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Dakka,

I'm preparing for my second game playing Dark Angels, and I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts on the following list; thanks very much in advance!

Belial and the Deathwing squads will most likely deathwing assault deep strike in on turn 1; the three small squads with heavy weapons are for fire support from my deployment zone; the command squad will be in the land raider; and the large tactical squad and veteran squad are for midfield support. Games at our store have a great deal of ruins available for placement, so my games tend to be very cover heavy - both for my backfield as well as for dropping the termies in on scoring troops holding objectives in their deployment zone.

HQ:
Belial with Lightning Claws

Troops:
Deathwing Terminator Squad (5) with Heavy Flamer
Deathwing Terminator Squad (5) with Heavy Flamer
Tactical Squad (10) with Flamer, Chainsword
Tactical Squad (5) with Heavy Bolter

Heavy:
Devastator Squad (5) - 3x Missile Launcher with Flakk missiles
Devastator Squad (5) - 2x Lascannon
Land Raider (Godshammer pattern)

Elite:
Company Veterans Squad (5) - 3x Storm Shield, 1x Plasma Gun

HQ (Command Squad):
Command Squad - 1 Storm Bolter, 1 Combi-Flamer, 1 Power Fist and Bolter, 1 Power Fist and Storm Bolter, 1 Power Weapon

1696 points, leaving me with 154 available.

Cheers,

V

A little bit all over the place...

Not sure how competitive you're playing but here's what I would change:

Belial: either get the TH/SS version for resiliency and CC goodness or SB/PS for fleshbane and precision shots

Your troop choices are decent but I would throw a heavy weapon in the 10-man squad and get some transports for the tacticals for objective grabbing.

No issues with your devastators, maybe get an ADL with quad gun for AA?

Vets and command squad: what are you using them for??? I don't really see the point of taking a command squad if you're not gonna field one of the banners, similarly the vets with 3 SS and a single PG and no transport, what are they gonna do? You could have a PG platform with the command squad or a bunch of combi-weapons in the vets...


Or you could scrap both units and get more DW termies or some RW bikes.

Just some thoughts, hope it helps.

1696 points, leaving me with 154 available.

Couple off things... you are leaving points on the table.... If you want a DW focus, I would love to add one more squad or combined one squad and add another. A librarian to take advantage of divination - prescience + devestators = win. I think you might be better served by taking an ADL + Quad Gun... put the Missile Launchers on it and Prescience it... Lose the flakk rounds... so you have 3 snap fire missiles and 4 quad gun shots... if you need to hit it, you can prescience it. Comand squad as a counter attack unit? Lose iit and go with a DW command squad.

Belial - 190
Librarian - Auspex 70
DW Cmd Squad - Champion, Chainfist, Assault Cannon 250
DW Squad -10 - 2x Chainfist, 2 x Heavy Flamer 470
Tactical - 5 - Heavy Bolter, 80
Tactical - 5 - Heavy Bolter 80
Tactical - 5 - Plasma Cannon 85
RW - 3 - Bikes (w 2 Melta) 100
Devastator - 5 - 3 Missile Launcher 100
Devastator - 5 - 2 Lascannon 110
Landraider - MM 250
Fort - ADL + Icarus 85

1870 - The easy drop is the two Meltas from the bikes... not as good but liveable...

Libarian sits back in the ADL with the two devastators and 3 tacticals... Prescience on whatever you need to hit with... I would put the Lascannon squad on the Icarus so you have 3 S9 shots, one at BS 5. The DW command squad sets up in the Landraider and moves forward. Meanwhile Belial and the monster 10-man squad precision drops next to the big troop concentration... 2 TL heavy flamers into the close squad and then 9 stormbolters into another squad.. Twin-linked so they should both put the hurt on their targets... The bikes ( if you can find a way to afford the meltas) scout move forward and beat the snot out of a vehicle...

As an alternate, you can use the bikes to precision strike in with the DW command squad. Another option would be to lose the bikes and add another Tactical with say a MM or ML or HB.

Makes sense to me, thanks for the feedback! You're being kind, its massively "all over the place", not just a little.

I see what you mean on Belial, the master crafted on the sword is almost as good as the "twin linked" from the claws, but adds fleshbane and a shooting weapon. TH/SS of course can never be argued with!

I've been pondering the transports and I think this is the most difficult decision I have to make -- rhinos, razorbacks, or drop pods? All seem to have strong pros and cons.

Adding a heavy weapon to the 10 man squad would depend upon whether they take a rhino or not - this squad is intended to be mobile and not having to stand still to fire the heavy weapon is a bonus.

I'm hesitant about the ADL -- it seems like a lot of points for the gun; the cover aspect seems underwhelming in an environment where ruins are plentiful. Or am I underestimating its usefulness?

The vets and command squads certainly are by far the weakest links. They are the only legal squads I can make with those models, so perhaps it's best if they gathered some dust for another edition.

Dropping them would leave me with 470 points to spare, which can accomplish quite a bit!

Regards,

V

The ADL provides 4++ cover or 2++ cover if you go to ground... It is nice for that alone. While high-priced, the Icarus or Quad Gun is the real reason to take it. Flakk missiles are underwhelming at best for anti-air. Really the big PITA flyers are Vendettas and Heldrakes, bothe AV 12.

So let's do a comparison:

A. 5 Devastators with 4 Flakk Missiles - 170B
B. 5 Devastators with 4 Krak Missiles- 130
C. 5 Devastators with 4 Lascannons 150
D. ADL + Quadgun 100
E. ADL + Icarus 85

A. 2.67 hits. .44 Pens 7% Kill chance...
B. .67(1.22 hits) .22(.41 Pens) 3% (7%) Kill Chance
C. .67(1.22 hits) .33(.61 Pens) 11%(20%) Kill chance
D. 3.56 hits .59 pens 10% Kill Chance
E. .67(.89 hits) .33(.45 pens) 11%(15%) Kill chance...

So if we want to smoke a Heldrake or Vendetta...
170 points for a 7% chance of killing it. (Flakk Missiles)
130 points for a 3%(7%) chance of killing it. (Krak Missiles)
150 points for a 11%(20%) chance of killing it. (Lascannons)
To that we can add an ADL.
100 points for additional 10% chance of killing it (Quad gun)
85 points for additional 11%(15%) chance of killing it. (Icarus)

(The number in parenthesis is by adding a Prescience Librarian)

So if I am worried about the big pains - Heldrake/Vendetta - for
290 points I can have a 35% chance of killing the darn thing
Whereas fo 170 points - with Flak missiles - I get a whopping 7% chance of killing it... Very underwhelming. If you are worried about anti-air, I would almost recommend a Nephilim over the flakk missiles and we all know the angst being shared about the Nephilim.

A quad gun is superior to the Icarus against any AV 11 or less flyer... So if you knew you were facing Necrons or really any non-CSM/Guard i would take the quad gun.

The real illuminating part of this exercise was that you really want lascannons instead of flakk missiles to truly affect flyers - unless you want to glance it to death. AP 2 really makes that big of a difference!!!

BTW, the other thought I had with this , is you could go with a Deathwing Knights to work with the Ravenwing bikes.... A lot cheaper and gets you the points for the melta guns...

DAaddict wrote:
1696 points, leaving me with 154 available.

Couple off things... you are leaving points on the table.... If you want a DW focus, I would love to add one more squad or combined one squad and add another. A librarian to take advantage of divination - prescience + devestators = win. I think you might be better served by taking an ADL + Quad Gun... put the Missile Launchers on it and Prescience it... Lose the flakk rounds... so you have 3 snap fire missiles and 4 quad gun shots... if you need to hit it, you can prescience it. Comand squad as a counter attack unit? Lose iit and go with a DW command squad.

Belial - 190
Librarian - Auspex 70
DW Cmd Squad - Champion, Chainfist, Assault Cannon 250
DW Squad -10 - 2x Chainfist, 2 x Heavy Flamer 470
Tactical - 5 - Heavy Bolter, 80
Tactical - 5 - Heavy Bolter 80
Tactical - 5 - Plasma Cannon 85
RW - 3 - Bikes (w 2 Melta) 100
Devastator - 5 - 3 Missile Launcher 100
Devastator - 5 - 2 Lascannon 110
Landraider - MM 250
Fort - ADL + Icarus 85

1870 - The easy drop is the two Meltas from the bikes... not as good but liveable...

Libarian sits back in the ADL with the two devastators and 3 tacticals... Prescience on whatever you need to hit with... I would put the Lascannon squad on the Icarus so you have 3 S9 shots, one at BS 5. The DW command squad sets up in the Landraider and moves forward. Meanwhile Belial and the monster 10-man squad precision drops next to the big troop concentration... 2 TL heavy flamers into the close squad and then 9 stormbolters into another squad.. Twin-linked so they should both put the hurt on their targets... The bikes ( if you can find a way to afford the meltas) scout move forward and beat the snot out of a vehicle...

As an alternate, you can use the bikes to precision strike in with the DW command squad. Another option would be to lose the bikes and add another Tactical with say a MM or ML or HB.

Thanks, DA! I took so long typing my first response that you had already replied before I finished it.

The list you provided is certainly a dramatic improvement over the original.

I certainly see the point on the lascannons when fishing for kills rather than hull points -- and the extra +1 cover save from the ADL is nice if going to ground (except against Tau).

The librarian is a fantastic suggestion, appreciated, I will definitely go that route (likewise the MM on the LR); and I'm sold on dropping the command squad and the veterans.

I like the idea of more terminators -- would it make sense to include a few TH/SS models to "tank" at the front of the squad with their 3++? It does cut down on firepower though, the obvious trade off.

I've never been a fan of the bike models, but I do very much like the new DV bikes - I should pick up 3 or 6.

My shopping list would then look something like:
ADL
Terminators
Devastators (I only have the six heavy weapons right now)
DV bikes

Regards,

V


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick question -- the Auspex seems popular; with a 12" range, do folks find that it's used often?

I like the idea of more terminators -- would it make sense to include a few TH/SS models to "tank" at the front of the squad with their 3++? It does cut down on firepower though, the obvious trade off.

Seeing as it costs you points and loses firepower, I am not sold on them especially if you are planning on deepstriking them in.
A chainfist costs the same, doesn't lose the firepower. So the only reason to take them is the 3++ save. I think -at most- add 1 but seeing you can't auto put wounds on it, I think its value is lessened. I guess I would rather take the chainfist and keep the stormbolter.

I think if I were worried about survival, I might just add a DW Knights squad. 235 as opposed to 245 for a squad of regular termies with TH + SS. The knights can drop 4 S10 hits or 12 S6 AP 4 attacks plus 3 S6 AP3 attacks plus they are all T5 in addition to having the 3++ save for the Stormshield.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, if you lose the DW command squad and the auspex, you have the points to add back the meltas to the RW squad if you take a DW Knight squad...

Excellent point, thanks.

So for now, I would be looking at running this list at 1450 points as follows, until I get my shopping and painting done:

HQ:
Belial with Lightning Claws
Librarian with Auspex

Troops:
Deathwing Terminator Squad (5) with Heavy Flamer
Deathwing Terminator Squad (5) with Heavy Flamer
Tactical Squad (10) with Flamer, Chainsword
Tactical Squad (5) with Heavy Bolter

Heavy:
Devastator Squad (5) - 3x Missile Launcher with Flakk missiles
Devastator Squad (5) - 2x Lascannon
Land Raider (Godshammer pattern)

1450 on the nose.

Cheers,

V

Are there DA melta gun bikes available? I have been looking but have not yet seen anything!

Thanks,

V

In every RW bike squad, 2 guys can carry a special weapon plus of course the sergeant can take a combi-weapon... Plus for every bike squad you can add a MM attack bike... So if you have the points, 165 gets you 3 Bikes (2 w Melta, Sgt w Combi-melta) and one Attack Bike with MM... Very awesome with RW scout move pre-game or outflanking...

DAaddict wrote:
Meanwhile Belial and the monster 10-man squad precision drops next to the big troop concentration... 2 TL heavy flamers into the close squad and then 9 stormbolters into another squad.. Twin-linked so they should both put the hurt on their targets... The bikes ( if you can find a way to afford the meltas) scout move forward and beat the snot out of a vehicle...

Sadly, only 1 model within the unit can split fire.
This has created, for me, the eternal question of do I bring two 5-man squads so I can split fire both heavy weapons or do I do a 10-man squad so Belial can place them all precisely.
Lately I've been using a Heavy Flamer and a CML in my 10-man squads so they can hop on top of an important infantry unit, demolish it with TL HF and SB fire, and have a solid chance at taking out some valuable armor at the same time.

DAaddict wrote:
In every RW bike squad, 2 guys can carry a special weapon plus of course the sergeant can take a combi-weapon... Plus for every bike squad you can add a MM attack bike... So if you have the points, 165 gets you 3 Bikes (2 w Melta, Sgt w Combi-melta) and one Attack Bike with MM... Very awesome with RW scout move pre-game or outflanking...

Apologies, I should have been clearer - I am looking to find the models, I know I can take them once I find some and paint them up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rosinator wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
Meanwhile Belial and the monster 10-man squad precision drops next to the big troop concentration... 2 TL heavy flamers into the close squad and then 9 stormbolters into another squad.. Twin-linked so they should both put the hurt on their targets... The bikes ( if you can find a way to afford the meltas) scout move forward and beat the snot out of a vehicle...

Sadly, only 1 model within the unit can split fire.
This has created, for me, the eternal question of do I bring two 5-man squads so I can split fire both heavy weapons or do I do a 10-man squad so Belial can place them all precisely.
Lately I've been using a Heavy Flamer and a CML in my 10-man squads so they can hop on top of an important infantry unit, demolish it with TL HF and SB fire, and have a solid chance at taking out some valuable armor at the same time.

Thanks, this is an excellent suggestion. A big unit of 10 with two heavy flamers will probably overkill whatever they land next to, it would be good to have an option to snipe with a CML or AC.

rosinator wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
Meanwhile Belial and the monster 10-man squad precision drops next to the big troop concentration... 2 TL heavy flamers into the close squad and then 9 stormbolters into another squad.. Twin-linked so they should both put the hurt on their targets... The bikes ( if you can find a way to afford the meltas) scout move forward and beat the snot out of a vehicle...

Sadly, only 1 model within the unit can split fire.
This has created, for me, the eternal question of do I bring two 5-man squads so I can split fire both heavy weapons or do I do a 10-man squad so Belial can place them all precisely.
Lately I've been using a Heavy Flamer and a CML in my 10-man squads so they can hop on top of an important infantry unit, demolish it with TL HF and SB fire, and have a solid chance at taking out some valuable armor at the same time.

That's exactly how I run my 10-man squad of Terminators as well to absolutely devastating effect. A twin-linked Heavy Flamer precisely dropped to maximize it's potential is positively brutal against any army (not to mention Overwatch fun).