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2013/04/14 20:59:01
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
Hehehe, I knew Jy2 would come over to the FMC lists sooner or later. It's just one of the more effective builds coupled with seekers/hounds and portaglyph.
I do like the soul grinder synergy with the list though. I don't run one of those but I can see how it can be very useful still. May have to give that a go.
Personally, I'm still torn between having a LoC + bloodthirster for my HQ's or going with a Shooty fateweaver + heralds + grimore set up on the main. So far having alot of fun with 3 princesses (mine are chicks) but I may have to give the soul grinder a try.
+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
2013/04/14 23:16:27
Subject: Re:Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
Ok, here are the lists (and my powers and rewards):
Game #1 - 1750 Tzeentch/Slaanesh Daemons vs Captn Dee's Tau
1750 Daemons
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, Wings, 2x Greater - Hellfire Gaze, FNP 4+, Perfect Timing, Forewarning, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Warlord Trait - Re-roll Daemonic Instability
Tzeentch Herald - Lvl 3, Exalted, Loci of Conjuration - Grimoire of True Names, Perfect Timing, Prescience, Flickering Fire
Tzeentch Herald - Lvl 3, Exalted, Loci of Conjuration - Portaglyph, Forewarning, Prescience, Flickering Fire
16x Pink Horrors
16x Pink Horrors
15x Seekers of Slaanesh
Daemon Prince - Lvl 3, Tzeentch, 3+, Wings, 2x Greater - Fleshbane/Armourbane, 4+ FNP, Enfeeble, Life Leech, Flickering Fire
Soulgrinder - Slaanesh, Baleful Torrent
Soulgrinder - Tzeentch, Phlegm
1750 Tau
This is an approximation of his list from what I can recall.
Commander - 2+, T5, 2x Marker Drones
Ethereal
3x Crisis Suits - TL-Missiles
6x Stealth suits
10x Fire Warriors
10x Fire Warriors
10x Fire Warriors
20x Kroots
Gunline/ADL Tau dont seem to be faring very well, it would seem a more mech heavy/hybrid list would play better in 6th. I dont think firewarriors have enough staying power to have a large firebase sit still.
2013/04/15 00:14:31
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
sudojoe wrote: Hehehe, I knew Jy2 would come over to the FMC lists sooner or later. It's just one of the more effective builds coupled with seekers/hounds and portaglyph.
I do like the soul grinder synergy with the list though. I don't run one of those but I can see how it can be very useful still. May have to give that a go.
Personally, I'm still torn between having a LoC + bloodthirster for my HQ's or going with a Shooty fateweaver + heralds + grimore set up on the main. So far having alot of fun with 3 princesses (mine are chicks) but I may have to give the soul grinder a try.
Daemon FMC-spam is definitely strong, but I wouldn't say that it is the most competitive daemon build, at least not just yet. It is still too early to tell. Daemon FMC-spam reminds me of the old 5th Edition Draigowing builds. It is an intentionally unbalanced army designed to crush the opponent. However, it's got some hard counters and is really reliant on variables out of the control of the daemon player. You can't really control which rewards and psychic powers you get. And if just 1 FMC gets grounded early, there's a very good chance you just may lose it and have to play with a handicap. But when it's working, it is definitely very hard to play against.
I like the grinder for its resiliency, its flexibility and because it is another huge threat. I also use it to protect my fragile troops. People are going to think twice about going after my troops when there is a soulgrinder there. As a matter of fact, I prefer to run 2 grinders like in my game #1, but I was just experimenting with FMC-spamming in game #2 and could only afford to get 1.
After trying out the LOC, he is now my favorite greater daemon. I don't think I can go back to the bloodthirster anymore unless I'm playing a casual game. Psychic powers make the LOC a huge force-multiplier over the thirster and Flickering Fire makes it a dangerous shooter as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mothman_451 wrote: Gunline/ADL Tau dont seem to be faring very well, it would seem a more mech heavy/hybrid list would play better in 6th. I dont think firewarriors have enough staying power to have a large firebase sit still.
I wouldn't discount them so quickly. It's only been less than 2 weeks and most people are still using their "5th edition" Tau lists. This was the first time ever my opponent has played the new Tau and he was only using what he already owned. Honestly, I think the new Tau are VERY GOOD. Just give them some time and you will see them do well in tournaments.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/15 02:31:43
Oh i agree that the Tau will be a strong army, and currently a lot of people are restricted to what models they have. But with all of the mobility available to the army, i wouldnt be surprised to see a heavier focus sway to those strengths.
2013/04/15 04:35:14
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
One of the strengths of the Tau is the synergy between the Ethereal, pulse gun shooting and markerlights. I see this as the early pre-eminent Tau build. However, as people take more barrage weapons in their lists, that may change.
BTW, Dan played Frankie's Thunderdome SW list also in a round-robin type of game (we each played 2 games). Let's just say that Frankie conceded after Turn 3 (4?). I was lucky with my daemons, and maybe they matchup well against Tau with their mobility, but I admit that I am afraid of Tau shooting. It's going to get worse once he optimizes his list more and get a couple of Riptides in there.
Jy2 in you first list where you have the heralds i think you should test the hounds with Karanak, this is defininetely a killer.
Tbh i don't like the monstrous creature spam, they have indeed some hard counters, Necrons will be one of them with all the S7 shots they can muster, and they have flyers enough to either kill or force grounding.
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/04/15 09:16:52
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
Perfect timing cannot be cast on other units can it?
40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/ 06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final
2013/04/15 11:21:55
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
Any chance we can see equipment of those Lords, always intresting to see those small things you miss because of not being used in that battle?
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/04/15 13:06:10
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
I'll be totally honest. I saw the daemon list and thought "Oh dear...what a terrible list, this can never work...Might as well watch though, see what comes of it."
20 mins later I was like "O.O How did...what...is...this...sorcery!?"
It's not a list I would have played, but damn he knew how to play it
2013/04/15 15:15:34
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
Valek wrote: Jy2 in you first list where you have the heralds i think you should test the hounds with Karanak, this is defininetely a killer.
Tbh i don't like the monstrous creature spam, they have indeed some hard counters, Necrons will be one of them with all the S7 shots they can muster, and they have flyers enough to either kill or force grounding.
I was thinking more of a Khorne Herald on juggie with Greater Etherblade instead. I'd probably have to drop my DP to do so but I may give it a try. Honestly, I don't feel that it is a game-breaking move. It's decent but it isn't a "killer combo". The hounds aren't really very killy. They're better as a disruption unit to tie up the enemy instead and I would never recommend having more than 1 of these units in any army.
Yeah, FMC-spam isn't the most balanced build. Like most deathstar armies, it'll crush a lot of enemies but will have some hard counters, 2 of which will include necron flyer-spam and even MSU armies.
MarkyMark wrote: Perfect timing cannot be cast on other units can it?
You are right. While technically, I played it wrong....I actually also played it right because only the units who cast the power fired at the intended targets.
Any chance we can see equipment of those Lords, always intresting to see those small things you miss because of not being used in that battle?
I believe this was their load-outs, though I don't have his list:
Wolf Lord - Thunderwolf, 2+/3++, 2x Fenrisian Wolves, Wolftooth Necklance, Powerfist, Saga of the Bear (Warlord)
Wolf Lord - Thunderwolf, 2+/3++, 2x Fenrisian Wolves, Wolftooth Necklance, Wolf Claws, Saga of the Warrior Born
Wolf Lord - Thunderwolf, 2+/3++, 2x Fenrisian Wolves, Wolftooth Necklance, Thunderhammer, Saga of Majesty
Wolf Lord - Thunderwolf, 2+/3++, 2x Fenrisian Wolves, Wolftooth Necklance, Thunderhammer, Wolftooth Talisman (?)
Evileyes wrote: I'll be totally honest. I saw the daemon list and thought "Oh dear...what a terrible list, this can never work...Might as well watch though, see what comes of it."
20 mins later I was like "O.O How did...what...is...this...sorcery!?"
It's not a list I would have played, but damn he knew how to play it
There's actually a lot of synergy between how the units interact, especially with all those psychic powers. These 2 lists may not be the best, but they're actually harder to fight than most people think. If you don't bring psychic defense (i.e. ally in some eldar allies while you still can), you just may have trouble against them. Bring a Runes farseer while you still can and my lists will have problems instead.
FMC's don't like being vector strike'd by Heldrakes...
They really really don't like it. D3+1 hits that wound on 2's (v T5) and cause a grounding test. *sad face* I got stomped by a CSM player just last week.
2013/04/15 22:03:43
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
loreweaver wrote: FMC's don't like being vector strike'd by Heldrakes...
They really really don't like it. D3+1 hits that wound on 2's (v T5) and cause a grounding test. *sad face* I got stomped by a CSM player just last week.
Fortunately, Chaos daemons don't really care about heldrakes. FMC's have 5++ saves, with possible re-roll's due to rewards, 4+ FNP, Iron Arm, 4++ due to Forewarning, 3++ due to the Grimoire or any of the combination of the above. Flyrants need to watch out for heldrakes because they have no saves except Endurance and Iron Arm. Otherwise, daemons are highly survivable against flying turkeys.
BTW, don't have my rulebook with me, but I don't believe they can be grounded my vector strikes. They can only be grounded by shooting attacks and a vector strike isn't a shooting attack.
Its too bad tau doesnt have access to long range barrage weapons as I think its pretty imperative to take out the Grimoire asap. Its a bit early to tell but I think pure Tau is going to be hard to pull off. I think Tau allied with either Eldrad(for now) or IG would be the way to go.
-5000 Pts. of Orks
-1750 Pts. of Ravenwing
2013/04/15 23:54:29
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
Well he would have done better had he taken more optimal choices. Railhead, piranha's, crisis suits and stealth suits are all less then ideal choices. A couple riptides and some missile sides could have made the difference. never leave home without your farseer either Runes would have shut down the demons entirely. I am interested in seeing farsight used as well, I think he helps in this sort of match up as he would have precision DS into the demon back field and that unit can literally tear the back field up all by itself.
Dan will get better. He literally got the codex on that day and I walked into the shop while he was still reading it. He didn't have time to really analyze the units and just went with basically what he owned. Yeah, I agree that he should dump some of those units, most notably the skyray, stealth suits and piranhas, for some of the newer units....but all in good time. I also believe he will keep his farseer + jetbike guardians in his Tau list, but for this game, he wanted to get a feel for all the Tau units and the chemistry between them.
I actually played against another more optimized Tau army with my FMC-heavy list before playing against Dan. My opponent brought a similar list to Dan, except with Farsight + friends and 2 skyfire Riptides. It was a game I could have and should have won, however, a few rolls went against me which cost me that game. First was that he was able to ground my DP early and then insta-killed him with his railhead. Then I roll a 1 for my Grimoire on my Warlord (6++ only!) and he shot him down with the skyfire Riptide. Finally I charged my Iron Arm DP (with 3W) into Farsight's unit and they managed to kill him with 4 hits!!!
y0disisray wrote: Its too bad tau doesnt have access to long range barrage weapons as I think its pretty imperative to take out the Grimoire asap. Its a bit early to tell but I think pure Tau is going to be hard to pull off. I think Tau allied with either Eldrad(for now) or IG would be the way to go.
This is what Kroot with sniper rounds are for. You can precision shot a grimoire carrying herald out of unit on 6's to hit. If it is carried by an FMC then you are still wounding it on 4+ and any 6's will rend their armor save. 14 sniper Kroot are less than 100 points. Take 2 units and with 28 dice you're bound to get enough 6's to do the job. Infiltrate or outflank means you should be able to get into a good firing position. Two units would cost less than than a single FMC in the video did....and they score.
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
2013/04/16 19:33:40
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
I actually love the kroot oxs now as out flankers, 3 guns equates to basically 3 auto canons at 24" that will hit targets on the flank. Kroot are still by far the best troop option IMO without using allies. Heck even as defenders they gain shots from the ethereal and his ld 10 and making them stubborn will help them tie things up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote: Dan will get better. He literally got the codex on that day and I walked into the shop while he was still reading it. He didn't have time to really analyze the units and just went with basically what he owned. Yeah, I agree that he should dump some of those units, most notably the skyray, stealth suits and piranhas, for some of the newer units....but all in good time. I also believe he will keep his farseer + jetbike guardians in his Tau list, but for this game, he wanted to get a feel for all the Tau units and the chemistry between them.
I actually played against another more optimized Tau army with my FMC-heavy list before playing against Dan. My opponent brought a similar list to Dan, except with Farsight + friends and 2 skyfire Riptides. It was a game I could have and should have won, however, a few rolls went against me which cost me that game. First was that he was able to ground my DP early and then insta-killed him with his railhead. Then I roll a 1 for my Grimoire on my Warlord (6++ only!) and he shot him down with the skyfire Riptide. Finally I charged my Iron Arm DP (with 3W) into Farsight's unit and they managed to kill him with 4 hits!!!
Ah but alas that is the demon codex. Its less about strategy (not saying it isn't important) and more about a few key rolls. It makes games entertaining for one side and annoying for the other.
I think the skyray actually has a place in lists, as dumping it's payload can be crippling to certain targets early on. But I agree that it's a tricky unit. I think tau will shine best when allied to marines, they help solve their issues with troops while benefiting from USR play time that tau seem to enjoy Although I was talking with my brother about how taking a tau commander with eldrad and a 10 man WG unit could be funny as he can give HaR with retrofire jets and dole out USR with pertide chip. Makes for a scary deathstar as an allied detatchment and helps again with psychic opponents and scoring.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/16 19:40:09
y0disisray wrote: Its too bad tau doesnt have access to long range barrage weapons as I think its pretty imperative to take out the Grimoire asap. Its a bit early to tell but I think pure Tau is going to be hard to pull off. I think Tau allied with either Eldrad(for now) or IG would be the way to go.
This is what Kroot with sniper rounds are for. You can precision shot a grimoire carrying herald out of unit on 6's to hit. If it is carried by an FMC then you are still wounding it on 4+ and any 6's will rend their armor save. 14 sniper Kroot are less than 100 points. Take 2 units and with 28 dice you're bound to get enough 6's to do the job. Infiltrate or outflank means you should be able to get into a good firing position. Two units would cost less than than a single FMC in the video did....and they score.
This is true I totally forgot about snipers getting precision shots as I never use snipers nor do I really ever go up against them. You would most certainly have to take more than one unit so that your opponent doesn't field the grimoire on the opposite flank of your snipers and so that he wont just tie them up in hand to hand as fast as possible. As far as the Daemon Codex I would definately agree that a huge portion is how well you roll on those random effects. For example at the Broadside Bash I had a unit of nob bikers with two biker bosses demolish a unit of 15 bloodletters leaving like 5-6 left and my opponent happened to roll two ones on his DI test thus bringing them all back. Next turn was my opponent's and he continued to throw unit after unit after unit into the fray with Skarbrand making his way to camp outside the fray with his "blessing" bubble so that I was never able to gain the bonuses but my opponent's units did. Needless to say I was tied up all game and it literally costed me the game.
-5000 Pts. of Orks
-1750 Pts. of Ravenwing
2013/04/16 22:05:21
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
Only the DP of Nurgle gets biomancy, though that could just be the rule for CSM, but I think the DP are limited in their psychic choices too, the one good thing about them in Daemon codex though is that they do not have to take one power from the daemon that they hail from
Armies
Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Eldar Corsairs, Orks, Tyranids, Genestealer Cult, Chaos, Choas Space Marines, Tau, Sisters of Battle, Inquisition, Necrons, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Dark Angels, Imperial Guard, Ad Mech, Knights, Skaven, Sylvaneth
2013/04/17 01:58:16
Subject: Re:Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: Only the DP of Nurgle gets biomancy, though that could just be the rule for CSM, but I think the DP are limited in their psychic choices too, the one good thing about them in Daemon codex though is that they do not have to take one power from the daemon that they hail from
That's only CSM.
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
2013/04/17 02:02:01
Subject: Video Bat Rep: Tzeentch Daemon Double Header vs. Tau and vs. Space Wolves
Ah but alas that is the demon codex. Its less about strategy (not saying it isn't important) and more about a few key rolls. It makes games entertaining for one side and annoying for the other.
Which is actually fine by me. I actually enjoy the unpredictability of daemons. That makes for a bunch of highs and lows. One minute, you are about to smash your opponent with 4-5 threats all at once. Then next minute, they're taking wounds from Daemonic Instability and the Invuln save on the unit which you really need to survive gets nerfed and he dies. If I want a solid army less reliant on fickle dices, I'd just stick with my necrons or one of my Imperial armies. Daemons are a more extreme version of tyranids, who also rely on some dice as well (psychic powers, tervigons going sterile, flyrants failing Grounding tests). I like the challenge of trying to win consistently with an army which is anything but consistent.
I think the skyray actually has a place in lists, as dumping it's payload can be crippling to certain targets early on. But I agree that it's a tricky unit. I think tau will shine best when allied to marines, they help solve their issues with troops while benefiting from USR play time that tau seem to enjoy Although I was talking with my brother about how taking a tau commander with eldrad and a 10 man WG unit could be funny as he can give HaR with retrofire jets and dole out USR with pertide chip. Makes for a scary deathstar as an allied detatchment and helps again with psychic opponents and scoring.
You're probably right about the skyray. However, something's got to give if you want to bring in those Riptides.
Tau and marines will make for an interesting combination. One of my friends - Kingsley - runs that combo (before the new Tau dex came out) and has been doing very well with it, even winning Best Space Marine at the BAO. As for Tau and Eldar, I'm sure there are a lot of combos that have yet to be discovered. However, hard to see the Commander in another role other than markerlight-drone-babysitter. Lol.
SaganGree wrote: Please correct me if I am wrong... but Lords of Change only have access to Divination and Change... the DPs can get biomancy
You are right. I missed that one. I was thinking that Tzeentch units had access to Divination. Forgot that DP's didn't.
My bad. I'll call that game against Frankie a Draw.
Dozer Blades wrote: Psychic powers for the new daemons is really strong. You can take that to Vegas.
Yeah, psychic powers make each unit a force-multiplier. IMO, force-multipliers are the most dangerous units in the game and currently, daemons are the strongest psyker army.
Of course, Space Wolves, Tyranids and Eldar (at least for the time being) can really f*ck up daemons with their anti-psyker defense, but everything needs some type of check and balance.
@jy2: If you don't think hounds are killy enough, you haven't done the math on a unit or two of them with prescience. Besides, overkilling a unit so you can sit out in the open and get focus fired is rarely a good move. Just ask Khorne Berserkers how that has been working for them.
Yea I agree, hounds are one of the best units in that book IMO. Eventually some bloke will field 60 with heralds and make some one cry. Its scary how fast AND resilient those pups are.
@jy2- it depends on whose your primary detachment regarding the suit comander. If I am playing Tau, I am taking marines as an ally and I may run the commander that way. If I am playing marines and I chose Tau (easy choice now lol) I am taking a pureitde engrim commander or shadowsun to dole out USR. Marker lights are not very worth it in an allied detachment, actually depending on how many foreign bodies you recruit I'd argue the value of marker lights starts to fall off the chart pretty quick.
hippesthippo wrote: @jy2: If you don't think hounds are killy enough, you haven't done the math on a unit or two of them with prescience. Besides, overkilling a unit so you can sit out in the open and get focus fired is rarely a good move. Just ask Khorne Berserkers how that has been working for them.
I guarantee you that if you take that many hounds up against any of my tournament armies, I will beat them soundly.
Not saying that hounds are bad, they are quite good. However, they are not a balanced unit and certain builds (i.e. mainly the xenos ones) will give them problems. I wouldn't put all my "eggs" in 1 basket.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: Yea I agree, hounds are one of the best units in that book IMO. Eventually some bloke will field 60 with heralds and make some one cry. Its scary how fast AND resilient those pups are.
@jy2- it depends on whose your primary detachment regarding the suit comander. If I am playing Tau, I am taking marines as an ally and I may run the commander that way. If I am playing marines and I chose Tau (easy choice now lol) I am taking a pureitde engrim commander or shadowsun to dole out USR. Marker lights are not very worth it in an allied detachment, actually depending on how many foreign bodies you recruit I'd argue the value of marker lights starts to fall off the chart pretty quick.
That's true. Marines as allies are there to buff up the Tau. Tau as allies to marines are there to buff up the marines. Markerlights are only worth it if Tau is the Primary and the focus of the offense is still centered around Tau shooting.
As for the Hounds, I wouldn't say that they are the best daemon unit out there. As a matter of fact, I don't see a clear-cut best unit. Instead I see a bunch of good units working together in synergy to make them even better. Hounds are not as good without Prescience and perhaps Forewarning+Grimoire to make them into an awesome unit. Then you put a flying MC or seekers on the other flank and now they're much better because now the opponent has to deal with 2 threats to his flanks. It's all about the army on the whole. No single unit in the dex can carry the day by itself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/17 15:03:02
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
-5000 Pts. of Orks
-1750 Pts. of Ravenwing 
Runes would have shut down the demons entirely. I am interested in seeing farsight used as well, I think he helps in this sort of match up as he would have precision 
Although I was talking with my brother about how taking a tau commander with eldrad and a 10 man 
