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Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Are you under the impression that there must be a need for anything we post?
If you feel like picking that nit, there are rules against spam here; a needless post - especially from the point of that very post's author - would easily be seen as such.

Similar to how the preface "I don't mean to be rude, but. . ." does not give any extra allowance or forgiveness for the rudeness that inevitably follows.

The actual intent and thought of that part of this thread was rather thoroughly covered though, if you missed it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/02 13:22:39


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





"Needless to say" does not mean that there is no need to say so, it's a way to express that to you, a given fact is needless to say but you want other to know that it is.

Anyway, we already moved on

   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan




In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

 Sigvatr wrote:

Anyway, we already moved on

And moved on we shall stay!

From what I've been hearing, the way the standard Core selection is going is that we'll probably all be shelving that massive unit of spears we have. People are talking about a Silverhelm Bus and/or Archers as their Core. Archers have, apparently, got significantly cheaper and ranged attacks, I hear, also benefit from Martial Prowess - so a 3x10 unit of Archers will be able to fire a full 30 shots. I think Ellyrian Reavers will be used a lot more as well.

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9th Age Fantasy Rules

 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





I don't think that shelving the Spears would be necessary - they can be a very effective unit with some buffing. If the rumors about Teclis bear truth, you might make him an insane buff-machine if you choose the buff spells from the different lores (I am still confused here, some state that he can *pick* 1 spell from each lore, some say he can *roll* for 1 spell per lore). Sure, they got weak stats, but you'll still pump out attacks from 4 ranks or even 5 and iirc, they even got a points drop and they keep their ASF.

Good points about the archers, I'm looking forward to seeing how good they really are. Shooting in WHFB has always been on the weak side of things but the new archers might make it viable.

I wouldn't write them off so soon, we might see some interesting combos....and let's not forget, it's Mat Ward. Anything could happen! Maybe they get Killing Blow!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/02 18:41:23


   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 Sigvatr wrote:
I don't think that shelving the Spears would be necessary - they can be a very effective unit with some buffing. If the rumors about Teclis bear truth, you might make him an insane buff-machine if you choose the buff spells from the different lores (I am still confused here, some state that he can *pick* 1 spell from each lore, some say he can *roll* for 1 spell per lore). Sure, they got weak stats, but you'll still pump out attacks from 4 ranks or even 5 and iirc, they even got a points drop and they keep their ASF.


I've heard more people saying it's "pick 1 spell per BRB Lore," making Teclis the new king of support in Fantasy.
Teclis buffing the crap out of a Spearhorde with a High Magic support caster could become pretty fearsome when you take into account the new High Magic lore attribute... Spend the first turn or two getting into position and having the High Magic caster build-up the ward save, then next turn have the 'Big T' take over and slap some buffs on them.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Good points about the archers, I'm looking forward to seeing how good they really are. Shooting in WHFB has always been on the weak side of things but the new archers might make it viable.

I wouldn't write them off so soon, we might see some interesting combos....and let's not forget, it's Mat Ward. Anything could happen! Maybe they get Killing Blow!


Well, the Everqueen gets Heroic Killing Blow vs all models from the Forces of Disorder... (imagine Alarielle poking a Bloodthirster in the eye and insta-gibbing him... or how about Archaon?! )

 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

 The Shadow wrote:

Archers have, apparently, got significantly cheaper and ranged attacks, I hear, also benefit from Martial Prowess - so a 3x10 unit of Archers will be able to fire a full 30 shots. I think Ellyrian Reavers will be used a lot more as well.


It's funny that 30 shots is totally worth taking but 25 shots is garbage.
If those archers come in at 9 points each, we may see a lot of them.

Archers to kill rank and file, phoenix to thin down buses, and lore of metal to kill armor. Makes a well rounded elf gunline.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





Experiment 626 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
I don't think that shelving the Spears would be necessary - they can be a very effective unit with some buffing. If the rumors about Teclis bear truth, you might make him an insane buff-machine if you choose the buff spells from the different lores (I am still confused here, some state that he can *pick* 1 spell from each lore, some say he can *roll* for 1 spell per lore). Sure, they got weak stats, but you'll still pump out attacks from 4 ranks or even 5 and iirc, they even got a points drop and they keep their ASF.


I've heard more people saying it's "pick 1 spell per BRB Lore," making Teclis the new king of support in Fantasy.
Teclis buffing the crap out of a Spearhorde with a High Magic support caster could become pretty fearsome when you take into account the new High Magic lore attribute... Spend the first turn or two getting into position and having the High Magic caster build-up the ward save, then next turn have the 'Big T' take over and slap some buffs on them.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Good points about the archers, I'm looking forward to seeing how good they really are. Shooting in WHFB has always been on the weak side of things but the new archers might make it viable.

I wouldn't write them off so soon, we might see some interesting combos....and let's not forget, it's Mat Ward. Anything could happen! Maybe they get Killing Blow!


Well, the Everqueen gets Heroic Killing Blow vs all models from the Forces of Disorder... (imagine Alarielle poking a Bloodthirster in the eye and insta-gibbing him... or how about Archaon?! )


Doesn't archaon have a rule that Killing Blow and HBKB don't work on him or is that the old book?

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Stubborn Hammerer





 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
I don't think that shelving the Spears would be necessary - they can be a very effective unit with some buffing. If the rumors about Teclis bear truth, you might make him an insane buff-machine if you choose the buff spells from the different lores (I am still confused here, some state that he can *pick* 1 spell from each lore, some say he can *roll* for 1 spell per lore). Sure, they got weak stats, but you'll still pump out attacks from 4 ranks or even 5 and iirc, they even got a points drop and they keep their ASF.


I've heard more people saying it's "pick 1 spell per BRB Lore," making Teclis the new king of support in Fantasy.
Teclis buffing the crap out of a Spearhorde with a High Magic support caster could become pretty fearsome when you take into account the new High Magic lore attribute... Spend the first turn or two getting into position and having the High Magic caster build-up the ward save, then next turn have the 'Big T' take over and slap some buffs on them.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Good points about the archers, I'm looking forward to seeing how good they really are. Shooting in WHFB has always been on the weak side of things but the new archers might make it viable.

I wouldn't write them off so soon, we might see some interesting combos....and let's not forget, it's Mat Ward. Anything could happen! Maybe they get Killing Blow!


Well, the Everqueen gets Heroic Killing Blow vs all models from the Forces of Disorder... (imagine Alarielle poking a Bloodthirster in the eye and insta-gibbing him... or how about Archaon?! )


Doesn't archaon have a rule that Killing Blow and HBKB don't work on him or is that the old book?


I wouldn't read to much in to it. I think we was just giving some random examples.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Experiment 626 wrote:

I've heard more people saying it's "pick 1 spell per BRB Lore," making Teclis the new king of support in Fantasy.
Teclis buffing the crap out of a Spearhorde with a High Magic support caster could become pretty fearsome when you take into account the new High Magic lore attribute... Spend the first turn or two getting into position and having the High Magic caster build-up the ward save, then next turn have the 'Big T' take over and slap some buffs on them.


I do hope you're right. Else Teclis went from completely broken to...completely broken -____-

   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan




In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

HawaiiMatt wrote:
 The Shadow wrote:

Archers have, apparently, got significantly cheaper and ranged attacks, I hear, also benefit from Martial Prowess - so a 3x10 unit of Archers will be able to fire a full 30 shots. I think Ellyrian Reavers will be used a lot more as well.


It's funny that 30 shots is totally worth taking but 25 shots is garbage.
If those archers come in at 9 points each, we may see a lot of them.

Archers to kill rank and file, phoenix to thin down buses, and lore of metal to kill armor. Makes a well rounded elf gunline.

-Matt

Good point, but that was really to demonstrate the mechanics of the rule. They can move and fire those 30 shots as well though. I personally don't really like the idea of a HE gunline, but I guess we'll see just how effective all the core choices are...

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Crazed Savage Orc





Germany

 Sigvatr wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:

I've heard more people saying it's "pick 1 spell per BRB Lore," making Teclis the new king of support in Fantasy.
Teclis buffing the crap out of a Spearhorde with a High Magic support caster could become pretty fearsome when you take into account the new High Magic lore attribute... Spend the first turn or two getting into position and having the High Magic caster build-up the ward save, then next turn have the 'Big T' take over and slap some buffs on them.


I do hope you're right. Else Teclis went from completely broken to...completely broken -____-


Kairos is able to choose 8 spells from all lores plus knowing all from lore of Tzeentch. I guess Teclis will be similar and not be able to be "Loremaster" of all 8 lores plus HE lore. He might even has to roll for his spells. But Kairos is close to 600pts and cant hide in some core infantry. Well, we will see but I dont believe Mat will break the HE book that hardcore. The new DoC book is pretty ok I´d say and he wrote that too.

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Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
I don't think that shelving the Spears would be necessary - they can be a very effective unit with some buffing. If the rumors about Teclis bear truth, you might make him an insane buff-machine if you choose the buff spells from the different lores (I am still confused here, some state that he can *pick* 1 spell from each lore, some say he can *roll* for 1 spell per lore). Sure, they got weak stats, but you'll still pump out attacks from 4 ranks or even 5 and iirc, they even got a points drop and they keep their ASF.


I've heard more people saying it's "pick 1 spell per BRB Lore," making Teclis the new king of support in Fantasy.
Teclis buffing the crap out of a Spearhorde with a High Magic support caster could become pretty fearsome when you take into account the new High Magic lore attribute... Spend the first turn or two getting into position and having the High Magic caster build-up the ward save, then next turn have the 'Big T' take over and slap some buffs on them.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Good points about the archers, I'm looking forward to seeing how good they really are. Shooting in WHFB has always been on the weak side of things but the new archers might make it viable.

I wouldn't write them off so soon, we might see some interesting combos....and let's not forget, it's Mat Ward. Anything could happen! Maybe they get Killing Blow!


Well, the Everqueen gets Heroic Killing Blow vs all models from the Forces of Disorder... (imagine Alarielle poking a Bloodthirster in the eye and insta-gibbing him... or how about Archaon?! )


Doesn't archaon have a rule that Killing Blow and HBKB don't work on him or is that the old book?


No, he has a 3+ ward save & his mount makes him a Monstrous Beast. (so no regular Killing Blow, but the Everqueen's eye-poke of doom can lead to epic halarity!)


@Gorbad: So invalidating the entire Daemons of Chaos book isn't enough shinanigans?!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/02 23:26:04


 
   
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Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight



Edinburgh, Scotland

Really hoping that all these bonus against Forces of Destruction turn out to be nonsense. After all, HE already have fear against OnG, bojuses against DE and a banner of immune to DoC. Why on earth would they need more?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless ofc, there is an army wide rule that Forces of Destruction get AP against HE.... that would balance a lot

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/03 00:00:56


Nite 
   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc





Germany

Experiment 626 wrote:
 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
I don't think that shelving the Spears would be necessary - they can be a very effective unit with some buffing. If the rumors about Teclis bear truth, you might make him an insane buff-machine if you choose the buff spells from the different lores (I am still confused here, some state that he can *pick* 1 spell from each lore, some say he can *roll* for 1 spell per lore). Sure, they got weak stats, but you'll still pump out attacks from 4 ranks or even 5 and iirc, they even got a points drop and they keep their ASF.


I've heard more people saying it's "pick 1 spell per BRB Lore," making Teclis the new king of support in Fantasy.
Teclis buffing the crap out of a Spearhorde with a High Magic support caster could become pretty fearsome when you take into account the new High Magic lore attribute... Spend the first turn or two getting into position and having the High Magic caster build-up the ward save, then next turn have the 'Big T' take over and slap some buffs on them.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Good points about the archers, I'm looking forward to seeing how good they really are. Shooting in WHFB has always been on the weak side of things but the new archers might make it viable.

I wouldn't write them off so soon, we might see some interesting combos....and let's not forget, it's Mat Ward. Anything could happen! Maybe they get Killing Blow!


Well, the Everqueen gets Heroic Killing Blow vs all models from the Forces of Disorder... (imagine Alarielle poking a Bloodthirster in the eye and insta-gibbing him... or how about Archaon?! )


Doesn't archaon have a rule that Killing Blow and HBKB don't work on him or is that the old book?


No, he has a 3+ ward save & his mount makes him a Monstrous Beast. (so no regular Killing Blow, but the Everqueen's eye-poke of doom can lead to epic halarity!)


@Gorbad: So invalidating the entire Daemons of Chaos book isn't enough shinanigans?!


Well, if the rumours about that banner are correct I will cry a lot for sure. But I cant believe that banner will exist. I mean, it will doom DoC but not just DoC and even if Mat made some really bad books it seems he "learned" a bit. So I hope it wont be that crazy with the new HE book. DoC had a broken book, soon after a new one came and that´s not broken. Some crazy stuff in it but all in all it´s pretty chaotic with tons of random effects/rules. So yes, I am pretty sure the HE book wont cripple Warhammer again. I still have nightmares from the "pre step up rule" era combined with HE ASF when I was forced to play Empire gunline pretty much every game.

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In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

Niteware wrote:
Really hoping that all these bonus against Forces of Destruction turn out to be nonsense. After all, HE already have fear against OnG, bojuses against DE and a banner of immune to DoC. Why on earth would they need more?

DE have bonuses against HE as well and Fear Elves only applies to Goblins and there's a whole thread in General Discussion in which, amidst the cries of lament, you should be able to find reasons why the Banner of The World Dragon is not that bad. There's a few bonuses here and there, but it's nothing game breaking.

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I hope we have our friends in Europe post quickly the new changes. I'm just impatient lol.
   
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Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 The Shadow wrote:
Niteware wrote:
Really hoping that all these bonus against Forces of Destruction turn out to be nonsense. After all, HE already have fear against OnG, bojuses against DE and a banner of immune to DoC. Why on earth would they need more?

DE have bonuses against HE as well and Fear Elves only applies to Goblins and there's a whole thread in General Discussion in which, amidst the cries of lament, you should be able to find reasons why the Banner of The World Dragon is not that bad. There's a few bonuses here and there, but it's nothing game breaking.


Yeah, because telling every single Daemon player to go screw themselves and just buy a brand new army isn't too much of an issue...

Harlariously enough, my other Fantasy armies are VC's, Skaven and... High Elves!!!
So I can shelve three and join in the fun with the one that killed my other three. Ironic, or just bad luck?!

 
   
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Incubus





New York City

Tagony wrote:
I hope we have our friends in Europe post quickly the new changes. I'm just impatient lol.


They usually do but, rarely do vomit it out onto Dakka

   
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Experiment 626 wrote:
 The Shadow wrote:
Niteware wrote:
Really hoping that all these bonus against Forces of Destruction turn out to be nonsense. After all, HE already have fear against OnG, bojuses against DE and a banner of immune to DoC. Why on earth would they need more?

DE have bonuses against HE as well and Fear Elves only applies to Goblins and there's a whole thread in General Discussion in which, amidst the cries of lament, you should be able to find reasons why the Banner of The World Dragon is not that bad. There's a few bonuses here and there, but it's nothing game breaking.


Yeah, because telling every single Daemon player to go screw themselves and just buy a brand new army isn't too much of an issue...


The same way that no one won any tournaments with the old 40k Daemons Codex because a tailored Grey Knight list could completely destroy them before they got to deploy?

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To be fair, GK are an entire army designed to ruin the game for DoC whereas we are talking about 1 magic banner here.

   
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Agile Revenant Titan




In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

 Sigvatr wrote:
To be fair, GK are an entire army designed to ruin the game for DoC whereas we are talking about 1 magic banner here.

EXACTLY.

If the entire High Elf army got a 2+ Ward against Magical Attacks, I wouldn't class it as fair, and nor would I class it as "a few bonuses here and there". I've explained this innumerable times:

Chances are your HE opponent will take this banner. If he takes it on a massive unit then you, as a Daemon Player, avoid it as best as you can. Chuck chaff at it, redirect it, manoeuver around its sizeable bulk. If you haven't learned to death with deathstars this edition, then you've got a real problem. If your opponent takes it on a small unit, then you also try to avoid it but, although it would be harder, this is a smaller portion that's immune to your attacks.

Some people, especially you Experiment 626, really need to chill out about this banner.

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Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 The Shadow wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
To be fair, GK are an entire army designed to ruin the game for DoC whereas we are talking about 1 magic banner here.

EXACTLY.

If the entire High Elf army got a 2+ Ward against Magical Attacks, I wouldn't class it as fair, and nor would I class it as "a few bonuses here and there". I've explained this innumerable times:

Chances are your HE opponent will take this banner. If he takes it on a massive unit then you, as a Daemon Player, avoid it as best as you can. Chuck chaff at it, redirect it, manoeuver around its sizeable bulk. If you haven't learned to death with deathstars this edition, then you've got a real problem. If your opponent takes it on a small unit, then you also try to avoid it but, although it would be harder, this is a smaller portion that's immune to your attacks.

Some people, especially you Experiment 626, really need to chill out about this banner.


What what about non-tourny games, you know, the bulk of Fantasy games in general? Things like;
- Leagues where you know your opponent ahead of time
- Campaigns where you also know your opponent ahead of time
- Regular games where you show up and make your list at the store

What's to stop a High Elf player at this point, (or even in a tournament), from simply shoving all their characters into the Skill banner unit and thus deny a Daemon or Wood Elf opponent 50% or more of their army? (god forbid you face a list with 75% of their pts safely squirrled away under the banner...)

Chaff it? I love this suggestion. Please feel free to point me towards the supposed "chaff" in the new Daemons book, because our cheapest troop is still 11pts a pop. Beasts cost more than the damn banner itself. Furies no longer skirmish and thus are more vulnerable to being shot to bits. Daemonic Instability means we can't tarpit worth jack, especially against an elite High Elf unit that now benefits from an additional rank of attacks...
Plus, you keep seeming to ignore the fact that "just feed it chaff" is simply handing the HE player VP's. If the High Elf player has 1000pts locked away safe and sound from the Daemon player, and I have to then feed it at least 250+ odd pts, (and more likely I'll be forced to feed it upwards of 300-400pts because Daemons aren't cheap), then how am I supposed to go about killing the other 1000pts I can actually hurt without giving up more than another 600pts while doing so?

And again, you along with everyone else who simply answer, "herp-durp re-direct it/move around it" seem to convienantly forget that High Elves have also been handed an easy loophole to completely avoid those tactics with Walk Between Worlds. (20" ethereal move) So even after clogging the unit's movement lanes up and boxing them in, they can simply breeze right through your blockers and hit what they want anyways...
Yes, it's not 100% garantee they get it off/it doesn't get dispelled every turn, but against Daemons esepcially, it's a helluva lot easier since we need to spend 500+ pts for a Lv4 wizard to counter the likelyhood of the HE player rolling their spells at a +3 or +5 to-cast bonus.

If you can't understand why this banner is horrific for the game and how completely invalidating an entire army is stupid, then I weep for the future of Boringhammer where we boil the game down to pts denial & #6 spells ftw...

 
   
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Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

Experiment 626 wrote:
What what about non-tourny games, you know, the bulk of Fantasy games in general? Things like;
- Leagues where you know your opponent ahead of time
- Campaigns where you also know your opponent ahead of time
- Regular games where you show up and make your list at the store
Those are pretty much the three examples I would use as the least likely to see things generally regarded as cheese - at least without knowing beforehand it is possible.

Sure, I actually am building my TK army around Khalida (literally and thematically) but would I ever show up at random games only bringing power lists that include her?

No.

If I did, would I expect anyone besides someone who also brings such a list to play me (more than once, assuming I don't tell them first)?
No.

All of those situations you should actually discuss the game you are wanting to play with your opponent.
A tourney is one of the few times that you have little to no say.

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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I'm just hoping some of the stuff (BotWD) doesn't get banned straight off the bat. I actually want to use some of the cool items this time.
   
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 Sigvatr wrote:
To be fair, GK are an entire army designed to ruin the game for DoC whereas we are talking about 1 magic banner here.


And said GK army was NOT a good all comer list. It would fail against most other armies meaning it was a poor competitive choice.

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Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 kirsanth wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
What what about non-tourny games, you know, the bulk of Fantasy games in general? Things like;
- Leagues where you know your opponent ahead of time
- Campaigns where you also know your opponent ahead of time
- Regular games where you show up and make your list at the store
Those are pretty much the three examples I would use as the least likely to see things generally regarded as cheese - at least without knowing beforehand it is possible.

Sure, I actually am building my TK army around Khalida (literally and thematically) but would I ever show up at random games only bringing power lists that include her?

No.

If I did, would I expect anyone besides someone who also brings such a list to play me (more than once, assuming I don't tell them first)?
No.

All of those situations you should actually discuss the game you are wanting to play with your opponent.
A tourney is one of the few times that you have little to no say.


Except that most Leagues/Campaigns offer prizes for finishing in the top spots, meaning people will always bring whatever gives them 'an edge' because when all is said and done, we all like winning free expensive plastic crack at the end of the day...

 
   
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Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

Sure, and people know going in what is allowed and what is not.
If you have such issues, do not participate in a league that uses rules you find offensive.

As for campaigns. . .I think we are discussing different things. Every campaign I have been involved with has been narrative. Many times we have added layers of cheese where none exists, and every time everyone has agreed upon the "extra" rules.

There is a difference between having an edge and being a jerk. It sounds like you either play with or are afraid you will play with jerks.

I find your follow up to be more akin related to variations on a tournament, rather than examples of "the bulk of Fantasy games in general", actually.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/05/03 23:02:07


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Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

Well, I got a look at the new book today. It seems like a good book that will allow a ton of different themes and playstyles. I can't speak to it's power level but reavers and silver helms as core just sounds fun to try out

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc





Germany

The Banner can be confirmed .... I cant believe he did that! Well, time to get around HE with my new DoC army ...

Boss, Raglun´z mob ´az redda trouserz dan uz!
Too bad, da mob got stinky about ...
Dakka Gallery 
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 Gorbad wrote:
The Banner can be confirmed .... I cant believe he did that! Well, time to get around HE with my new DoC army ...


Most important question of all:
The new High Magic lore attribute... Is it just +1 ward save until the begining of the next magic phase, or is it like the new Warpflame rule's regen and just a perma +1 ward save for the rest of the game?

If it's the latter... Hello Alarielle SkillBannerstars of dooooooom!

 
   
 
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