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Hi dudes and dudettes. I'm relatively new to 40k (last played in 1997 or so). I'd like your opinion on really hard counters for tau (or any other competitive gunline lists that like to hang to the back of the board).

Lists with lots of Deep Strike and Infiltrate works.

How do you stay alive after the deep strike? I mean before you get to assault?


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And on that account - what are the most competitive TAC assault/infiltrate lists?


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C'mon. Opinions? Ideas? Especially looking for all marine anti-tau tactics (C:SM, BA, DA, GK, BT, SW + allies) and chaos marines aswell.

Well, nominally you'd figure out a way to alpha strike anything with the Interceptor rule. I don't recall which Tau models have this.

Then, you can work on infiltrating/deep striking stuff.

This is a C:SM Vulkan list that I've always thought was pretty sweet. I've not seen it up against the new Tau, but I suspect that it'll do pretty well:

vulkan
dread- mm, heavy flamer, drop pod, locator beacon
dread- mm, heavy flamer,drop pod, locator beacon
5x terminators- TH/SS
tac squad- mm, melta, combi-melta, drop pod
tac squad- mm, melta, combi-melta, drop pod
tac squad- mm, flamer,combi-flamer, drop pod
tac squad- mm, flamer, combi-flamer, drop pod
2x land speeders- mm, heavy flamers
2x land speeders- mm, heavy flamers
2x land speeders- mm, heavy flamers

This is a 5th Ed. list, but with minimal changes I believe it should still work quite nicely. I think that's in the ballpark of 1500 points. Season to taste.


SW also have some pretty good Drop Pod lists as well, and their Wolf Scouts can usually do some damage by infiltrating, too.

Additionally, I suspect that a Daemons list with lots of Flamers of Tzeentch will wreck face against the Tau.

I guess that list can go pretty much toetotoe with any army, thanks. I do though have some doubs if that army can beat serious 'nid or similar assault lists on its own. I mean you drop pod, you shoot some and get assaulted in return by superheavy hitter units/MCs.



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Nevermind, I especailly asked for anti-gunline tactics, so ignore the previous post regarding the nids and other assault armies.


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Any idea how do you do it with chaos marines?

My Tau list has three Riptides with Ion Accelerators and Interceptor, and a unit of Broadsides also with Interceptor, so anything deep striking or arriving from reserve is going to have a bad time.

I'd imagine a really fast chaos daemons list might be tough to handle with FMC and turn 2 assaults via dogs/seekers who may or may not have some sort of 2+ invul save from grimore of true names could be kind of bad for tau gunlines. That and wraiths+destroyer lord getting in by turn 2 ish could be trouble too even with riptides.

Yeah, a drop pod list is actually the reverse of what you want. It's almost impossible to win with it, since you're giving them what amounts to an extra shooting phase.

 forrestfire wrote:
Yeah, a drop pod list is actually the reverse of what you want. It's almost impossible to win with it, since you're giving them what amounts to an extra shooting phase.

Yes but then they can't shoot in their own shooting phase anyway because of the interceptor rule, so they wont be getting 2 shooting phases, just at different timing.

For gk: 3 dreadknights with teleporters and heavy incinerators, 3 10 man interceptors, mix of psycannons and incinerators. Mordrak with ghost knights and libby, strike squads.

First turn will have 3 mc's and 30 marines, 7 termies in the tau gunline, because of teleporters, wont get to use interceptor on them. Psycannons car rear armour tanks, and then the S7 flamer templates will murder parthfinders, kroot, firewarriors.

Then hope you have a dreadknight or 2 leftover to charge in turn 2.

Scarbrand wrote:
How do you stay alive after the deep strike? I mean before you get to assault?

Sometimes, you don't. That's why you make sure you make good use of your Sternguard before they die. For example, podding in 310 points of Sternguard, combat squading, and blowing up more than 300 points worth of vehicles and infantry. Or, you can get them in a spot where they can kill something via rapid fire and be safe due to LoS, or simply weather the storm with cover or your 3+ and try to run or gate away with a librarian. A single surviving Sternguard can still contest objectives on the final turn of the game, so as long as one guy gets away, your squad is still useful. But drop podded Sternguard are pretty much a suicide unit.

Scarbrand wrote:
And on that account - what are the most competitive TAC assault/infiltrate lists?

For assault, take Tyberos the Red Wake for your HQ. He replaces Combat Tactics for Furious Charge, and if you gain First Blood, you also gain Rage for your chapter tactics in addition to Furious Charge. All bolters in your army can be replaced with a chainsword and bolt pistol, and you may take one squad of Lightning Claw Terminators as a troop option.

For Infiltrate, simply run a foot list with no dedicated transports and Ahazra Redth as your HQ.

Land Raiders are another option against Tau. Railheads aren't very common, and most lists rely on Longstrike for their anti-armor needs. The rest of the anti-armor is covered either by melta, or S7 autocannon spam which can't hurt Land Raiders. Novacharged ion accelerator shots might be a concern, but if they're novacharged then the riptides save is only 5++.. They also can't fire on the Land Raider in the shooting phase after they intercept a deep striking unit.

In short, AV14 is much more effective against Tau than it used to be. Fusion suits are your primary concern.

Also not to mention that nova-charging has a 1/3 chance of failing and auto wounding with no saves on the Riptide AND the ion accelerator then (if successful) has a 1/6 chance of derping and over-heating. Basically a rip tide will fail 4/9 nova-charge ion accelerator shots, with a half decent chance of it losing a wound. (My apologies if my math-hammer was off slightly, been a while since I played with probability/fractions, and I've been doing data entry all day).

So AV14 is pretty safe unless there are lots of rail heads. Which, with the changes to broadsides, seems to not be happening. I concur - that longstrike is probably the biggest gun you should fear.

For Chaos, lots of Nurgle, Plague Marines are your friends, also, against the bigger guns, 1k sons are also good and their ap3 ammo cuts through suits easily. Both of these units soak up fire easily.

However, on the counter attack, Berzerkers in a Land Raider, or 2, and if you want to go all the way with Khorne, take Kharn and stick him in a Land Raider with the zerkers and then split them apart so you have two chances on your assault move and either unit will rip up nearly all the units in the Tau 'dex easily.

9 MoN oblits is a nightmare for most tau lists. They blow broadsides up ( so your Heldrakes can roast all their troops in peace) and nothing in the Tau army does much to them.

A bumrush of beasts. DE, nurgle csm chas spawn, or better yet 30 fiends of slaneesh. 100% of the remaining cav/beast units of a fiend heavy slaneesh army will be in cc on turn 2. Tau have a lot of dakka, but it takes more than 2 shooting phases to win.

AS a marine DS thunderhammer+SS and there is a really good odds you will start eating back feild units.

Another solid tactic is to use Podded Furioso Dreds with the Flak cannon and a heavy flamer... they will be suicide units true, but with careful placement you can destroy a large portion of a Tau's markerlight count and possibly entire units in one shot. And with armor 13 there is a much lower chance of being stunned/destroyed on the drop.

And, while not a common thought, you could always go with a min squad of Vanguard Vets. Great for tying up both Tau and DA command squads in the back field as well as making IG cry.

SaganGree wrote:
Another solid tactic is to use Podded Furioso Dreds with the Flak cannon and a heavy flamer... they will be suicide units true, but with careful placement you can destroy a large portion of a Tau's markerlight count and possibly entire units in one shot. And with armor 13 there is a much lower chance of being stunned/destroyed on the drop.

Not to mention the fact that it'd be a lot more resistant to Iontides with Interceptor. Think this and the GK teleporta list above are going to be the hardest counters for foot gunline Tau.

Mawlocs might be an interesting choice for 'Nids.

 Jabbdo wrote:
9 MoN oblits is a nightmare for most tau lists. They blow broadsides up ( so your Heldrakes can roast all their troops in peace) and nothing in the Tau army does much to them.

It isn't that bad. Take a few drones to eat some of the high str weaponry and GTG in ruins for a 2+ then snap shot. And since oblits cant use the same weapon 2 turns in a row it isnt the worst thing ever. 9 of them average 5 Lascannon wounds and that might kill 1 drone in a ruin, maybe 2 drones in regular area. Just gotta be smart about how you place and what not to mitigate their damage.

I played vs 6 MoN oblits and 3 Drakes yesterday. I killed all but one Oblit, lost 0/6 Broadsides and killed all 3 Drakes.

syranas wrote:
Also not to mention that nova-charging has a 1/3 chance of failing and auto wounding with no saves on the Riptide AND the ion accelerator then (if successful) has a 1/6 chance of derping and over-heating. Basically a rip tide will fail 4/9 nova-charge ion accelerator shots, with a half decent chance of it losing a wound. (My apologies if my math-hammer was off slightly, been a while since I played with probability/fractions, and I've been doing data entry all day).

So AV14 is pretty safe unless there are lots of rail heads. Which, with the changes to broadsides, seems to not be happening. I concur - that longstrike is probably the biggest gun you should fear.

Your mathhammer seemed good. You just don't know the unit. A lot of people don't and give all these situations that will never happen/don't make sense. I know the codex is new so let me educate so you don't get blindsided. The Ion Accelerator has 3 firing profiles. Regular 3 shots, and an Overcharged Pie plate which is STR8 AP2 Gets Hot. All Ion weapons can overcharge. THEN on top of that it can NOVA-charge for STR9 AP2 Ordnance. So it can drop pie plates without Nova-charging is my point. Pretty much reserve Nova-charging the weapon for parking lots. So it has a 1/6 chance of failing an Ion shot because there is no need to really Nova-charge it. But, Tau markerlights can boost BS to 5+, so 3 ML hits and the Riptide is BS6 and can re-roll that Gets Hot roll(Also reduce scatter). Or there is Shadowsun who lets a unit re-roll 1s.

Out of everything mentioned, as a tau player, I would most fear the sterngaurd spam. Melta is too common for me to be afraid of a few land raiders, and anything that can't charge me the turn it arrives is going to have a harder time than you think getting into CC.

When you are making your plans, don't forget using interceptor does not prevent using overwatch, and supporting fire can maul your CC units.

infiltrators may well be the best way to bypass all the neat ways the Tau can blow you up from reserve.

the new codex provides ininite variety, but assuming someone ikes a lot of Fire Warriors (and that seems to be a common theme in comments im reading) then infiltrating in might work well. But if they go another route its a whole other ball game.

Personally the best answer I can think of against Tau is Artillery. It solves so many Tau poblems. I say this as a dyed-in-the-wool Tau player.

 forrestfire wrote:
Yeah, a drop pod list is actually the reverse of what you want. It's almost impossible to win with it, since you're giving them what amounts to an extra shooting phase.

I'm not sure I buy this. If you're playing any sort of close range Army, Tau are going to get a round of shooting at you anyway. You might as well get it all out of the way initially, then whatever you have left when the smoke clears is 4 inches from him.

Besides, with inertial guidance and a 6 inch disembark, you can make the Riptide pie plate a very risky intercept option. Not that three AP 2 shots is anything to sneeze it, but at BS3 it's not the END of the world.

anonymou5 wrote:

 forrestfire wrote:
Yeah, a drop pod list is actually the reverse of what you want. It's almost impossible to win with it, since you're giving them what amounts to an extra shooting phase.

I'm not sure I buy this. If you're playing any sort of close range Army, Tau are going to get a round of shooting at you anyway. You might as well get it all out of the way initially, then whatever you have left when the smoke clears is 4 inches from him.

Besides, with inertial guidance and a 6 inch disembark, you can make the Riptide pie plate a very risky intercept option. Not that three AP 2 shots is anything to sneeze it, but at BS3 it's not the END of the world.

Tau players have been bubblewrapping their foot gunlines with Kroot for this very reason in order to to make it more difficult to deepstrike closer to the power units. Now Kroot can overwatch with sniper rifles and pick up LD and buffs from an ethereal to stick around a little longer while the Tau reposition.

Its not a surefire protection, but experienced players have been doing this for awhile already. I honestly think that mech Tau is eventually what Tau primary players will settle into eventually.

Tau players have been bubblewrapping their foot gunlines with Kroot for this very reason in order to to make it more difficult to deepstrike closer to the power units. Now Kroot can overwatch with sniper rifles and pick up LD and buffs from an ethereal to stick around a little longer while the Tau reposition.

Its not a surefire protection, but experienced players have been doing this for awhile already. I honestly think that mech Tau is eventually what Tau primary players will settle into eventually.

I think I'm derailing this thread a little bit, because I don't think Deep Strike Armies are a "hard counter" to new-Tau (I think that may be DA with two LRCs, Dakka Banner, Power field generator, and some riding Termies), but I don't think they're screwed either.

(warning, theory hammer ahead) Let's say Tau is well bubble wrapped, as described, and I'm running something like this list:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/519176.page

I can put down two empty pods, and drop two GH squads on midfield objectives (which I gurantee you I will place at least one of my objectives midfield). Now I'm forcing the Tau player to either commit to his bubble wrap, or come out and play. (I could also put down hte flamer/heavy flamer team and attempt to pop the bubble wrap). If he commits, turn 2 I can either go for the delayed alpha strike or just play the objectives entirely. If I do drop my remaining three pods, Tau now has to choose whether to use his intercept on my ground forces, or the two Vendettas that showed up. 40k is all about forcing hard decisions. Alternatively, I can hold the melta squad (using the Comms relay) back a turn or two, and wait for a good target to show up, or force further bubble wrapping.

A good pod Army can force the enemy to stay in their deployment zone for half the game, and allow the rest of the Army to take objectives. It's not all about "put all guns on table turn 1 and cross your fingers)

That said, I by no means think a pod army is a guranteed win against new-Tau, but it's also not a guaranteed loss.

Infiltrate is a better counter.

A lot of Tau units can take early warning override for just 5 points. That effectively makes them able to shoot at units coming of drop pods before those drop pod units even get to shoot. In fact, I think Tau has some of the best counters to a drop pod army.