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 Tangent wrote:
Good points. But I mean, does anyone run vampires without magic weapons? I know I don't.

As for the Coven Throne, why does it do well against Elves? They have high leadership against Battle of Wills, and aren't the attacks of the spirit horde magical (and so are screwed by the banner)?

I've been running no magic weapon vampire for awhile. Why? Because the Tricksters helm and Talisman of Preservation take up 95 of my 100 points, and I'd rather have a lance than a 5 point magic weapon.
The only thing that I'd want magic against is ethereals. What's ethereal these days? Slaan, and other vampire armies.
I have more than enough static combat res to kill enemy ethereals.

The throne does well against elves, because you can use inspiring presence and Aura of Dark Majesty.
That means that I'm leadership 10, and you're -1 leadership. Since it looks like most high elf armies are not including an Ld10 character, and most are sticking the Ld9 general in a unit with the Banner of of the Broken Dragon, you're inspiring presence is 9 (no banner of discipline). I'm starting the contest up by 2. This makes it work better here than vs say, Orcs, who tend to put the Ld9 warboss in a unit with the banner for Ld10 (so the aura leaves me up 1 point).

The spirit horde gives ethereal movement and the 2D6 S3 attacks are magical. The other 8 S5 attacks are not magical (4 from the vampire, 2 from each of the handmaidens). The handmaidens also have WS5 and ASF, so you don't get re-rolls against the throne.

Fear-bombing may also be a good exploit vs lists I've been seeing so far.

It's not that you want magical attacks, it's that you want magic weapons. The fact that they grant magical attacks is irrelevant if I'm buying it for the +2 strength.

As for the lances, I was running my Vamire Lord with a lance for quite awhile, but kept finding myself in these grinding combats that just got worse after the first round because I'd lose the lance. So I changed my build to include the Ogre Blade and, more recently, the Sword of Anti-Heroes.

This is off-topic, but I've got another question so I'm gonna PM you.

65 archers and 40 maidenguard and then another 40 shadow wawrriors plus a couple of lvl4s or loremaster makes the best shooting in the game and they still fight well in 3-4ranks horded up.

you can also get 3+wards for the majority of your army and characters with little effort.

buckero0 wrote:
65 archers and 40 maidenguard and then another 40 shadow wawrriors plus a couple of lvl4s or loremaster makes the best shooting in the game and they still fight well in 3-4ranks horded up.

you can also get 3+wards for the majority of your army and characters with little effort.

Seaguard is nice too. Shoot them --> stand&shoot them --> welcome to my wall of spears.

buckero0 wrote:
65 archers and 40 maidenguard and then another 40 shadow wawrriors plus a couple of lvl4s or loremaster makes the best shooting in the game and they still fight well in 3-4ranks horded up.

you can also get 3+wards for the majority of your army and characters with little effort.

RBT > Maidenguard. 6 shots S4 and AP vs all targets, with twice the range. All for the cost of 5 magic bows.
Plus the option for a S6 no save shot, should you get something lined up on a flank.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can't catch me:
Elite infantry (lions or swordmasters) with banner of swiftness.
Then cast Hand of Glory (+D3 to movement, initiative, weapon skill and ballistic skill). You've got a unit that has a move of 7 to 9 inches, with a weapon skill of 7 to 9.
The cast walk between worlds for the 20" movement.

This is crazy fast for infantry.
Turn 1, you're 12" ahead after movement, then another 20" ignoring terrain. Turn 2 you're making a 15" charge on average. Put in a Sea Helm into the unit, and you can expose a flank on the way in if you need to.

What's more, the high magic lore attribute will make the 6+ ward vs shooting even better.

It's a death star on speed.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

RBT > Maidenguard. 6 shots S4 and AP vs all targets, with twice the range. All for the cost of 5 magic bows.
Plus the option for a S6 no save shot, should you get something lined up on a flank.

The Sisters can be joined by a Handmaiden who give them quick to fire, which is pretty neat. Also, the sisters are more "durable" in CC (more bodies) and possibly even vs shooting, but I can't be bothered doing the maths for that one.

 The Shadow wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

RBT > Maidenguard. 6 shots S4 and AP vs all targets, with twice the range. All for the cost of 5 magic bows.
Plus the option for a S6 no save shot, should you get something lined up on a flank.

The Sisters can be joined by a Handmaiden who give them quick to fire, which is pretty neat. Also, the sisters are more "durable" in CC (more bodies) and possibly even vs shooting, but I can't be bothered doing the maths for that one.

5 t3 wound is not more durable than 2 T7 wounds.
Sisters losing firepower as the unit takes wounds. Bolt throwers don't.

I wouldn't really call either durable. I guess you can say the sisters are less fragile, but neither holds up to anything significant.
You could do a sister death star and beef up a ward save with lots of high casting. But, it's a shooting death star, not a melee one. You won't slaughter anything in combat, you just might be able to hold for awhile.

-Matt

 Sigvatr wrote:
Nah, that's not true. All other 8th army books are really well-written. It's just Mat Ward being an a-hole and stuff.

He's just doing his job and GW are evidently very happy with the way he goes about things. This book will no doubt sell well and boost the sale of HE models, so it justifies his wage.

I didn't doubt that it will sell well or sth. Just saying that Mat Ward is to rules writing what James Cameron is to quality scripts.

 The Shadow wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

RBT > Maidenguard. 6 shots S4 and AP vs all targets, with twice the range. All for the cost of 5 magic bows.
Plus the option for a S6 no save shot, should you get something lined up on a flank.

The Sisters can be joined by a Handmaiden who give them quick to fire, which is pretty neat. Also, the sisters are more "durable" in CC (more bodies) and possibly even vs shooting, but I can't be bothered doing the maths for that one.

Only glanced at in the shop but I thought it read that ALL Sisters and Handmaidens have Quick to Fire - not that the HM grants it?

 Sigvatr wrote:
I didn't doubt that it will sell well or sth. Just saying that Mat Ward is to rules writing what James Cameron is to quality scripts.

James Cameron wrote Aliens and Terminator. I'd say thats enough quality.

Aw crap, I meant Michael Bay. Sorry.

His rules are on Uwe Boll level, but he turns his turd into a shiny turd by having LOOK IT'S GOOD stuff in it just like Bay uses LOOK BIG EXPLOSIONS to cover up the mess he makes.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

RBT > Maidenguard. 6 shots S4 and AP vs all targets, with twice the range. All for the cost of 5 magic bows.
Plus the option for a S6 no save shot, should you get something lined up on a flank.

The Sisters can be joined by a Handmaiden who give them quick to fire, which is pretty neat. Also, the sisters are more "durable" in CC (more bodies) and possibly even vs shooting, but I can't be bothered doing the maths for that one.

Only glanced at in the shop but I thought it read that ALL Sisters and Handmaidens have Quick to Fire - not that the HM grants it?

Handmaiden gives them quick to fire.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Aw crap, I meant Michael Bay. Sorry.

His rules are on Uwe Boll level, but he turns his turd into a shiny turd by having LOOK IT'S GOOD stuff in it just like Bay uses LOOK BIG EXPLOSIONS to cover up the mess he makes.

Michael Bay isn't a scriptwriter.

If Matt Ward really did such a bad job, GW would have shown him the door by now.

Can we close this thread so we don't need to wade through pages of rumours to get to the current info.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Aw crap, I meant Michael Bay. Sorry.

His rules are on Uwe Boll level, but he turns his turd into a shiny turd by having LOOK IT'S GOOD stuff in it just like Bay uses LOOK BIG EXPLOSIONS to cover up the mess he makes.

Please, nothing has ever made my poor ears bleed while simultaneously laughing half-to-death as the infamous, "Oh Anikan, you're breaking my heart!"
I mean, who does that to Natalie Portman?!!

What you're looking for is Ward = George Lucas.


Overall I'd say High Elves are right up there with Ogres in terms of their overall capabilities, but they'll have more lists available to them...

I know HE players keep insisting that army-wide T3 is a huge weakness, but in all actuality, it's only a glaring issue on their characters. T3 is average toughness in Fantasy, unlike in 40K where T3 is a true weakness!

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Aw crap, I meant Michael Bay. Sorry.

His rules are on Uwe Boll level, but he turns his turd into a shiny turd by having LOOK IT'S GOOD stuff in it just like Bay uses LOOK BIG EXPLOSIONS to cover up the mess he makes.

Michael Bay isn't a scriptwriter.

If Matt Ward really did such a bad job, GW would have shown him the door by now.

Perspective.

GW said they do not care for balance and for comp play. They want to sell stuff. How do you do that? Pump out overpowered crap. Enter Mat Ward.

Mat Ward is good for GW, but terrible for players.

At first I didn't think the Loremaster was worth taking but with a new list i have been working on for an upcoming tournament I am going to bring him.

I plan on doing this.

Loremaster
Book of Hoeth
Armor of Fortune
Cloak of the beards ( unless I can find another 10 point item)

 pities2004 wrote:
At first I didn't think the Loremaster was worth taking but with a new list i have been working on for an upcoming tournament I am going to bring him.

I plan on doing this.

Loremaster
Book of Hoeth
Armor of Fortune
Cloak of the beards ( unless I can find another 10 point item)

I generally think the Book of Hoeth is wasted on the Loremaster or, rather, it would be better on a Level 4. The loremaster's spells are all low casting (unless you boost them, I guess) and, although it's nice to get some one dice casts off, I really think the Book of Hoeth is better on a Level 4. The Level 4 can quite safely chuck less dice into a powerful spell that he would normally, forcing your opponent to let it through, or use more dice to dispel than you did to cast opening himself up more for your other spells.

And if you want a cheap Ward Save on the Loremaster, give him Shield of the Merwyrm and the Sword of Might. You lose a point of strength but gain ASF (so re-rolls to hit most probably) as well as gaining a 4+ ward for 35 points!

The Shield of the Merwyrm is rapidly becoming my second favourite magic item. And, no, my favourite is not the BotWD.

Well my plan was to put the loremaster in a unit of 39 PG and with high magic increase the ward.

I still have some tinkering to do. May switch to shield and drop the book

 pities2004 wrote:
At first I didn't think the Loremaster was worth taking but with a new list i have been working on for an upcoming tournament I am going to bring him.

I plan on doing this.

Loremaster
Book of Hoeth
Armor of Fortune
Cloak of the beards ( unless I can find another 10 point item)

Don't buy armor of fortune you pay 5 points for nothing ehen you could take the talisman of endurance instead. Hint: You have Heavy Armor to start why pay for it again.

 captain collius wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:
At first I didn't think the Loremaster was worth taking but with a new list i have been working on for an upcoming tournament I am going to bring him.

I plan on doing this.

Loremaster
Book of Hoeth
Armor of Fortune
Cloak of the beards ( unless I can find another 10 point item)

Don't buy armor of fortune you pay 5 points for nothing ehen you could take the talisman of endurance instead. Hint: You have Heavy Armor to start why pay for it again.

Yeah i'll do that, thanks

I don't like how they basically seemed to drop Old Ones from the lore. Everything is about the HE gods now. Which kind of muddles things for me. If HE were creator gods and around since the dawn of time, etc, how did the Old Ones create the HE? They just make it seem like the Old Ones were some Silver Surfer aliens who accidentally blew up the planet doing some surfing trick but weren't really more than that.

They have kind of an out in that they go, "we didn't keep track of history before this." What? You're all nearly immortal but because you didn't keep desktop calendars you forgot everything? Unlike other races they'd know a lot about their primordial past. Cuz you'd have great great great great great great great great grandfathers still alive.

We'll see what happens with the Lizardman book.

Couldn't the Old Ones be the High Elf gods, just by a different name?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Couldn't the Old Ones be the High Elf gods, just by a different name?

That's my theory but only the Slann would actually know.

As long as greenskins can still claim that they are the oldest race, I'm fine with the fluff

I think the gods keep answering, though, right? That whole Phoenix King stuff. That was after the sundering and the Old Ones took off. They also make it (fuzzy) that the gods can still walk the earth. Though rare. And a sword of Khaine seems like an odd thing for Old Ones to leave around. Maybe it was their toothpick or something?

There's that skink priest who gets a ward save because of his prayers to sotek. Which makes it POSSIBLE Old Ones are still doing Old Stuff.

Aren't the Old Ones dead? Exterminated by the Necrons / C'Tan?

Aren't 40k fluff and fantasy fluff totally seperate? I know years and years ago they said they were on a planet in the eye of the storm or something.

Possible that some old ones are still around and are gods. I mean look at sigmar, he became a god, so many the old ones did something special for him.

40K fluff doesn't tie with WHFB anymore. Severed years ago. Because maintaining the link hamstrung both sides.

No one knows what happened to the Old Ones. They mighta just blown up their gates, went, DOH, then left before anyone could blame them.