Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I like Terminators, I find it is hard to go wrong with them. Two Heldrakes with baleflamers is solid. Problem with the Forgefiend is that it is a walker, and walkers are so easy to kill in this edition it makes it not even worth it...even if you get a 5+ Invuln save and 'it will not die'.

Oblits are ok, but you have to give them VotLW and MoN or MoT to make them more survivable. Put it like this, MoN turns that lascannon shot into a wound instead of a instant death (after you fail the 5+ Invuln save). MoT would allow you to get insta-gibbed, but you now have a 50% chance to make that save (4+ Invuln save). It all comes down to what layer of defense you want to use. The bad thing about Oblits is that they CAN NOT fire the same weapon two turns in a row. That sucks if your depending them to be your anti-vehicle unit. And if they are not your anti-vehicle unit, why have them? You have plenty of things to kill marines... like blastmasters.

Why I like Preds with LC Sponsons. If you camp them, they will fire their AC (two shots) and 1-2 LC shots on whatever you want dead, every turn, for less points than 2 Oblits. And you have AV 13 and you don't run away when your life partner eats a LC shot and fails his save. Get two.

Then for your third heavy slot, you can go Havocs, Oblits, whatever that you like that will give you some versatility. This is where I like Oblits... in a slot where I am not depending on them.

One then does have to ask... if I can't depend on them, is there room in my list for something that might no do what I want it to do? 150+ points could be a 2nd HQ slot or another unit/troop selection. Your call.

So for heavy support I get a Predator and Oblits? What do you think of me getting a Defiler instead of Oblits? And for that last fast attack slot would a full squad of bikers work? And for assaulting should I just use my possessed? or should I get somethign else? ( KB perhaps?). And finally, If I get Abbadon (which I plan to do) should I get some squads of Chosen (because they become troops)?

 Georgefancy wrote:
So for heavy support I get a Predator and Oblits? What do you think of me getting a Defiler instead of Oblits? And for that last fast attack slot would a full squad of bikers work? And for assaulting should I just use my possessed? or should I get somethign else? ( KB perhaps?). And finally, If I get Abbadon (which I plan to do) should I get some squads of Chosen (because they become troops)?

Predator + Obliterators = multiple multi-purpose tough heavy support units. Can be quite effective, but don't go overboard.

Defiler instead of Oblits? If you've got the points/money to spare, the defiler can be good ordinance for removing high-value targets, or clearing objectives. But Obliterators have two major advantages: They are far more versatile for their points, and they have access to far more specialized firepower. So it really depends on your personal preference.

I agree with Selym... but I do not like the Defiler, because I do not like the Battle Cannon. It is a Ordnance weapon. Just read the rules and you will understand...

 BlkTom wrote:
I agree with Selym... but I do not like the Defiler, because I do not like the Battle Cannon. It is a Ordnance weapon. Just read the rules and you will understand...

So you cant move and shoot in the same turn? what is so beaslty horrible about that? And what about the bikers and Abbadon and Chosen?

Defilaer, oblits, heldrake, plague marines. Anti space marine perfection

 Georgefancy wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
I agree with Selym... but I do not like the Defiler, because I do not like the Battle Cannon. It is a Ordnance weapon. Just read the rules and you will understand...

So you cant move and shoot in the same turn? what is so beaslty horrible about that? And what about the bikers and Abbadon and Chosen?

It also makes all of your other weapons fire as snap shots and your main shot, the BC? It is using scatter dice to hit, ignoring your BS for the most part. Your now hitting 33% of the time with a average of 7" scatter. Your only really firing the BC and nothing else, on a AV 12 walker. At that point, take a Vindicator for cheaper and the same effect. That is why it is a dog... your stuck with that BC, you can't swap it out and your paying 195pts for that? Good luck.

Abby is a beat stick but super expensive and Chosen are also super expensive. If your set on getting Abby, get two squads of chosen and magnetize the guns for meltas and plasma. Then figure out how your going to get them in range to use them, then lament the fact that a LR has no fire ports and a Rhino has only 2 and GW are a bunch of morons for not giving Chaos Marines drop pods...again. Then realize your getting a bunch of Terminators as well (which will also be super expensive) to ride along with Abby either in a LR or via DS. You will quickly come to realize that outside the things I listed, you will not have a lot of points for other things, You will now be out-numbered and out-gunned at whatever point game you play (probably at least 1500pts). Did I mention Chosen are not Fearless? Yeah...that really blows, IoV for them as well. Enjoy.

Bikers and Terminators are the Chaos Deathstar. There are two problems with them though... each one really wants to have IoV to make them Fearless. Otherwise nothing will bring a gamer to tears faster than watching your deathstar with your HQ in it break and run off the board from losing 25% Turn 1 shooting because you rolled 11+ on Leadership. The other problem is that you might /really/ want your Mark Icon on them (IoE....) and now you have to really make this hard choice. This is why the Elite cult troop choices made into troops are soooooo awesome for Chaos. My troops are Fearless, they will not run, you have to kill every single one of them. Suck it.

I hope this answers your questions.

 BlkTom wrote:

Bikers and Terminators are the Chaos Deathstar. There are two problems with them though... each one really wants to have IoV to make them Fearless. Otherwise nothing will bring a gamer to tears faster than watching your deathstar with your HQ in it break and run off the board from losing 25% Turn 1 shooting because you rolled 11+ on Leadership. The other problem is that you might /really/ want your Mark Icon on them (IoE....) and now you have to really make this hard choice. This is why the Elite cult troop choices made into troops are soooooo awesome for Chaos. My troops are Fearless, they will not run, you have to kill every single one of them. Suck it.

Gotta agree with this, sadly. Every time I look at the stats/profile for chosen I end up thinking to myself "Sucks to be you".
But on the subject of cult troops being badasses, this is why people hate Plague Marines. 2 special weapons per unit (perfect for a Rhino), T5, FnP, Poisoned (4+) melee weapons that give you a re-rol to wound anything with T4 or less, the standard 3+ armour, can take plas pistols and a power weapon and can never be scared off

^^Plague Marines are awesome^^

 BlkTom wrote:

 Georgefancy wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
I agree with Selym... but I do not like the Defiler, because I do not like the Battle Cannon. It is a Ordnance weapon. Just read the rules and you will understand...

So you cant move and shoot in the same turn? what is so beaslty horrible about that? And what about the bikers and Abbadon and Chosen?

It also makes all of your other weapons fire as snap shots and your main shot, the BC? It is using scatter dice to hit, ignoring your BS for the most part. Your now hitting 33% of the time with a average of 7" scatter. Your only really firing the BC and nothing else, on a AV 12 walker. At that point, take a Vindicator for cheaper and the same effect. That is why it is a dog... your stuck with that BC, you can't swap it out and your paying 195pts for that? Good luck.

Abby is a beat stick but super expensive and Chosen are also super expensive. If your set on getting Abby, get two squads of chosen and magnetize the guns for meltas and plasma. Then figure out how your going to get them in range to use them, then lament the fact that a LR has no fire ports and a Rhino has only 2 and GW are a bunch of morons for not giving Chaos Marines drop pods...again. Then realize your getting a bunch of Terminators as well (which will also be super expensive) to ride along with Abby either in a LR or via DS. You will quickly come to realize that outside the things I listed, you will not have a lot of points for other things, You will now be out-numbered and out-gunned at whatever point game you play (probably at least 1500pts). Did I mention Chosen are not Fearless? Yeah...that really blows, IoV for them as well. Enjoy.

Bikers and Terminators are the Chaos Deathstar. There are two problems with them though... each one really wants to have IoV to make them Fearless. Otherwise nothing will bring a gamer to tears faster than watching your deathstar with your HQ in it break and run off the board from losing 25% Turn 1 shooting because you rolled 11+ on Leadership. The other problem is that you might /really/ want your Mark Icon on them (IoE....) and now you have to really make this hard choice. This is why the Elite cult troop choices made into troops are soooooo awesome for Chaos. My troops are Fearless, they will not run, you have to kill every single one of them. Suck it.

I hope this answers your questions.

Yeah, pretty much...

The rules for ordinance weapons says, I think, 'non vehicle units' can't move and shoot. I don't have the rulebook in front of me but I think that's the case. So as far as I know, you can move and fire with the Battle Cannon on the Defiler, but the other weapons can only fire snap shots.

Defilers got better this edition but they still can get taken down rather fast, like has been mention before. They can be quite costly as well if you kit them out.

In close combat they are quite beastly, it's just getting there which an be tough. 3 attacks as standard, +1 for the secondary power claw and if you take a Power Scourge that's another +1, so 5 attacks. The Power Scourge also does -D3 weapon skill to your opponent which is pretty tasty

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The rules for ordinance weapons says, I think, 'non vehicle units' can't move and shoot. I don't have the rulebook in front of me but I think that's the case. So as far as I know, you can move and fire with the Battle Cannon on the Defiler, but the other weapons can only fire snap shots.

Defilers got better this edition but they still can get taken down rather fast, like has been mention before. They can be quite costly as well if you kit them out.

In close combat they are quite beastly, it's just getting there which an be tough. 3 attacks as standard, +1 for the secondary power claw and if you take a Power Scourge that's another +1, so 5 attacks. The Power Scourge also does -D3 weapon skill to your opponent which is pretty tasty

I have found defilers are good in CC oriented armies... 1 or 2 BC shots and then charge in... lose all the secondary weapons for CCW and the flail... The flail is high priced but reducing your opponent's WS is priceless! You will find it easier hitting him and he will find it harder hitting you!!! What is not to like?

But I will point out at that point you might as well take a Maulerfiend with two sets of Lasher Tendrils.

I will also mention I forgot/missed/something that the Chaos Lord and Abby are Fearless. Any unit they join is also Fearless. My mistake.

It comes down to how much you think a large template will make a difference... If not, yes go with maulerfiends...

Well I was actually thinking of getting a Forgefiend as my 3rd heavy support choice (the other 2 being a Land Raider and a Predator) with 2 Hades Autocannons. However the only real assaulty guys I have are a squad of six (custom made) Possessed CSM, So I guess getting a defiler might help a bit because it could defend the PCSM and help in assault to. Also I am just about to get a rhino and Abbadon (I have $40 (rhino) and I got good grades so my mom will buy me Abbadon.) So any comments or ways I could use abbadon and a rhino? Next thing I will get will definetly be Noise Marines for the rhino so any ideas? Warnings? Comments?

First off, good job on the grades and keep it up!

Just save the Rhino for when you start getting noise marines. If your skilled enough, you can get some Rare Earth magnets to be able to add anything you want to it for options, and thus not locking you into anything. Can always paint it a neutral color to use it for a lot of lists till you get more (I like 'primer grey' till I finially pick a home/army/get more).

Abby has only 3 options for delivery onto the board...
1) DS in
2) Land Raider
3) Walk

If you DS him in, you will want more Terminators to go with him to soak up shooting wounds. If you use a LR , this is probably the focal point of your army, as Abby and a LR alone is 485pts. You can throw in 4 more Terminator models to ride with him (a unit of 3-4 with maybe a Terminator HQ). Walking is the worse choice because he can't run... so he is going 6" a turn and it will take him 4 Turns just to get to the opponent's deployment zone. The DS and Walk options do allow you to give him large units to join him.

I believe Forge World or Games Workshop sell Noise marine kits, so you can probably get by with normal marines and the kits.

Well, what I was thinking was (for now) was putting Abby in the LR w/ the Possesed and putting my TS in the rhino (for now). then get the NM and throw them in the rhino. then I would get a termie squad and throw abby in w/ them. then after that I would either get a Heldrake or a Predator. that is my current goal right now. any ideas? comments? suggestions? CONSTRUCTIVE criticism?

*WARNING! IF YOU ARE A FAN OF PREDATORS PLEASE PUT YOUR FLAME SHIELDS UP, THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING...*

So, I was looking at the rules for a Predator, and I was comparing the autocannon and TL lascannon and i thought... WTCH! (What The Cheese Balls!). In other words, why are you people saying its amaazing?
Autocannon: Range: 48" Str: 6 AP: 4 Heavy-2, Not horrible as a heavy weapon but on a tank? horrible...
Lascannon: Range: 48" Str: 9 AP: 2 Heavy-1, Better, but even though its TL it doesnt make me want to get it, I mean like, I have TWO of those on my LR.
So the verdict: NO... I dont like the Predator... I would rather just get Obliterators and a Defiler and name it Defy. So why do you say Preds are good? Please explain...

 Georgefancy wrote:
*WARNING! IF YOU ARE A FAN OF PREDATORS PLEASE PUT YOUR FLAME SHIELDS UP, THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING...*

So, I was looking at the rules for a Predator, and I was comparing the autocannon and TL lascannon and i thought... WTCH! (What The Cheese Balls!). In other words, why are you people saying its amaazing?
Autocannon: Range: 48" Str: 6 AP: 4 Heavy-2, Not horrible as a heavy weapon but on a tank? horrible...
Lascannon: Range: 48" Str: 9 AP: 2 Heavy-1, Better, but even though its TL it doesnt make me want to get it, I mean like, I have TWO of those on my LR.
So the verdict: NO... I dont like the Predator... I would rather just get Obliterators and a Defiler and name it Defy. So why do you say Preds are good? Please explain...

Because the Predator Annihilator (full Lascannon) makes Lascannon spam easy for SM armies. And the AV 13 on the front can be hard to crack. Bringing three Predators with varied armaments allows SM armies to form a strong gun line where they normally would not be able to. They are cheaper than a Land Raider and can bring one more Lascannon than it, or be optimised for anti infantry better than the LR (unless you take the Crusader/Redeemer).

But, yeah, the Land Raider can beat out two of those in a ranged duel.

You are missing out on the variant of AC, 2 sponson LC which cost as much as 5 havocs and 4 AC.

AV13, 2 LC, 1 AC, mobile vs 5 MeQ, 4 AC
Pred needs to be glanced by S7 or S5 on the sides.
5 Havocs can die to small arms fire.

I would use full BS on one LC and pray for the snap shot of the AC and often times the other LC does not have LOS.
Most of the time I full BS the AC and laugh if I hit with the snap fired LC.

 Georgefancy wrote:
*WARNING! IF YOU ARE A FAN OF PREDATORS PLEASE PUT YOUR FLAME SHIELDS UP, THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING...*

So, I was looking at the rules for a Predator, and I was comparing the autocannon and TL lascannon and i thought... WTCH! (What The Cheese Balls!). In other words, why are you people saying its amaazing?
Autocannon: Range: 48" Str: 6 AP: 4 Heavy-2, Not horrible as a heavy weapon but on a tank? horrible...
Lascannon: Range: 48" Str: 9 AP: 2 Heavy-1, Better, but even though its TL it doesnt make me want to get it, I mean like, I have TWO of those on my LR.
So the verdict: NO... I dont like the Predator... I would rather just get Obliterators and a Defiler and name it Defy. So why do you say Preds are good? Please explain...

Apparently you haven't learned to read yet... that is not the right stats for the Auto Cannon.

420 for 9 lascannon shots 3 of them twinlinked or 460 points for 4 twin-linked lascannon shots...

For CSM, las preds or AC/las preds are good options for a fireline.

 BlkTom wrote:

 Georgefancy wrote:
*WARNING! IF YOU ARE A FAN OF PREDATORS PLEASE PUT YOUR FLAME SHIELDS UP, THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING...*

So, I was looking at the rules for a Predator, and I was comparing the autocannon and TL lascannon and i thought... WTCH! (What The Cheese Balls!). In other words, why are you people saying its amaazing?
Autocannon: Range: 48" Str: 6 AP: 4 Heavy-2, Not horrible as a heavy weapon but on a tank? horrible...
Lascannon: Range: 48" Str: 9 AP: 2 Heavy-1, Better, but even though its TL it doesnt make me want to get it, I mean like, I have TWO of those on my LR.
So the verdict: NO... I dont like the Predator... I would rather just get Obliterators and a Defiler and name it Defy. So why do you say Preds are good? Please explain...

Apparently you haven't learned to read yet... that is not the right stats for the Auto Cannon.

Im stupid. So its strength SEVEN. So its one better than six. so? I dont see how its better. but then again...I will have to see how my army flows...

Long term advice.

3 Magnetized predator= 3 Rhinos
3 Magnetized vindicator = 3 Rhinos
3 more Rhinos for when you want 3 predators/vindicators and to field 6 troops in 6 rhinos. You then only buy 9 tanks.

Compared to buying 6 solid rhinos, then 3 solid predators, and 3 solid vindicators which means 12 tanks.

So what I am trying to say is, buy a predator/vindicator and magnetize it so you can also use it as a rhino when you chose a different heavy support slot. Also do not throw away the razor back hatch as you can also transform your rhinos into razor back if you chose to switch to regular space marines.

I use preds when I have troops in rhinos. I pair them up so that both backs face each other and the pred is out in front. The rhino moves backwards essentially but that does not matter.

I think predators are great in low point games below 2kpts. After 2k, I would like to use full squads of obliterators, Defilers, 10-20 man havocs, and maybe fiends.

Heldrakes , obliterators , cultist nominated zombies by a Typhus HQ and plague marines are the best units in the codex ( the Heldrake is the best flyer in the game )

DAaddict wrote:
420 for 9 lascannon shots 3 of them twinlinked or 460 points for 4 twin-linked lascannon shots...

For CSM, las preds or AC/las preds are good options for a fireline.

3/9 TL/LC among 3 preds vs 4 TL LC and 2 HB that carry a total of 20 men in AV14.

If you only wanted LC then get 3 predators.

For 40pts more, you can instead get 2 mobile fortress losing 6 LC but gaining 1 more TL LC and 2 HB. However, if you want to use Land Raiders you should play other Space Marine armies since they have the crusader, redeemer, other varients etc... and they have PoTMS, and they have much more benefits for LR compared to the bare bone CSM LR.

I wish I can do more with my CSM LR. Sadly I usually do not even run it.

If you already have one then I would use it and 2 predators. And let it carry your assault units.

I wish I could take 3 squads of Termi, with 3 dedicated LR, then 3 squads of KB in it, then 3 More LR with 3 more squads of KB in them. That would put me over the 3k level.

 mk2 wrote:
Heldrakes , obliterators , cultist nominated zombies by a Typhus HQ and plague marines are the best units in the codex ( the Heldrake is the best flyer in the game )

I can't disagree with this, personally.

I believe that most competitive armies have prepared itself to fight 2-3 heldrakes.

I also think most flyers are made to dog fight other flyers for the sake of air superiority/ defense.

Oblits need to shoot that LC at the tank from 48" and then on the next turn shoot PC at the nearest 36". There is no weapon that is also 48" in the obliterator arsenal. Assault Cannon and TL Plasma are 24"

I feel that it should have had Auto Cannons, and heavy bolters.

Zombies can not run they only travel 30" so you really need to start them as far forward as possible.

Plague Marines have been solid in 5th and continues to endure in 6th. T5 and FNP have been such a blessing for CSM. My opponents dust off their vindicators since the S10 causes ID and it also is ap2. I laugh when I drive my Plague Marines in rhinos up to the vindicators and melt it. Other times they laugh as they completely destroy all my plague marines.

Okay... well first off I will NOT get Plague Marines. I just dont entirely see the full effect of them. plus I am going to try to keep this on a single FoG so I cant even get them if I am going to get termies and Noise Marines. and honestly, I dont really like Nurgles stuff anyways... Yeah the MoN gives you +1 toughness and thats nice, but I just REALLY dont like Plague Marines . Also what are these "zombies" you guys are talking about? And I also have NO IDEA how to magnetize stuff and even if I did I would probably fail...

Have you tried Plague Marines?

If you have, what was it that you did not like so I can make a better recommendation.

It is really easy to magnetize tanks since you really do not need the expensive rare earth magnets. Look for a tutorial on youtube. PM me if you need further instruction. I maybe able to find my camera and take pics of my magnetized predators.