Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am running Reznik, who to me seems like a good offensive caster, whats a good general build around him. I would just buy what seems good but this is uncharted territory for me. All I know is that a league at 15 points is starting soon and I need advice, so any would be appreciated.

Reznik can put out a load of hurt on anyone, especially if they have a buff on them. His offensive spells are lacking for a 6 focus caster. He wants Reckoners for his jacks as they provide good charge distances. Choir is a must. Exemplars of all sorts benefit from ignite. Exemplar errants can also give you that ranged punch to compliment your army if you like them. Their UA and solo benefit their ability to find and kill enemy infantry. Save rezniks feat for the assassination run.

What would you say would be a good comp for a 15p league?

Reznik +6
-Reckoner 8
-Repenter 4
choir (min) 2
Exemplar Errant (min) 5
Exemplar Errant Seneschal 2

Would be ok. a little light on jacks, so you may have to use Reznik or errants offensively against Khador players to wipe out a jack. Just be careful about it with Reznik.

Ah okay, thank you for that list, gives me a starting point, I appreciate it.

The two Reznik lists I'd run at 15points would probably be

Reznik (+6)

Reckoner 8
Crusader 6
Repenter 4
Choir 2
Wracks

Basically the all Jack list with a little support. Or

Reznik (+6)
Reckoner 8
Repenter 4

Daughters of the Flame 5
Choir 2
Vassal 2

Daughters of the Flame make a decent infantry with Reznik, as they're quite survivable on their own, whereas Errants tend to die a bit easier without a defensive buff and a full unit. You could also try a Vanquisher instead of the Reckoner, but you lose some melee threat range with that. If you ever have to play 'Mangled Metal' games, where you're only allowed a Caster and Jacks, you can also try Rezniks theme list which reduces the cost of Reckoners by a point, so you can take 3 of them in a 15pt list.

Reznik really likes the Templar & Reckoner as they both benefit greatly from Iron Agression.

Free Charges makes assault free for the Reckoner.
The extra attack from the free charge basically gives the Templar the same effective threat range as a our SPD5 'Jacks, but less predictable angles thanks to beat back.

Reznik likes the sactifier because it fuels itself without using his focus - while remaining in his battle group. Stretching is strapped resources

Reznik really likes the Temple Flamegaurd as they're cheap, cut the mustard defensively without additional support and are one of the best targets for ignite we have.


All that said... 15pts is restrictive Normally I'd say "When points are few, be sure to skew" and say to take a pair of crusaders + another heavy and just bank that 3 heavies are a damn tough to crack at 15, especailly when using any magic on them gets your face punched in from witch houng.

Howver since this is a league, I'm assuming you'll have to keep your first pick models and move forward with them.

To that end I'd focus less on getting together a winning list at 15pts and more for laying a foundation for winning list in the later weeks. The plain fact is Protectorate wants support and thus will suffer at lower points levels as they'll either lack support or lack their heavy lifters. I'd say this:

Reznik
+Sanctifier
+Vanquisher (this 'jack requires no focus an basically melts infantry).
Minimum Choir
Vassel of Menoth

This leaves you with no hanging points, gives you a target for every buff and lays a foundation for a good battlegroup. The Sanctifier would like to have more infantry around but it just won't fit at this points level. Your next step would be to add maximum Temple Flameguard Unit. Beyond that I'd want my 35pt list (assuming this is what your league is building to) to look something like this.

Reznik
+Sanctifier
+Vanquisher
+(Templar or Reckoner)
Maximum Choir
Maximum Temple Flameguard
Convenant of Menoth
Vassal of Menoth
Vassal of Menoth
(Wracks or Mechanik; or drop the choir to minimum and take a 2pt solo of your choice)

What order to add things to build up to this, would be a matter of personal choice.

With Reznik, remember it's usually better to use Passage than Shielding, even if the enemy only has 1-2 guns on the table. This is because Shielding reads "You can't target 'Jacks with magic" while Witch Round reads "If you target a 'Jack with magic I'm getting a free move and attack and it can probably cost you the game". Using anything short of say.. Crippling Grasp on one of Rezniks 'jacks is just your opponent shooting themselves in the foot.

Also, remember you can use Enliven moves aggressively. Especially if they trigger it late in their turn. The natural instinct is just to back off in order to spare yourself the hit. Cramming the 'Jack further down their throat is often the better move. Especially on a caster like Rezniks who his own out of activation movement (Perdition).

If this is a new players league and somebody dares make the mistake of damaging a 'Jack with one of their spells. Enliven Triggers (Full Advance), Witch Hound Triggers (Full Advance). Then Reznik moves up and Perditions (Full Advance), then 'Jack can potentially use it's own activation to charge. That's up to a 23" threat range. If it's the sanctifier sitting on souls it can even allocate to itself waaaaay out of Rezniks control area. I'll grant you it's a bit of a magical Christmas land scenario that requires a gross misplay from your opponent, I'm just putting it out there to sort of highlight the ways Reznik can be used to punish the enemy.

Finally if Reznik destroys a warrior model and makes a Wrack 2" away from him, he has reach and can potentially destroy it (or another model can). If you placed it with the edge of the base at that maximum 2" away from him, he will be safely just outside the death blast area. Since you have so much control over the placement you can sometimes blow up the majority of a unit with a single focus for that extra attack after the initial one creates a wrack.

Thank you, it gives me more to think about. I appreciate the information.

Since OP has got the necessary answers, and could perhaps benefit from my questions, I just want to ask my questions in lieu of a new topic.

I also want to start Warmachine and or Hordes with my buddy, likely with one or both of the games' 2 player boxes. I'll take the Menoth and Circle halves. For Menoth, and in general really, I don't really like Warjacks so I'd go really unit heavy with all the Exemplar units especially Bastions, Exemplars, and Cinerators. I'll probably take a Crusader or something just to use the Warcaster's points. Also I'll probably take eKreoss because I hear that he's good for units. So any input I can get in that regard would be much appreciated.

Additionally, I'd want to go really Warbeast heavy with Kaya in Circle, I should make a new thread...but just putting it out there if I can get any advice, please.

 Syrell wrote:
Since OP has got the necessary answers, and could perhaps benefit from my questions, I just want to ask my questions in lieu of a new topic.

I also want to start Warmachine and or Hordes with my buddy, likely with one or both of the games' 2 player boxes. I'll take the Menoth and Circle halves. For Menoth, and in general really, I don't really like Warjacks so I'd go really unit heavy with all the Exemplar units especially Bastions, Exemplars, and Cinerators. I'll probably take a Crusader or something just to use the Warcaster's points. Also I'll probably take eKreoss because I hear that he's good for units. So any input I can get in that regard would be much appreciated.

Additionally, I'd want to go really Warbeast heavy with Kaya in Circle, I should make a new thread...but just putting it out there if I can get any advice, please.

Menoth: Exemplars hit like a truck, but they suffer from slowness in general. You're on the right track with eKreoss. Specifically his Tier 4 Theme list (Theme lists are theme fluffy forces that give you bonuses). You Run 1 'Jack and then a boat load of exemplars. The Vanilla exemplars are pretty good, bastions are OK. Cinerators are pretty bad. Exemplar Errants can be very powerful with the right caster (Harbinger, pSevvy, Vindictus, pKreoss), Exemplar Vengers are hard to use be solid with Kreoss3.

That said "All Exemplars" is narrow and will face some bad matchups. If you're going to the t4 eKreoss route, you'd better off with the Fires of Salvation than a Crusader. In fact you need it for your theme force.

It can work, but Warjacks are such a backbone in the Protectorate force and our 'Jacks are unqiuely good you may find yourself feeling constrained in the long run. You could branch out to Vindictus, maybe Harbinger or pSevvy.

OK thanks a bunch for the advice! I haven't started, or gotten anything yet except the rulebook so I don't know a whole lot. I'll probably get a good number of things eventually. I just like the aesthetics of the units a lot. The starter boxes give a good number of Warjacks, correct? I'll look into those extra Warcasters, so thanks for turning me on to that.

Fires of Salvation does look pretty darn awesome, pity the Cinerators are weak. I liked the sword and shield look the best.

 Syrell wrote:
OK thanks a bunch for the advice! I haven't started, or gotten anything yet except the rulebook so I don't know a whole lot. I'll probably get a good number of things eventually. I just like the aesthetics of the units a lot. The starter boxes give a good number of Warjacks, correct? I'll look into those extra Warcasters, so thanks for turning me on to that.

Fires of Salvation does look pretty darn awesome, pity the Cinerators are weak. I liked the sword and shield look the best.

You can still make cinterators "Work" to a certain extent, they'll just never really be an optimal choice. I play them with Vindictus an don't feel terrible about it.

The 2-player start will give you

High Exemplar Kreoss (pKreoss)
Crusader Warjack (Heavy Warjack, Reliable Beastick. Generally a 2nd/Wave points-filler pick. Does a good job for 6pts, but many of the 8-point options are better at filling the primary slot)
Vanquisher Warjack (Heavy Warjack, Roasts Infantry. One of the top 'Jacks in the faction. Combined with the Vassal of Menoth solo it is one of the best infantry-clear tools in any faction)
Repenter Warjack (Light Warjack. Cheap. Tough for it's points. It has a 8" spray flamethrower that's good against infantry and even enemy solos or casters. It's not a heavy lifter but does a lot of work for 4pts. When buffed by the Choir it demands far more respect from your opponent than other lights do.)
Full Unit Cinerators (Heavy Infantry. Good Army. Low Threat range, conditional abilties your opponent can mitigate. Hit hard and look cool, but there are usually more efficient options)

OK well all that stuff from the box seems pretty good, actually. And it'll be cheaper than buying it piece by piece. I'd still need to buy eKreoss at first and the other guys you mentioned though. For somebody who wouldn't be using *terribly* many Warjacks how soon would it be good to buy a Choir? I hear that's pretty darn important. Also things like Vassals and Wracks.

Additionally, I'd really like to take one or more Paladins and/or Vilmon. Is it true that Harbringer is good for that? Or is eKreoss good enough?

 Syrell wrote:
OK well all that stuff from the box seems pretty good, actually. And it'll be cheaper than buying it piece by piece. I'd still need to buy eKreoss at first and the other guys you mentioned though. For somebody who wouldn't be using *terribly* many Warjacks how soon would it be good to buy a Choir? I hear that's pretty darn important. Also things like Vassals and Wracks.

If you're running 2 or more Warjacks you want the choir... sometimes you can sometimes even justify it with just 1. I'd advise grabbing a choir & a vassal of menoth to go with your start box contents. While these are jack-central tools they should give you a feel for the "Standard" play style of the faction. From there you can decide if you reallywant to go for an exemplar swarm or take your menites in a different direction.

Try to get in 5 games minimum before you settle into a play style. I also wouldn't jump into a bunch of casters. I only mentioned them as possibilities. At most you want to buy one extra caster from the battle box but to be honest pKreoss is a GREAT learning caster, versatile and easy to use but with some naunce to him for advanced players.

If you like the idea of Infantry, I'd also suggest taking a gander at the Temple Flameguard, Holy Zealots & Daughters of the Flame. These are all really solid units and can compliment exemplars by providing a fast first wave element to tie up the enemy while the exemplars waddle up the field. Though, "Exemplar Errants" can also perform this role.

eKreoss' tier list does work and does great job of what you want to do (spam exemplars), but I'd caution it's a big buy-in to assemble the required parts and really doesn't share its whole parts list with things other casters want.

I suppose pKreoss would be really good to learn with since they picked him to go into the boxes. I'm probably going to try a whole bunch of things eventually once I get really into it.

I'll have a look at those units too, there aren't any that I dislike the aesthetic of except Idrians, because they just don't seem to match the theme of Menoth to me.

I'll probably use a couple of the cooler Heavies, but I've yet to see a Light that I like. I'll get the Choir once I get into that, and the Vassal too like you said, probably right away actually.

I edited my earlier post, dunno if you saw but I'd really like to take one or more Paladins and/or Vilmon. Is it true that Harbringer is good for that? Or is eKreoss good enough?

some notes:

-some casters, like reznik or the bucher, are kind of jerks in really small point games, since "deliver reznik to other caster" is pretty much an auto-win, at those point levels it's pretty hard to have enough models on the board to prevent it

-I'm in the minority it seems, but when you get up to 35 or 50 pt range I love the guardian with reznik, iron aggression granting tons of free ptiches is great stuff.

I'd hardly call Reznik a jerk at any levels - there are far worse for unbalancing the game at really low levels (pGoreshade or pThagrosh come to mind), though he does hit like a truck, which helps.

I'm also a Warmachine noob. I got the Protectorate box at Adepticon in my swag bag, looks like I might have to have a look at this Reznik fellow.

So I apologize if this is necroing. First day of league play today, I went 2-1. I only lost to Cain or Kain? I got in range and did not know he could explode Reznik in one turn with no problems. That being said all I know is that I will be moving up to 25 points in two sessions and this is what I eventually ran with what I had.

Reznik
Crusader (H Jack)
Vanquisher (H Jack)
Vassal
Max Choir

I need to up it by 10 points and I have ideas but would love to hear what other people would do, since I am still very much green when it comes to warmachine.

 Sachamo wrote:
So I apologize if this is necroing. First day of league play today, I went 2-1. I only lost to Cain or Kain? I got in range and did not know he could explode Reznik in one turn with no problems. That being said all I know is that I will be moving up to 25 points in two sessions and this is what I eventually ran with what I had.

Reznik
Crusader (H Jack)
Vanquisher (H Jack)
Vassal
Max Choir

I need to up it by 10 points and I have ideas but would love to hear what other people would do, since I am still very much green when it comes to warmachine.

Well done going 2-1, and don't worry about losing to eCaine, he's a biatch of an assassin. For your extra 10 points, I would probably getting a nice tarpit to block up front - Exemplar Errants, Zealots or Temple Flameguard are our best options for this. Max Errants and U/A (and you always want the U/A), is 10 points exactly, and are good all-rounders. Put Ignite on them, and they'll hit very hard, but they can shoot too. Zealots (with U/A) are great as they can be nearly invincible for a turn, and don't really need any caster buffs to work well, but since their main attack is Ranged, they won't get much use out of Ignite. TFG are probably the most survivable unit out of the 3, and they're fast, have Reach and make good jammers. Also, while the U/A is good, it isn't a necessity like it is on Zealots or Errants, so you can get away with a 6pt unit if you wanted to.

To make the most of Ignite, I'd probably go Errants or TFG, whichever you like the look of. If Errants, max with U/A takes you to 25. If TFG, you can have them with U/A for 8, or without for 6, and then upgrading the Crusader to either a Reckoner or Templar. If you went without the TFG U/A, get a 2pt solo on top of that, and you're golden.

You don't need max Choir with only 2 Jacks.

For the next session, drop the Choir to minimum, get some Wracks, and then pick up max Errants with their UA.

After doing some sleuthing, and researching how would this look for a 25 point list.

Reznik
-Reckoner 8
-Reckoner 8
-Vanquisher 8
Choir of Menoth (Min) 2
Vassal of Menoth 2
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord 2
Wrack 1

Nix the piper for a second vassal. IIRC his tunes only work on units. If you want reznik to have pathfinder, grab saxon orrick

BTNeophyte wrote:
Nix the piper for a second vassal. IIRC his tunes only work on units. If you want reznik to have pathfinder, grab saxon orrick

Would that Alchemist be any good? I am very green and read about two mercenaries who go really well with Menoth.

Thank you for letting me know about the piper.

 Sachamo wrote:

BTNeophyte wrote:
Nix the piper for a second vassal. IIRC his tunes only work on units. If you want reznik to have pathfinder, grab saxon orrick

Would that Alchemist be any good? I am very green and read about two mercenaries who go really well with Menoth.

Thank you for letting me know about the piper.

Gorman Di Wolfe? He's a pretty awesome solo, definitely worth his 2 points and then some - his blind bombs are ridiculously good, and allow him to basically shut down anything (even a colossal) for a turn, and his other bombs have great utility too. Rhupert is a great support solo for Menoth, but he's usually only worth it if you have a couple of good targets he can buff, and as he can only buff Units (a Unit in Warmahordes means a squad, rather than meaning any distinct choice like it does in 40k, Jacks, solos and other individual models are not units), you don't have anything to target but the Choir, and it's really not worth the points to buff them. Once you do get a couple of units though, pick him up as tough on Errants or +1Def and Terror on Daughters of the Flame are both brilliant.

Anyway, with that change your list looks OK, though personally I'd generally go a unit rather than the second reckoner just to spread you out a bit - a 25 point force that's basically made up of 4 combat models can sometimes feel quite out-numbered at times, though the Vanquisher/Vassal combo will help with crowd control. I'd go something like:

Reznik
Reckoner 8
Vanquisher 8

Choir 2
TFG+U/A 8
Vassal 2
Gorman 2
Wracks 1

and then grab a 3rd heavy when moving up to 35pts. That's just me though, if you like jack heavy, give your list a spin

Gorman Di Wulfe is never a bad choice.

 Maddermax wrote:

 Sachamo wrote:

BTNeophyte wrote:
Nix the piper for a second vassal. IIRC his tunes only work on units. If you want reznik to have pathfinder, grab saxon orrick

Would that Alchemist be any good? I am very green and read about two mercenaries who go really well with Menoth.

Thank you for letting me know about the piper.

Gorman Di Wolfe? He's a pretty awesome solo, definitely worth his 2 points and then some - his blind bombs are ridiculously good, and allow him to basically shut down anything (even a colossal) for a turn, and his other bombs have great utility too. Rhupert is a great support solo for Menoth, but he's usually only worth it if you have a couple of good targets he can buff, and as he can only buff Units (a Unit in Warmahordes means a squad, rather than meaning any distinct choice like it does in 40k, Jacks, solos and other individual models are not units), you don't have anything to target but the Choir, and it's really not worth the points to buff them. Once you do get a couple of units though, pick him up as tough on Errants or +1Def and Terror on Daughters of the Flame are both brilliant.

Anyway, with that change your list looks OK, though personally I'd generally go a unit rather than the second reckoner just to spread you out a bit - a 25 point force that's basically made up of 4 combat models can sometimes feel quite out-numbered at times, though the Vanquisher/Vassal combo will help with crowd control. I'd go something like:

Reznik
Reckoner 8
Vanquisher 8

Choir 2
TFG+U/A 8
Vassal 2
Gorman 2
Wracks 1

and then grab a 3rd heavy when moving up to 35pts. That's just me though, if you like jack heavy, give your list a spin

I see U/A around quite a bit, what does that mean? Also is their a downside to going Jack heavy? I love setting up big turns with Heavy Jacks, third game I played I blitzed down a Carnivean from full health to dust in one turn.

 Sachamo wrote:


I see U/A around quite a bit, what does that mean? Also is their a downside to going Jack heavy? I love setting up big turns with Heavy Jacks, third game I played I blitzed down a Carnivean from full health to dust in one turn.

Unit Attachment


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are several disadvantages
1 - They die easily to cheap high damage infantry
2 - The more jacks you have, the less focus you can give each of them
3 - There are several things that work specifically to take out jacks, but not infantry
4 - More jacks means less focus for your caster to use spells

 Talamare wrote:

 Sachamo wrote:


I see U/A around quite a bit, what does that mean? Also is their a downside to going Jack heavy? I love setting up big turns with Heavy Jacks, third game I played I blitzed down a Carnivean from full health to dust in one turn.

Unit Attachment


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are several disadvantages
1 - They die easily to cheap high damage infantry
2 - The more jacks you have, the less focus you can give each of them
3 - There are several things that work specifically to take out jacks, but not infantry
4 - More jacks means less focus for your caster to use spells

I know what it means, what does it mean when you have a unit + a U/A?

It means you have a unit of X with that particular unit's Unit Attachment.

So max Errants with UA means you have a unit of 10 Errants with an attached Officer and Banner dude, for a total of 12 guys.