turn.

MarkyMark wrote:
Then why the disticiation that units coming from reserve cannot use start of turn abilites as you say they are deployed on the board start of movement phase?, your post does not address the FAQ mentioning reserve rolls which as per BRB is done start of turn.

The FAQ was made to clarify how Scrier's Gaze can affect reserve rolls.
The rule in the rulebook makes sure that units coming from reserve still cannot use start of turn abilities.

 Abandon wrote:

Technically any movement by a unit while coming in from reserve is in fact part of a deployment and not a normal move
so I don't see how it's evidence that the 'start of the turn' has passed.

Do you roll for difficult terrain when deploying a unit? No. you are told to move the model onto the board, not deploy it.

"Each models move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved on as normal"

 Abandon wrote:
This is part of the process we are told to do at the start of the turn and I don't see any permission to proceed further into the turn/phase sequence until it is completed.

It is GW that make the distinction between reserve rolls and moving on from reserves. At the time of the rolls a player can choose to use blessings and maledictions (start of turn abilities) but when moving the units on to the board they cannot.

 Abandon wrote:
And this:
"At the start of your Turn Three, roll for any units remaining in reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in reserve and automatically arrives at the start of Turn Four." Page 124 BRB (Emphasis mine)

Unless you believe for any particular reason reserve units in turns two and three would arrive at a different time in the turn than the ones arriving in turn four... they arrive at the start of the turn....

I think you're missing the point, rolling for reserves and when you place the first model "just off the board" it is the start of the turn and the unit is arriving, once it has "moved as normal" it is no longer the start of the turn. All reserve units arriving this turn, arrive at the same time, so imagine them all placed against the board edge, this is still the start of the turn. Now because a person only has two hands they must now move the units on one at a time (which counts as simultaneously) once the model(s) have been moved on you are free to move other models, but that does not mean that moving the reserve units on occured at the start of the turn.

If that were the case if you had two units entering from reserve, a librarian in a tactical squad and a scout squad for example, you could move the tactical squad on first and then make the argument that as you had not finished moving reserve units onto the board that it was still the start of the turn and you could cast blessings etc. GW tell us speicifcally that a unit entering from reserve cannot use start of turn abilities, the only reason that this could make sense is that by the time the model has actually moved onto the board it is no longer the start of the turn.

 Abandon wrote:

and no, choosing the order of things that happen at the same time does not allow you to declare you are moving them in before you roll for reserve. The unit moving in happens as a result of that roll so one necessarily comes before the other but both occur at the 'start of the turn'.

Can you provide me with a rules to state this? As I've pointed out numerous times, if the two things (moving on from reserves and rolling for reserves) happen simultaneously I can choose which occurs first as per page 9 and then there is no rule requiring a reserve roll for a unit already on the table. If one thing happens after another then they are not simultaneous. If they are not simultaneous, and one thing specifically happens at the start of the turn, than the other must happen after the start of the turn. They cannot happen "simultaneously, but one after the other" If I shot a meltagun armed tactical squad at your chimera full of IG, would you allow me to say "shooting is simultaneous, but i'll fire the meltagun first and if that kills the tank I'll shoot the bolters at the IG after?" No I don't think so.

You're contradicting yourself. Nothing you've provided says that bringing units in from reserve must be the last thing you do at the beginning of the turn/Movement phase. You can bring on all of the units from reserve and then cast your beginning of the turn/Movement phase psychic powers as the FAQ clearly permits.

So if i can bring in a unit (say a librarian) and it is still the start of the turn, why would they say that you can not use start of turn powers?

There is no contradiction.

!)All units are rolled for at the start of the turn and those that pass now count as arriving. Blessings and maledictions etc are done at this point, either before or after reserve rolls.

2)Now the units enter play as a normal move

3)Now you can move the remainder of your units

I cant make it any clearer than that. The FAQ does not say what you seem to think it says. It states that blessings etc happen simultaneously with reserve rolls, and so can be done either before or after the reserve rolls, if it did not mention reserve rolls and merely mentioned reserves, then you might have enough ambiguity to argue your position.

As the FAQ mentions nothing about whether a unit arriving from reserve can be the recepient of a benefit caused by a start of turn special rule I dont see how you can argue it "clearly permits" such an action. I might as well argue that it "clearly permits" that if if my unit has counter attack and rage I get +2 attacks when charged, because obviously we're ignoring what it says and reading whatever we want it to say

ItsPug wrote:
So if i can bring in a unit (say a librarian) and it is still the start of the turn, why would they say that you can not use start of turn powers?

There is no contradiction.

!)All units are rolled for at the start of the turn and those that pass now count as arriving. Blessings and maledictions etc are done at this point, either before or after reserve rolls.

2)Now the units enter play as a normal move

3)Now you can move the remainder of your units

I cant make it any clearer than that. The FAQ does not say what you seem to think it says. It states that blessings etc happen simultaneously with reserve rolls, and so can be done either before or after the reserve rolls, if it did not mention reserve rolls and merely mentioned reserves, then you might have enough ambiguity to argue your position.

As the FAQ mentions nothing about whether a unit arriving from reserve can be the recepient of a benefit caused by a start of turn special rule I dont see how you can argue it "clearly permits" such an action. I might as well argue that it "clearly permits" that if if my unit has counter attack and rage I get +2 attacks when charged, because obviously we're ignoring what it says and reading whatever we want it to say

!. Blessing and maledictions can be done at this point or after your units arrive as they also arrive at the start of the turn.

2. This is not a normal move, normal moves do not start off the battlefield. Just because it tells you to 'move as normal' does not make it such. It's a deployment:
"When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table."

3. Unless you have any other 'start of turn' abilities/effects to deal with.

Reserve units arrive at the start of turn four. It does not say to 'put them in a state of arriving', it says they arrive at the start of the turn. What makes you think turns two and three are different?