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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 01:56:03
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Furyou Miko wrote:Tau have a long history of field-testing unstable weapons.
Anyone remember the original rules for Rail Rifles? They had hard-wired targetting systems that would melt the Pathfinder's brain if they misfired. That's why the second iteration only had them on drones!
Yup, the White Dwarf when they were released even had a fluff piece were the Fire Warrior tested died from the weapon malfunctioning. The commanding officer was about to tear the Earth Caste a new one, but the sacrifice was for the Greater Good.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 02:02:40
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Focused Fire Warrior
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Majority of ion weps are on monstrous creatures or vehicles anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 02:22:12
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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Aren't the only dangerous weapons only on Proto-type suits?
And even then, aren't they activatable for a boost of power, rather then Gets Hot! all the time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 02:58:46
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
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MrMoustaffa wrote:
endless waves of soccer hooligan mushroom people with the ability to tear open the fabric of space and time with a 2x4 and some duct tape, and space elves that torture them for the heck of it, where failure meant the destruction of their entire race.
Mushroom people? I no understand.
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...I reject your reality and substitute it with my own...
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ThePrimordial wrote:
Tervigon comes out of nowhere. Proceeds to beat the Emperor to a bloody pulp somehow.
That's actually what happened, Horus is secretly a Tervigon.
The inquisition doesn't want you to know.
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DS:90+S++G+++M++B+I+++Pw40k07#++D++A++/cWD341R+++T(T)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 03:04:12
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Timmy149 wrote: MrMoustaffa wrote:
endless waves of soccer hooligan mushroom people with the ability to tear open the fabric of space and time with a 2x4 and some duct tape, and space elves that torture them for the heck of it, where failure meant the destruction of their entire race.
Mushroom people? I no understand.
Orks. They're a hybrid of animal and fungus
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'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 03:07:17
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
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MrMoustaffa wrote: Timmy149 wrote: MrMoustaffa wrote:
endless waves of soccer hooligan mushroom people with the ability to tear open the fabric of space and time with a 2x4 and some duct tape, and space elves that torture them for the heck of it, where failure meant the destruction of their entire race.
Mushroom people? I no understand.
Orks. They're a hybrid of animal and fungus
Ah. I thought you meant something like this
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...I reject your reality and substitute it with my own...
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ThePrimordial wrote:
Tervigon comes out of nowhere. Proceeds to beat the Emperor to a bloody pulp somehow.
That's actually what happened, Horus is secretly a Tervigon.
The inquisition doesn't want you to know.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DS:90+S++G+++M++B+I+++Pw40k07#++D++A++/cWD341R+++T(T)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 03:22:15
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Sister Oh-So Repentia
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MrMoustaffa wrote: Redbeard wrote:There are way too many ways of killing off your own guys coming into the game. I really noticed it with the new Tau codex, specifically because of how it doesn't make any sense with their existing fluff, but on further reflection it extends through most of the game.
When I say that it contradicts existing Tau fluff, well, there's even in the new codex the following paragraph:
"Plasma technology is used by many races, despite its highly unstable nature. Tau favor a form of the technology that forgoes a degree of stopping power for an increased level of safety for the operator." - Page 66.
That's always been one of the things that separated the Tau from the Imperials - the unwillingness to view troops as expendable. And yet, on the same page, we now see the Tau willing to kill off their own troops with Ion weapons. Not only that, but the newest, most advanced technological battle suit they have available damages its own systems 33% of the time when activating its Nova Reactor.
What gives? These numbers are so far outside the realm of the realistic as to be laughable. No real-world military force would field a weapon that rendered its own user incapacitated close to 17% of the time it was used. Real-world soldiers reject weapons that jam too often (in Vietnam, US troops would take up captured AKs from the Viet Cong as their M-16s had tighter tolerances and therefore were not as reliable in the jungle conditions), and that's just a failure to fire, not maiming the operator. A 33% failure rate on an expensive piece of gear like a Riptide suit would be equivalent to the same failure rate in a multi-million dollar plane or tank in the modern army, and would be viewed as completely unacceptable.
Does this add anything worthwhile to the game? I admit, I don't play with everyone. Maybe there are perverse people out there who enjoy watching their models die to their own guns. I don't think the game is improved with Gets Hot, Perils of the Warp, Turning My Own Guy Into a Spawn, and other such rules. There are better ways to balance things.
They're getting desperate to win the war it sounds like.
When your options are
A. Use a crappy weapon that won't kill you, but won't kill your target, meaning you have a 100% chance of dying, or
You forget, in the books, a Lasgun not only works well, but is chosen over some other more powerful guns for how well it works, and how much you can trust it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 03:33:55
Subject: Re:What's with killing your own guys?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Yeah, but many of the lasguns advantages arn't able to be portrayed on the table top. They would be more suited to an RPG.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 03:49:48
Subject: Re:What's with killing your own guys?
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Smokin' Skorcha Driver
Canada
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Honestly, this whole gets hot thing was the biggest problem I had with the new codex (even more than the "gunlines are awesumm" attitude of the army list).
Tau tech is supposed to be built safe, because they need every warrior and piece of gear functioning as best it can since they are such a small empire. Having units all over the army blowing themselves up and sacrificing their lives is completely at odds with what has been established already.
While I think it's okay we have a few experimental systems, it's the fact that all ion weaponry can blow up or break is what gets me. Of course, having the overcharge as an option is better, but still.
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tgjensen wrote:labmouse42 wrote:Another problem is the abject masculinity of the game. Nearly every character I've read about has the emotional range of a turnip. Hate, Anger, Fear, Loyalty, and Worship. That's about it.
Christ, where do you buy your turnips? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 03:56:47
Subject: Re:What's with killing your own guys?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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DakkaHammer wrote:Honestly, this whole gets hot thing was the biggest problem I had with the new codex (even more than the "gunlines are awesumm" attitude of the army list).
Tau tech is supposed to be built safe, because they need every warrior and piece of gear functioning as best it can since they are such a small empire. Having units all over the army blowing themselves up and sacrificing their lives is completely at odds with what has been established already.
While I think it's okay we have a few experimental systems, it's the fact that all ion weaponry can blow up or break is what gets me. Of course, having the overcharge as an option is better, but still.
Does it only get hot when you overcharge?
Because then that would make perfect sense.
When you push a piece of technology past it's safe limits of COURSE there will be a risk of failure.
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'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 04:41:33
Subject: Re:What's with killing your own guys?
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Smokin' Skorcha Driver
Canada
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MrMoustaffa wrote: DakkaHammer wrote:Honestly, this whole gets hot thing was the biggest problem I had with the new codex (even more than the "gunlines are awesumm" attitude of the army list).
Tau tech is supposed to be built safe, because they need every warrior and piece of gear functioning as best it can since they are such a small empire. Having units all over the army blowing themselves up and sacrificing their lives is completely at odds with what has been established already.
While I think it's okay we have a few experimental systems, it's the fact that all ion weaponry can blow up or break is what gets me. Of course, having the overcharge as an option is better, but still.
Does it only get hot when you overcharge?
Because then that would make perfect sense.
When you push a piece of technology past it's safe limits of COURSE there will be a risk of failure.
It's just the fact that you can push it to the point of blowing up in your face, and that' they made it so appealing. You get an extra strength point and blast/large blast. Same thing with the nova reactor on the riptide. It looks like it would be a rare occasion when you would not want to overcharge it.
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tgjensen wrote:labmouse42 wrote:Another problem is the abject masculinity of the game. Nearly every character I've read about has the emotional range of a turnip. Hate, Anger, Fear, Loyalty, and Worship. That's about it.
Christ, where do you buy your turnips? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 05:22:11
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Dakka Veteran
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Thats the thing with Tau they let the fire caste test the weapons for the earth caste and they actually do seek input from the soldiers after a invasion or battle.
Thats why the Tau is so technological because they have prototypes for commanders and specialists all the time out for testing, this is even in the list counted as "signature systems" and the prototype weapons for the Crisis suits such as the Fragmental launcher and the Ion cylinder.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 08:57:41
Subject: Re:What's with killing your own guys?
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Douglas Bader
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IMO there's just no way that it makes any sense fluff-wise. The "gets hot" rule works the way it does for game balance reasons, all you can do is just accept that taking a wound on a 1 is purely game mechanics and the actual failure rate is much lower (and most of those failures probably just break the weapon and remove the shooter from the fight until they can get a new gun).
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 10:10:33
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Well, we have the Fire Warrior computer game to blame for the whole thing, so... ^^;
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 10:45:21
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
New Zealand
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Fond memories of 2e where Chaos was the faction who 'souped-up' their plasma technology to a level which threatened the user.
As for firing into combat I always found it strange that my CSM are so concerned about accidentally hitting my cultist tarpit.
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5000 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 10:49:20
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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MarsNZ wrote:Fond memories of 2e where Chaos was the faction who 'souped-up' their plasma technology to a level which threatened the user.
As for firing into combat I always found it strange that my CSM are so concerned about accidentally hitting my cultist tarpit.
Because The blood spilled would be unworthy!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 10:55:27
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
New Zealand
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haha good point, their souls are already mine, why waste the ammo!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 11:20:07
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Focused Fire Warrior
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The earth caste can protect from the drawbacks of ion weaponry, just not in a cost effective manner.
I think it makes perfect sense fluff wise, maybe not a 1/6 chance but becoming more lenient with the conservation of life in the pursuit of a cause is a pretty standard trope.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 11:59:44
Subject: Re:What's with killing your own guys?
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Deadly Dire Avenger
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Things that are just as likely (or more) to happen: (as a crisis suit taking a wound due to it gets hot)
1: Surviving a direct hit from an orbital bombardment (1/6)
2: Land raider getting stuck in a shrubbery (1/6)
3: Ewok arrows penetrating terminator armour (1/6)
4: A space marine missing the broadside of a barn (1/3)
5: A 40k gamer killing a power axe wielding Space marine, with his bare hands (1/18) (ws2 str3 a1)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 12:59:39
Subject: Re:What's with killing your own guys?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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Things that are just as likely (or more) to happen: (as a crisis suit taking a wound due to it gets hot)
1: Surviving a direct hit from an orbital bombardment (1/6)
2: Land raider getting stuck in a shrubbery (1/6)
3: Ewok arrows penetrating terminator armour (1/6)
4: A space marine missing the broadside of a barn (1/3)
5: A 40k gamer killing a power axe wielding Space marine, with his bare hands (1/18) (ws2 str3 a1)
lol! That does kind of put things in perspective!
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Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 13:17:51
Subject: Re:What's with killing your own guys?
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Preacher of the Emperor
Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror
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Now why would you put us at Str 3? I think S3 is reserved for people who go to the gym and can lift more than a plate of nachos
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17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"
-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 13:22:21
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Redbeard wrote:But it ends up being a shift in how they think because of the rate of failure. The game doesn't have enough granularity to represent reasonable field testing, which should be as low as 1-2%. So, instead, we see them dragging a weapon with a 17% critical failure rate onto the field. 17% failure rate means it isn't ready for field testing yet.
Sure, it doesn't mean "they're dead" - but it means they can't keep fighting.
I'd rather see the game get rid of all these effects. Since they can't do a realistic, low failure rate, they shouldn't have one at all, rather than having a massively unrealistic one.
I think it's good fun, and the level of abstraction/frequency generally works out well enough for balance. The granularity issues of the d6 are just part of 40k.
Lilrys wrote:Things that are just as likely (or more) to happen: (as a crisis suit taking a wound due to it gets hot)
1: Surviving a direct hit from an orbital bombardment (1/6)
2: Land raider getting stuck in a shrubbery (1/6)
3: Ewok arrows penetrating terminator armour (1/6)
4: A space marine missing the broadside of a barn (1/3)
5: A 40k gamer killing a power axe wielding Space marine, with his bare hands (1/18) (ws2 str3 a1)
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 13:38:16
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
New Bedford, MA
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As a DA player, if you don't get a rush from the risk of firing gets hot weapons then you are either some form of eldar or in the wrong game. Blame the earth caste or your techmarines for that stuff blowing up if you have to.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 13:45:29
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Preacher of the Emperor
Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror
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Ironwill13791 wrote:As a DA player, if you don't get a rush from the risk of firing gets hot weapons then you are either some form of eldar or in the wrong game. Blame the earth caste or your techmarines for that stuff blowing up if you have to.
There is always that rush. It gets alot worse when youre playing IG and your entire platoon loses its purpose because the plasma gunners decided to blow themselves up!
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17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"
-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 14:49:48
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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generalchaos34 wrote: Ironwill13791 wrote:As a DA player, if you don't get a rush from the risk of firing gets hot weapons then you are either some form of eldar or in the wrong game. Blame the earth caste or your techmarines for that stuff blowing up if you have to.
There is always that rush. It gets alot worse when youre playing IG and your entire platoon loses its purpose because the plasma gunners decided to blow themselves up!
They just gain a new purpose: Meat Shield.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 14:50:42
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos
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Redbeard wrote:What gives? These numbers are so far outside the realm of the realistic as to be laughable. No real-world military force would field a weapon that rendered its own user incapacitated close to 17% of the time it was used. Real-world soldiers reject weapons that jam too often (in Vietnam, US troops would take up captured AKs from the Viet Cong as their M-16s had tighter tolerances and therefore were not as reliable in the jungle conditions), and that's just a failure to fire, not maiming the operator. A 33% failure rate on an expensive piece of gear like a Riptide suit would be equivalent to the same failure rate in a multi-million dollar plane or tank in the modern army, and would be viewed as completely unacceptable.
I just want to say something about this.
Gets Hot doesn't always mean the user dies while firing. In the Only War RPG book, it touches on how Gets Hot can also be understood.
In Only War, most weapons will jam on a roll of 95% or higher. That means most weapons typically have a 5% chance to jam, and will only jam when fired in bursts or fully automatically. That's much more understandable than the ~17% in 40k.
Also, Plasma weapons have a fun additional rule. When their weapon jams, instead of it being because of a misaligned cartridge or electronic malfunction, it's because the plasma overheat caused the gun to melt. Now, instead of continuing with his buddies, the weaponless Guardsman will have to hoof it back to base to get a Techpriest take a look. Maybe he got his hands burned, maybe he was quick enough to drop it before it could, but either way he's weaponless and needs to retreat. Alternatively, if the Guardsman did get major burns on his hands, it'll be damn near impossible to hold any other weapon without extreme pain. So he'll have to retreat so the doc can rub some aloe on.
As for the Riptide, why do people overclock their computer? It's not supposed to be running that fast, but sometimes you just want to go a bit farther than what's safely recommended. The Riptide has the massive Nova Reactor to power the suit, but sometimes the pilot needs just a little bit more oomph and decideds to kick it up a notch. It's not the manufacturer's fault the suit caught fire and exploded, it's the pilot's fault for trying to overclock the suit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 15:14:22
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Except that the Riptide has a regular fusion reactor as well as the experimental nova reactor, and the nova reactor is only there to overcharge the Riptide's systems.
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 15:18:39
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos
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Sure, that's what they tell you. But what's really happening is the normal reactor just powers the internal stuff, the Nova powers the external weapons and movement. ;P
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 15:23:28
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight
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An inspirational commissar once said "No sacrifice, no victory!"
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Space Wolves: 3770
Orks: 3000
Chaos Daemons: 1750
Warriors of Chaos: 2000
My avatar |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/17 15:52:54
Subject: What's with killing your own guys?
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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MarsNZ wrote:Fond memories of 2e where Chaos was the faction who 'souped-up' their plasma technology to a level which threatened the user.
It wasn't because it was souped-up, its because the Traitors had the original plasma weapons which were still experimental tech at the time of the Heresy (according to the fluff at the time), and were therefore less reliable and prone to malfunction.
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