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So the new codex is out and I'm actually a bit surprised by the changes, and surprised by the lack of changes. Some may remember the 14 page thread from a few months ago, and I thought I'd take a look at what Tau currently have available now as far as troops. Starting off, I find it odd that our troop slot is the most limited and optionless slot we have. Honestly, we have more named characters than troop choices. We have two total troop options in an enviornment filled with armies that are able to take a variety of troops. This seriously leaves me wondering if this was a fully worked on codex of if it was a rushed attempt to sell just a few high priced models. I digress though, on to the discussion of our main troop.

I'll try to list out the changes (correct me if I'm wrong or inform me if I forgot anything)
What's the same?
-We still have the same abysmal statline.
-Weapons are still the same, with the exception of pulsecarbines being assault 2 now.
-Sargeant upgrade is still 10 points, for a total of 19 points for a single model with LD8.
-Still the two drone limit and no actual change to the drones as far as firepower is concerned.
-Still only one transport and it's still expensive at 80 points minimum.
-Markerlight and target lock are the same price, but can't be purchased seperately anymore.

What changed?
-Bonding knives are now more expensive at 1ppm (so atleast 1 point more expensive than previously). I also believe that it's not nearly as useful as VoTLW or ATSKNF which are both priced about 1ppm.
-Haywire grenades are available for a decent price.
-HQ units can buff firewarriors. Fireblade and Darkstrider buff 1 unit while Ethereals buff units within 12"
-Marker drones got dropped by 18ppm. They no longer buff their own squad anymore however.
-Firewarriors can no longer take Blacksun Filters, though I'm not sure if anyone did this before hand.
-Supporting fire gives FW a better chance in CC.

So where do we really stand?
Firewarriors themselves don't really change that much, nor how they play. The Sarge upgrade is insane, and in no way worth 19 points especially with a distinct lack of wargear. The only reason I could see one being purchased would be for the addition of markerdrones, however they may as well just be purchased by the squad for 17ppm for all the good the sarge does.

Haywire grenades are nice, I will admit that, but I find that vehicles tend to be equipped with weaponry that is far better at taking down FW than FW will be at taking down vehicles. 11ppm isn't much for the unit, but the problem still lies in the execution and footslogging firewarriors tend to be easy targets.

Markerlights are more heavily required now that that Tau seem to have some good blast weapons with low AP, but even more so restricted than before. With markerdrones no longer providing for their own squad and the reduction to pathfinder armor, markers will probably just as scarce as always, with very few being left available for FW. This is also compounded by the issue that the favored suit build will be using two weapons at BS3 with no option out of ML to increase. Easiest way to look at it is needing 3 markerlights per squad for BS4 and no cover, meaning 6 pathfinders. As you can see, makerlights can quickly become exhausted. However markerlight drones attached to units may provide extra tokens to allow other units to try and finish them off, this will still probably leave FW last in line.

The Devilfish is still absurdly priced, costing now 95 points to bring with a disruption pod and no significant change to weapons. Burst cannons changed to Heavy4 and SMS got increased range, they also ignore LOS but few armies have 5+ save units so it is almost negligible. One issue that must be addressed is that Tau vehicles are not able to move and fire like fast skimmers, so this becomes a problem when having a transport designed to move units downfield rapidly. The devilfish body is also 5.5" long, meaning that any vehicle wanting to move forward will have issues with terrain unless it's .5" thick and right infront of the fish or else they will not be able to fire. I know some folks would point out using sensor spines, but when the problem is costing too much you can't solve the issue by throwing more points down this sink hole. Another issue with this is that Firewarriors are a unit with no heavy weapons, relying on the strength of the unit shooting to compensate for the lack of plasma, melta, and such. Units like this could benefit more from an open topped transport they could fire from while still protecting the unit, much like the Necron Ghost ark but without all the A13 insanity. To sum it up, the devilfish is still too expensive on top of troops that are still pricey. To compare, Kroot are cheaper than FW and have a much better delivery system, that I will cover later.

Supporting fire has me lost at the moment. It's a nice addition, but more than likely will have little effect. Tau units, Firewarriors in particular, have been easy to shoot down with CC just being the finishing blow. Supporting fire may seem nice right now, until players learn that you can sit in cover for 1 more turn to make sure as many units are dead before getting into CC. This is also a double edged sword because you group units closer to benefit from the supporting fire, but make your units more vulnerable to blasts.

HQ support for firewarriors leaves me kinda confused currently. For me Firewarriors are a unit that's best left alone, and any attention they draw reduces their numbers significantly. Darkstrider and Fireblade don't seem to be as effective as ethereals due to their single unit limitations, while the ethereal manages to boost multiple units and make better use of the new supporting fire rule. Truthfully I don't like these options and feel that the suit commanders will probably be the most prevelent HQs due to their ability to assist the more vital units of the army in better ways.

What I truly think is the nail in the coffin for FW is the fact that Kroot got a lot more useful. Recon drones can allow a unit to outflank from the board edge they are 6" from, including the back table edge. With a pathfinder devilfish rush, you could bring Kroot that are able to swap between Rapid Fire and Sniper rounds as they need. Coming in on the opponent's table edge can cause enough of a distraction to limit an opponent's advance or even focus to claim a critical objective. They are cheaper, have better options, and can get just about anywhere thanks to infiltrate and outflank. Now that Kroot can also benefit from markerlights and carry non limiting weapons thanks to the Krootox, I see them being far more useful and game changing than firewarriors.

Overall I think it's hard to really gauge all the changes, but I think it's safe to assume that FW are very lackluster and will take a more passive stance of just "holding the line" while units like Crisis suits and Kroot try to actually win the battle.

at least you arent forced to take the sergeant!
Chaos Cultists Champions are required cost 14 points and suck more.

Don't forget we got defensive grenades for free. Which I find to be a nerf, because if my FW get in CC, I want them to die and not survive the turn. if they survive, just means they die on my turn and my opponent get away scott free from being shot to death while in my battlelines. Damn GW and forcing bad equipment options on us.

Are we still forgetting the gun? its all about the gun! No one has this gun! Pulse rifles get that lovely 30" range at a potential 36" threat range, or a 42" threat range when deployed from a devilfish. And its S5. wounding on a 2+ or a 3+ after you get BS5 from markerlights is alot. Sure DE might be better stated, but their guns only wound on a 4+. even against crap guardsman. Guardsman can barely wound anything, and now a FW with an ethereal or a fireblade can almost match their firepower and you dont even need to worry about failing orders. On top of that they have a 4+ save which means theres alot less armor pen for them (im looking at you 5+ save, you rarely get rolled) since almost everything is AP5. Thats still a huge advantage. Plus there that magic synergy of markerlights. Sure you need another unit to make it work, but how many armies can have their basic troops ignore cover? Or raise their BS for any reason? All in all i say while FW did not get a huge boost, and their sarges totally suck, they themselves do not, infact suck.....except their leadership, which is my only complaint. I would think lifelong trained future warriors and ideological zealots who would commit suicide if an ethereal asked them to would merit better than an almost enslaved guardsmen or a mentally challenged Ork.

Outside of that though, id say Firewarriors are awesome, and like everything in the Tau Empire and the greater good, the individual does not prosper without the sum of everyone around him; only through teamwork, cooperation, and sacrifice shall there be victory. So markerlights and ethereals for everyone!

IG can effectively ignore cover, or make it not as good with orders, they can also get TL with orders, and more shots. And the units that give these orders do things other then just give orders. They also shoot and kill stuff as well. Comparing Tau to IG is a fail, because IG do the same thing, without the penalties and extra costs to be honest. They also can have troops that start with SB4 and take special weapons.

I like everyone Tau fanaticism, but some people take it too far. Firewarriors didn't really get good enough to be a solid troops, they went from mediocre to slight less medicore but still not good.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Are we still forgetting the gun? its all about the gun! No one has this gun! Pulse rifles get that lovely 30" range at a potential 36" threat range, or a 42" threat range when deployed from a devilfish. And its S5. wounding on a 2+ or a 3+ after you get BS5 from markerlights is alot. Sure DE might be better stated, but their guns only wound on a 4+. even against crap guardsman. Guardsman can barely wound anything, and now a FW with an ethereal or a fireblade can almost match their firepower and you dont even need to worry about failing orders. On top of that they have a 4+ save which means theres alot less armor pen for them (im looking at you 5+ save, you rarely get rolled) since almost everything is AP5. Thats still a huge advantage. Plus there that magic synergy of markerlights. Sure you need another unit to make it work, but how many armies can have their basic troops ignore cover? Or raise their BS for any reason? All in all i say while FW did not get a huge boost, and their sarges totally suck, they themselves do not, infact suck.....except their leadership, which is my only complaint. I would think lifelong trained future warriors and ideological zealots who would commit suicide if an ethereal asked them to would merit better than an almost enslaved guardsmen or a mentally challenged Ork.

Outside of that though, id say Firewarriors are awesome, and like everything in the Tau Empire and the greater good, the individual does not prosper without the sum of everyone around him; only through teamwork, cooperation, and sacrifice shall there be victory. So markerlights and ethereals for everyone!

It's all about the gun? That sums up just about every non-Tau player's opinion of Tau. Bolters get that lovely 24" range at a potential 30" threat range, plus special/heavy weapons, plus the option to take a cheap transport they can still fire from! S5 shots don't really do that much T4/3+, at least not enough to be cost effective. If you are counting BS5, then you're having to factor in 2 markerlights or 4 pathfinders for another 44 points that just won't get that much wounds out. 12 shots, getting 10 hits, getting 6.67 wounds, ending in 2.22 unsaved wounds. That's 152 points to kill 2 marines, while a hammerhead (either varient) would be far better suited for the task.

Meanwhile 152 points of marines gives you about 10 tacticles with just enough left over for a melta gun. The squad is far more versatile and let's see how much damage it does to firewarriors in return. 10 marines shooting at BS4, 6.67 hits, 4.44 wounds, 2.22 unsaved wounds. So one slot vice two, a stronger and more survivable unit, better leadership, better armor save, and a special weapon can be tossed in while also being better in CC. If FW are so awesome, why do they rely on another unit to bring them up to MEQ performance with bolters?

And don't give me the tired excuse that IG can't do anything with lasguns. IG aren't taken for lasguns. They're taken for the blob numbers or heavy firepower or both. I'm sorry but I just can't stand when people compare IG to Tau. And then you follow up with this little gem

Guardsman can barely wound anything, and now a FW with an ethereal or a fireblade can almost match their firepower and you dont even need to worry about failing orders

So if I take an HQ I can run one FW squad that are almost as good as IG at twice the cost?

Firewarriors do get a 4+ save, but it's not valuable on a troop that is expensive, in small squads, and with generally poor leadership. It's actually a hinderance because it makes the unit cost much more than it should, especially when cover can make up for lack of armor.
And I understand that Firewarriors aren't alone in the army, but the point still remains that most games FW are simply ignored because they are more of a pest than a threat. If you do anything to try and buff the unit, such as bringing HQs or using markerlights on them, then you're more than likely hurting the composition of your army. Using markerlights to let Firewarriors ignore cover is pretty silly, since just about any other unit could do a better job compared to firewarriors while most armies will get a better armor save than 5+.
Like most good armies, the troops are the foundation from which the rest of the army is built upon. The Tau however rely so heavily on elites and heavy slots that the troops generally fill in what's left.

Ive been playing tau and IG for quite a while, and I simply think you are underestimating them. Ive never played a game where people think of FW as a hindrance and usually when they ignore them it comes back on them with full force, usually when i pop the side armor of their transports or chimeras, and that was with the old codex! While i understand comparing IG is not a good analog, I have played games where you fire literally hundreds of lasguns and with almost no effect, AT ALL. Guard orders are dandy, when they work. You forget that one bad leadership roll kills of the chain of orders, and your entire army, if it is order dependent, can completely lose all of their special abilities. This is a real pain. Not to mention most guns in the game ignore your armor saves, so you are depending on a meatshield to keep your special weapons alive and hoping that you wont fail your leadership save and fall back, or be stuck in cover the whole time. Tau are about mobility, and moving and having a lot more range on your opponent means you can keep away from him. That extra 6" means that your opponent may not be able to shoot at you, or you force them to move out of their comfy cover to shoot you, or better yet, they send something far more valuable to shoot your FW, instead of attacking your more valuable crisis suits or heavy support. You also need to take into consideration the supporting fire special rule. Overwatch has been know to not be that big of a deal. But with supporting fire, it is. One squad double tapping snapfire S5 isnt much, but if you play smart you should have 3 squads doing that. This will more than likely kill a few models in the enemy unit, and render the charge out of range. Now you have a unit sitting right in front of your 3 strategically placed FW squads with their thumbs in less than respectable orifices, ready to die. For the Greater Good!

With the new Tau HQs i can reliably get special powers akin to FRFSRF, stubborn, and snapshooting whilst running, as well as a nice leadership bubble. The leadership bubble of the ethereal i think is really important, in that you can keep your firewarriors from running away, something they are traditionally famous for (sometimes i think i lost more FW in 5th to falling off the board than i did to enemy shooting). In order to get this same ability you would have to put a regimental standard on a CCS, which is a notoriously squishy unit. At least the ethereal can hide himself behind some FW and shield drones, or even in a devilfish.

By themselves FW are weak compared to other troops in other armies. Thats not the point of Tau. FW are better when used with the rest of their army, and best of all, most of the things that boost them boost all the other units in the Tau army. Some armies have stellar troops, but their other slots are lacking. Tau have stellar everything else except troops, and their other units make FW better.

While I can kind of understand people's problems, this seems like a symptom of Space Marines being far too common.

In the 40k universe, BS3 is a trained soldiers skill with a gun. A decent fit and healthy warrior is S and T 3. A basic set of armour is 5+ and a good set is 4+. Even Ld 7 in humans reflects a certain amount of training and resolve!

Tangent: This is why I think Chaos Cultists should be WS and BS 2 with Ld 6.

But people keep comparing to Space Marines as though they are the baseline. Space Marines are meant to be horrifically more skilled and powerful than the average soldier in this galaxy.

But I suppose arguing from Fluff for Rules isn't going to make any difference... I just don't understand why everyone seems to want all solider to be superheroes in this game. There should be far more 'lackluster' units in my opinion.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
While I can kind of understand people's problems, this seems like a symptom of Space Marines being far too common.

In the 40k universe, BS3 is a trained soldiers skill with a gun. A decent fit and healthy warrior is S and T 3. A basic set of armour is 5+ and a good set is 4+. Even Ld 7 in humans reflects a certain amount of training and resolve!

Tangent: This is why I think Chaos Cultists should be WS and BS 2 with Ld 6.

But people keep comparing to Space Marines as though they are the baseline. Space Marines are meant to be horrifically more skilled and powerful than the average soldier in this galaxy.

But I suppose arguing from Fluff for Rules isn't going to make any difference... I just don't understand why everyone seems to want all solider to be superheroes in this game. There should be far more 'lackluster' units in my opinion.

Isnt that what grots are for?

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Isnt that what grots are for?

And I love them!

FW are very lackluster and will take a more passive stance of just "holding the line" while units like Crisis suits and Kroot try to actually win the battle.

You nailed it. Kroot > Fire Warriors and it's not even close.

 generalchaos34 wrote:


Outside of that though, id say Firewarriors are awesome, and like everything in the Tau Empire and the greater good, the individual does not prosper without the sum of everyone around him; only through teamwork, cooperation, and sacrifice shall there be victory. So markerlights and ethereals for everyone!

People often make this mistake; Leadership checks from shooting and close combat aren't supposed to represent just cowardice. It also represents the units deciding that "Maybe it would be tactically advantageous to retreat out of range of this hailstorm of bullets" or "Perhaps we can lure these orks into the path of fire of our buddies behind that wall"

Having a low morale don't necessarily mean that the unit is full of cowards, from a fluff or gameplay standpoint. Or else, why would artificially autonomous drones have a low leadership?

davou wrote:

People often make this mistake; Leadership checks from shooting and close combat aren't supposed to represent just cowardice. It also represents the units deciding that "Maybe it would be tactically advantageous to retreat out of range of this hailstorm of bullets" or "Perhaps we can lure these orks into the path of fire of our buddies behind that wall"

The best/only real example of that is Vanilla Marines' Chapter Tactics where they can actually choose to fail and fall back only to regroup automatically next turn.

Most armies only have 1-2 troops choices:
-Chaos Marines: CSM and Cultists
-Dark Angels/Black Templar/Space Marines: Tac Marines and Scouts
-Dark Eldar: Warriors and Wyches
-Grey Knights: Termies and Strike Squads
-Necrons: Warriors and Immortals
-Orks: Boyz and Grots
-Sisters: Battle Sisters
-Space Wolves: Grey Hunters and Blood Claws (but who uses Blood Claws?)

Of course, of those armies, all of them have the options to do FOC switches with certain characters (with the only exceptions being Necrons and Sisters).

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Most armies only have 1-2 troops choices:
-Chaos Marines: CSM and Cultists
-Dark Angels/Black Templar/Space Marines: Tac Marines and Scouts
-Dark Eldar: Warriors and Wyches
-Grey Knights: Termies and Strike Squads
-Necrons: Warriors and Immortals
-Orks: Boyz and Grots
-Sisters: Battle Sisters
-Space Wolves: Grey Hunters and Blood Claws (but who uses Blood Claws?)

Of course, of those armies, all of them have the options to do FOC switches with certain characters (with the only exceptions being Necrons and Sisters).

That's a little disingenuous to say that those are the only troop choices while mentioning how the FOC can be shifted, especially when a lot of it can be done without special characters.

From memory, that list should look more like:
-Chaos Marines: CSM, Cultists, Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons
-Dark Angels: Tac Marines, Scouts, Terminators, Bikes
-Space Marines: Tac Marines, Scouts, Bikes (not too sure?) (plus with Forgeworld, you can get Terminators and definitely Bikes) (also you can get scoring, but not troop, Sternguard)
-Dark Eldar: Warriors, Wyches, Wracks, Hellions
-Grey Knights: Termies, Strike Squads, Henchmen
-Necrons: Warriors and Immortals
-Orks: Boyz, Grots, Nobz, Bikes, Deff Dreads
-Sisters: Battle Sisters
-Space Wolves: Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Wolf Guard

And of those, CSM, DE, and Orks don't even have to use named characters to expand their selections. Tau are weak in the troops department, but I think there is enough strength in the book to back it up. Obviously that'll really come to light in the coming months, but I think it's ok to admit that that is a flaw the book has, and instead of arguing over whether their troops are weak (they are) focus more on how to compensate for it.

This seriously leaves me wondering if this was a fully worked on codex of if it was a rushed attempt to sell just a few high priced models.

Yeah, they took ten years rushing this codex out...

Coyote81 wrote:
Don't forget we got defensive grenades for free. Which I find to be a nerf, because if my FW get in CC, I want them to die and not survive the turn. if they survive, just means they die on my turn and my opponent get away scott free from being shot to death while in my battlelines. Damn GW and forcing bad equipment options on us.

IMO this is not true anymore. If your about to be charged and you have an Ethereal nearby he can make all the units stubborn. All of the sudden this fragile unit of FW can become a tarpit if they survive the hits using the Etereal's LD and its reroll. Overwatch and def grenades should soften the blow of a charge and while you might not win but tie him up for a few rounds.

thejughead wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
Don't forget we got defensive grenades for free. Which I find to be a nerf, because if my FW get in CC, I want them to die and not survive the turn. if they survive, just means they die on my turn and my opponent get away scott free from being shot to death while in my battlelines. Damn GW and forcing bad equipment options on us.

IMO this is not true anymore. If your about to be charged and you have an Ethereal nearby he can make all the units stubborn. All of the sudden this fragile unit of FW can become a tarpit if they survive the hits using the Etereal's LD and its reroll. Overwatch and def grenades should soften the blow of a charge and while you might not win but tie him up for a few rounds.

I was going to post something very similar. I don't think people are really considering the defensive grenades within the scope of all the other changes. It is much more likely now that after being hit by an entire gun line of overwatch you are only left with a couple of dudes reaching CC, ie few enough where the FW can hang around and tar pit...and might actually even win, against.

Edit: Also I think people are completely forgetting the 8" stealth this gives them. Won't always come into play, but it can certainly help when taking close range fire or pre-assault fire.


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HQ support for firewarriors leaves me kinda confused currently. For me Firewarriors are a unit that's best left alone, and any attention they draw reduces their numbers significantly.

This doesn't make any sense at all. So you think Fire Warriors suck, but don't want to make them any better because then people might shoot at them?...


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The Devilfish is still absurdly priced, costing now 95 points to bring with a disruption pod and no significant change to weapons.

So a 25% increase in damage isn't "significant"? Weird.

It's hard to tarpit with 12 man teams that can't hit back and take heavy wounds. Besides, as Coyote pointed out, you want them to fail on the charge so you can hit them with as much shooting as you can your turn. Of if you want to keep a unit tarpit for a round next to a fragile HQ, it's your choice.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
It's hard to tarpit with 12 man teams that can't hit back and take heavy wounds. Besides, as Coyote pointed out, you want them to fail on the charge so you can hit them with as much shooting as you can your turn. Of if you want to keep a unit tarpit for a round next to a fragile HQ, it's your choice.

You are still appraising this with a 5th edition mindset and their 4th edition codex. I think you are severely underestimating what a competently built and placed Tau gunline can do during Overwatch.

Why do i have the feeling that people wants the firewarriors to stay "bad"?

Anyway, the firewarrior arent that bad, you hit on 4+ with 30" range and 2 shots at 15" have a 4+ save, and all of the HQs can actually be very helpful, and the Devilfish can be upgraded to have a 4+ cover save for only +15 points.

I got a feeling that players view on points costs are a bit screwed, so far the Tau is balanced in compairson to some stronger armies ( such as New Necrons ) and some weaker ( such as Tyranids )

Yeah, I wonder what people think an AV 12 4+ (3+ when TurboBoosting) cover save that can shot 8 S5 shots Skimmer is suppose to be worth? It's not a Rhino. It's Faster, better at shooting, and more resilient. Why do people think it should cost the same?

Yes firewarriors still suck. They still are not worth their points because in the long haul of things, they still cannot do their job. 6-12 wounds, T3, 4+ save LD7/8 just cannot be relied upon to hold objectives and that is their main job.

What makes Firewarriors good is the HQ options. Sadly you only can have two of them and 6 units of firewarriors. Now, imagine if firewarriors were actually good and the addition of HQ units made them great. Now your talking about an army that has staying power. Two great troop units and 4 good ones sounds so much better.

However, even though I feel that firewarriors are still a bad unit, it doesn't mean they are useless. 4 6 man firewarrior squads can bring 8-12 markerlights that other much more powerfully hitting units can utililize to do maximum carnage. A suicide unit of firewarriors with EMP grenades can destroy any non-flyer vehicle/walker in the game.

The question becomes though, just how many points are you willing to pay for what ifs. Is paying 2 points for EMP grenades worth it? Against landraider rushes, probably, against Nids - yeah, thought not. 19 points for LD 8 might be worth it for forward moving troops. However, its wasted if you have campers with an ethereal near by.

I think the trick to using firewarriors is to know just how much fat to include so that the unit either helps or draws even in their usefulness of the battle plan.

72 Firewarriors will probably murder the hell out of the Green Tide. They will do nothing against IG Chimera parking lot spam.


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ShadarLogoth wrote:
Yeah, I wonder what people think an AV 12 4+ (3+ when TurboBoosting) cover save that can shot 8 S5 shots Skimmer is suppose to be worth? It's not a Rhino. It's Faster, better at shooting, and more resilient. Why do people think it should cost the same?

No one said it should cost Rhino points. But is there any reason it should cost 25 more points than a Chimera? 4 BS3 shots and 4 BS1 shots is not nearly as impressive sounding as 8 S5 shots. (it doesn't matter what strength the gun is if half your shots need 6s to hit)

When I said you don't want to draw attention to firewarriors I mean you don't want to offer up both an HQ and a troop in one easy to crush package. Especially if you happen to make it your warlord.

The Devilfish is silly at 95 points for a 4+ save, when it was barely taken at 90 points for a 3+ save and could move and shoot its weapons. Now it can't move and shoot its weapons if it ever intends to clear an obstacle due to its length. For something that's as large as it is it can only carry 2 more troops than a rhino, but has far inferior firepower compared to a razorback at a higher cost. The problem is you're paying higher points for a transport that's really inferior to just about every other transport in the game.

I really don't want firewarriors to be bad, but they are. They haven't changed much since the previous edition while the competing Kroot got much better synergy and options.

I won't get into the Mathhammer, but to make a long story short: Ld 7-8 on 12 wound units at T3 with 4+ save are not survivable. BS3 S5 shots are not amazing when they lack specialized fire from heavy/special weapons. Tau are outclassed in just about every aspect and excell at a tactic that is not beneficial in objective based games.

No one said it should cost Rhino points. But is there any reason it should cost 25 more points than a Chimera? 4 BS3 shots and 4 BS1 shots is not nearly as impressive sounding as 8 S5 shots. (it doesn't matter what strength the gun is if half your shots need 6s to hit)

It's more resilient, faster, and has better guns. So how much is all of that worth?

Where are you getting its faster than a Chimera? It can move 12" and flat out another 6, just like any other non-fast vehicle in the game. Yes it does have a jink save if it moves and it can be increased to a 4 plus putting the tank at 95 points. Yes skimmers float over difficult terrain (yet still must test if it stops in it). Chimeras can take hull/turret heavy weapons (Multi-laser and Heavy Bolters anyone?), Chimeras have 6 fireports where BS4 vets can shoot special/heavy weapons of their choice out of. Again, why should the 0 fireport, +1 side armor, just as slow D-fish cost 25 more points?

Heck its only 35 points cheaper than a base Ghost Arc that has AV13 on the front and sides and is immune to T4 assaults.

I won't get into the Mathhammer, but to make a long story short: Ld 7-8 on 12 wound units at T3 with 4+ save are not survivable. BS3 S5 shots are not amazing when they lack specialized fire from heavy/special weapons. Tau are outclassed in just about every aspect and excell at a tactic that is not beneficial in objective based games.

For 9 points/model T3 4+ is plenty survivable, particularly when you can tack 6+ FNP on top of it. You have access to Ld 10...so...use it, I guess?

I really don't know what the last statement means. They are one of the best shooting troops in what everybody likes to tell me is a "shooting edition."


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 Jayden63 wrote:
Where are you getting its faster than a Chimera? It has a jink save if it moves and floats over difficult terrain (yet still must test if it stops in it). Chimeras can take hull/turret heavy weapons, Chimeras have 6 fireports where BS4 vets can shoot special/heavy weapons of their choice out of. Again, why should the 0 fireport, +1 side armor, just as slow D-fish cost 25 more points?

Sorry, instead of faster I should say "more maneuverable." The 0 firepoint deal is mostly a non issue in an edition where leaving your dudes in the vehicle for extended periods of time is generally a bad idea, as crew shaken/stunned gets shared by the unit. And again, they have a superior cover save as well. So more manuevarable, better weapons, more resilient. You have to pay for those things.

As far as the cost of the transport is concerned: yes, it is "better" in many regards to many cheaper ones. But sometimes you don't need/want frills and gimmicks. Sometimes you just want a bunker to plop your guys in to get them from A to B twice as fast as footslogging will. A marine player can pump a list full of rhinos and not be hurting for points. A Tau player cannot do the same.
I'm not saying its a bad thing though. If every army was the se, it would be dull. The Tau are, by the cost/design of their transport, not supposed to be a zippy army.
On the Fire Warrior: two of my first few real matches were my crons vs tau. I think I shot three squads off the table turn 1 in one of those games. I'm rather surprised more hasn't been done to help their morale.
Once again, one can only intuit that FW are not meant to be "hold the line!" types. Much like my Necron Warriors, they are fairly easy to drop if they are not well supported. So....support them, I guess? It's going to come down to tactics and army composition determining if they are actually worth the points you spend on them.

There is only a certain amount that you can pay for stuff to be 'more maneuverable' or 'slightly tougher' before it starts cutting into points that you need to pay for raw killing power.

Devilfish don't have killing power; they bring only weapons which can be sourced easily elsewhere in the army. They don't provide good firepower on the move compared to other tanks with firepoints. They just pile on all these potentially useful things which you could possibly use in the right circumstances, but cost points that would be better spent on more railguns.


...
Firewarriors on the other hand, I think are fine. A lot of people I think underestimate the firepower that they can put out at 15/30" on the move. 15" rapid fire is really cool: teamed with an ethereal this is a significant amount of shots and you're relatively safe from being assaulted at 15", unlike if their rapid fire was 12".

I find it amusing how people assume defensive grenades is a bad thing because you want to lose combat hard enough to enure you brake.
Between the cover against the pre-charge shooting saving you a few deaths, and the improved overwatch abilities of tau and denying extra attacks fro the enemy, you should be aiming to WIN melee by now, simply by making whatever gets to you outnumbered too much.
A true assault unit will still cut through you like hot knife through butter, but now not every random guard who got close can.
Hell, even with the last codex I managed not only to fight off enemy assault, but at times to eliminate the enemy entirely, i expect it to improve this codex by requiring actual assault units to threat my army in melee.



As far as the drones go, gun drones doubled their firepower, and marker drones no longer need to stand still to shoot right (though its only BS2 anyway)
This also extends to the devilfish, who between improved drones and improved burst cannon moved from a 5 shot to an 8 shot transport, almost double the firepower.
Sure, its not amazing, but it helps.

EMP grenades-they are not there to blow up enemy tanks, you don't take them and attempt to reach enemy armor.
Its there to discorage enemy armor from coming to you, knowing that any tank, even a mighty land raider, can be taken out with relative ease from charging fire warriors. (8 EMP warriors should be enough for a land raider, 6 should be enough for anything with 3 hull points)



No, a fire warrior is not a space marine, but he costs so much less.
Think of them as buffed up guardsman rather then space marines, because they cost and are equipped as such.


As for their HQs, both are intended to help you hold objectives one way or another.

Fireblade allows you to extract more firepower out of a backfield objective sitter, and better resist attempt to remove them with improved leadership and extra firepower.

Darkstrider is an objective taken (when teamed with warriors), making their guns in effect S6 is HUGE, and his team can either outflank or scout ahead, with a devilfish included, allowing you to remove an enemy unit off an objective and claim it for yourself, see my post on ATT about the Flankfish for more information.

Ethereals are not FW spesific, but can also join them, and can give a slew of interesting tactical choices from powerful rapid fire, to increased livability, and even running and shooting (I don't know any other method to do this), not too sold about the stubborn one, but when you get to choose each turn from 4 abilities, you don't complain if one is iffy.

And if after all that you still have a hard time holding objectives, then you must only need to remember that:
You don't need to hold as many objectives as possible, just more objectives then your opponent. if you hold only 1 and he holds 0, its still your win.