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There are way too many ways of killing off your own guys coming into the game. I really noticed it with the new Tau codex, specifically because of how it doesn't make any sense with their existing fluff, but on further reflection it extends through most of the game.

When I say that it contradicts existing Tau fluff, well, there's even in the new codex the following paragraph:

"Plasma technology is used by many races, despite its highly unstable nature. Tau favor a form of the technology that forgoes a degree of stopping power for an increased level of safety for the operator." - Page 66.

That's always been one of the things that separated the Tau from the Imperials - the unwillingness to view troops as expendable. And yet, on the same page, we now see the Tau willing to kill off their own troops with Ion weapons. Not only that, but the newest, most advanced technological battle suit they have available damages its own systems 33% of the time when activating its Nova Reactor.

What gives? These numbers are so far outside the realm of the realistic as to be laughable. No real-world military force would field a weapon that rendered its own user incapacitated close to 17% of the time it was used. Real-world soldiers reject weapons that jam too often (in Vietnam, US troops would take up captured AKs from the Viet Cong as their M-16s had tighter tolerances and therefore were not as reliable in the jungle conditions), and that's just a failure to fire, not maiming the operator. A 33% failure rate on an expensive piece of gear like a Riptide suit would be equivalent to the same failure rate in a multi-million dollar plane or tank in the modern army, and would be viewed as completely unacceptable.

Does this add anything worthwhile to the game? I admit, I don't play with everyone. Maybe there are perverse people out there who enjoy watching their models die to their own guns. I don't think the game is improved with Gets Hot, Perils of the Warp, Turning My Own Guy Into a Spawn, and other such rules. There are better ways to balance things.

It sounds to me that the Tau are sacrificing effectiveness for safety.

 Redbeard wrote:
There are way too many ways of killing off your own guys coming into the game. I really noticed it with the new Tau codex, specifically because of how it doesn't make any sense with their existing fluff, but on further reflection it extends through most of the game.

When I say that it contradicts existing Tau fluff, well, there's even in the new codex the following paragraph:

"Plasma technology is used by many races, despite its highly unstable nature. Tau favor a form of the technology that forgoes a degree of stopping power for an increased level of safety for the operator." - Page 66.

That's always been one of the things that separated the Tau from the Imperials - the unwillingness to view troops as expendable. And yet, on the same page, we now see the Tau willing to kill off their own troops with Ion weapons. Not only that, but the newest, most advanced technological battle suit they have available damages its own systems 33% of the time when activating its Nova Reactor.

What gives? These numbers are so far outside the realm of the realistic as to be laughable. No real-world military force would field a weapon that rendered its own user incapacitated close to 17% of the time it was used. Real-world soldiers reject weapons that jam too often (in Vietnam, US troops would take up captured AKs from the Viet Cong as their M-16s had tighter tolerances and therefore were not as reliable in the jungle conditions), and that's just a failure to fire, not maiming the operator. A 33% failure rate on an expensive piece of gear like a Riptide suit would be equivalent to the same failure rate in a multi-million dollar plane or tank in the modern army, and would be viewed as completely unacceptable.

Does this add anything worthwhile to the game? I admit, I don't play with everyone. Maybe there are perverse people out there who enjoy watching their models die to their own guns. I don't think the game is improved with Gets Hot, Perils of the Warp, Turning My Own Guy Into a Spawn, and other such rules. There are better ways to balance things.

They're getting desperate to win the war it sounds like.

When your options are

A. Use a crappy weapon that won't kill you, but won't kill your target, meaning you have a 100% chance of dying, or

B. Using an extremely powerful weapon that has a 1 in 6 chance of killing you, but will kill your target every time,

You're probably going to pick B. Think of it this way. If you were in the world of 40k, and you were a Guardsman, would you want the lasgun that can barely kill anything, letting you get torn to shreds, or would you pick the gun that shoots with the power of a small sun and have a small risk of killing yourself.

It's one of those "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few," (something I believe the Greater Good is very adamant about) If the Tau have to risk one dude in an experimental battlesuit to save an entire battlegroup, they'll make that trade every day.

Essentially, they're starting down the path that I'm sure the Imperial Guard started down at some point. They don't necessarily want to make these sacrifices, but unfortunately they don't have a choice.

As for the Vietnam comparisons, US troops weren't fighting against Daemons the size of houses, unstoppable hive fleets of insect reptillian creatures that have devoured entire universes, unstoppable millenia old killing machines, insane supersoldiers infused with the powers of hell, endless waves of soccer hooligan mushroom people with the ability to tear open the fabric of space and time with a 2x4 and some duct tape, and space elves that torture them for the heck of it, where failure meant the destruction of their entire race.

Plus that argument uses logic, something that has been proven to be almost nonexistant in the 40k universe.

and the 1 in 6 chance to kill yourself is an abstraction of the dice mechanic in the game. "Real life" plasma guns don't fail quite that often.

 Redbeard wrote:
Maybe there are perverse people out there who enjoy watching their models die to their own guns.

Yep. I think the dark humor of the setting is enhanced by the casual disregard for life among military commanders. Heck, I think the "no firing into melee" rule is unfluffy for most of the factions. Sure, Marines, Tau, and Eldar have enough respect for their comrades to hold off, but why would Orks regard it as anything but a hilarious prank? It fits with the IG/Tyranid disregard for expendable troops, Chaos and Dark Eldar would have no qualms about betraying their allies for immediate gain, etc.

I do agree that the section about the Pathfinder ion rifle is a bit of a departure from the standard Tau fluff. I got the impression that the rank and file are unaware of the lethal side effects of the weapon. But if it's supposed to show a developing callousness in the upper ranks of the Tau, I can see that as a reasonable development of the Tau being influenced by the grimdark that they encounter as they expand.

 Redbeard wrote:
There are way too many ways of killing off your own guys coming into the game. I really noticed it with the new Tau codex, specifically because of how it doesn't make any sense with their existing fluff, but on further reflection it extends through most of the game.

When I say that it contradicts existing Tau fluff, well, there's even in the new codex the following paragraph:

"Plasma technology is used by many races, despite its highly unstable nature. Tau favor a form of the technology that forgoes a degree of stopping power for an increased level of safety for the operator." - Page 66.

That's always been one of the things that separated the Tau from the Imperials - the unwillingness to view troops as expendable. And yet, on the same page, we now see the Tau willing to kill off their own troops with Ion weapons. Not only that, but the newest, most advanced technological battle suit they have available damages its own systems 33% of the time when activating its Nova Reactor.

What gives? These numbers are so far outside the realm of the realistic as to be laughable. No real-world military force would field a weapon that rendered its own user incapacitated close to 17% of the time it was used. Real-world soldiers reject weapons that jam too often (in Vietnam, US troops would take up captured AKs from the Viet Cong as their M-16s had tighter tolerances and therefore were not as reliable in the jungle conditions), and that's just a failure to fire, not maiming the operator. A 33% failure rate on an expensive piece of gear like a Riptide suit would be equivalent to the same failure rate in a multi-million dollar plane or tank in the modern army, and would be viewed as completely unacceptable.

Does this add anything worthwhile to the game? I admit, I don't play with everyone. Maybe there are perverse people out there who enjoy watching their models die to their own guns. I don't think the game is improved with Gets Hot, Perils of the Warp, Turning My Own Guy Into a Spawn, and other such rules. There are better ways to balance things.

And remember that "losing your last wound" in 40k does not equal outright "model is dead", but rather "weather dead or gravely injured or otherwise incapasitated and unable to fight."
Removing wounds is simply the game's abstract way of tabulating casulties.

For the Tau, their newer systems and potential overheats aren't nessessarily fatal to the poor b using the weapon/system, but rather 'something's gone horribly wrong and he can no longer function effectively in game terms'

It's the same thing for things like Space Marine's suffering a plasma overheat. The marine probably isn't actually dead, but rather has had his gauntlets melted into a burned mess and he needs some time in the apothecarion and perhaps a shiny bionic or two.
Same deal with Perils - the psyker may not actually be possessed/dead, but he's got the mother of all migraines and can't manage more than a brain-fart for now, or the dumb gak who runs through difficult terrain and breaks his leg! (he's not *really* dead, but in game terms, he's now useless to his squad so he's abstractly removed from play and sent to the medics)

As for turning into Spawn... You do know that the Gods' favor isn't always good for your health, right?! (Tzeentch especially since he's forever changing his mind mid-bless!)

Gets Hot doesn't always represent the model actually dying because of his gun.

It could be the gun malfunctions and simply injures the operator.

The Nova Reactor could represent the suit being slightly damaged by a malfunction(represented by losing a wound)

A plasmagun guardsmen, naturally being charged with an expensive and valuable piece of equipment, is ordered that if his gun malfunctions he is to immediatly head to the rear and get it looked at by a Techpriest. Either way, the model no longer participates in the battle.


Its just a mechanic that sometimes things go wrong. Due to the rule set we must abstract the situation.

Bludbaff wrote:


Heck, I think the "no firing into melee" rule is unfluffy for most of the factions. Sure, Marines, Tau, and Eldar have enough respect for their comrades to hold off, but why would Orks regard it as anything but a hilarious prank?

Literally LOL! Very funny. The mental image this conjures is hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.

Experiment 626 wrote:

It's the same thing for things like Space Marine's suffering a plasma overheat. The marine probably isn't actually dead, but rather has had his gauntlets melted into a burned mess and he needs some time in the apothecarion and perhaps a shiny bionic or two.

But what about the score of guardsmen that have boiled alive in chimerae? They're not dead...right? Right?!

For the new ion tech in particular... the Tau are at least well aware of the risks and (appear to) get a choice about whether to use this. Your average Guardsman will be told "you WILL be using this today. That's what you get for being just smart enough to operate it. For the Emperor!"

Plus, I get the impression they're field-testing it with an eye to improving its safety, and imagine the same process had to happen to get to where they are now with their current plasma.

Heck, I think the "no firing into melee" rule is unfluffy for most of the factions. Sure, Marines, Tau, and Eldar have enough respect for their comrades to hold off, but why would Orks regard it as anything but a hilarious prank?

In 2nd ed you COULD fire into melee and the above quote was standard practice for my Orks. Charge 40 Grots into the squad of marines to pin them down and then start blasting! lol Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Either way it was always fun.

Plus, I get the impression they're field-testing it with an eye to improving its safety, and imagine the same process had to happen to get to where they are now with their current plasma.

My impression as well. Since the Ion weapons are only available on 2 (it is only 2 right?) units right now I read it more as a field test than an actual shift in how they think.

Tycho wrote:

Plus, I get the impression they're field-testing it with an eye to improving its safety, and imagine the same process had to happen to get to where they are now with their current plasma.

My impression as well. Since the Ion weapons are only available on 2 (it is only 2 right?) units right now I read it more as a field test than an actual shift in how they think.

I'm also going with this impression. Even though they might "lab test" it to safety usually (to keep the most soldiers alive), they are probably getting desperate to win the various wars so they rushed it out to field testing

But it ends up being a shift in how they think because of the rate of failure. The game doesn't have enough granularity to represent reasonable field testing, which should be as low as 1-2%. So, instead, we see them dragging a weapon with a 17% critical failure rate onto the field. 17% failure rate means it isn't ready for field testing yet.

Sure, it doesn't mean "they're dead" - but it means they can't keep fighting.

I'd rather see the game get rid of all these effects. Since they can't do a realistic, low failure rate, they shouldn't have one at all, rather than having a massively unrealistic one.

 Redbeard wrote:
I'd rather see the game get rid of all these effects. Since they can't do a realistic, low failure rate, they shouldn't have one at all, rather than having a massively unrealistic one.

And realism is - after all - the name of the game.

I'd rather see the game get rid of all these effects. Since they can't do a realistic, low failure rate, they shouldn't have one at all, rather than having a massively unrealistic one.

In terms of a 40k plasma gun - What's a "realistic failure rate" for something that generates a miniature sun?

 Xenocidal Maniac wrote:

Bludbaff wrote:


Heck, I think the "no firing into melee" rule is unfluffy for most of the factions. Sure, Marines, Tau, and Eldar have enough respect for their comrades to hold off, but why would Orks regard it as anything but a hilarious prank?

Literally LOL! Very funny. The mental image this conjures is hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.

I'd be all for Orks firing into Close Combat and hitting random models.

Tycho wrote:

My impression as well. Since the Ion weapons are only available on 2 (it is only 2 right?) units right now I read it more as a field test than an actual shift in how they think.

they can have 3

And yeah Tau is very interested in testing weapons, even if the weapons are dangerous they are tirelessy trying to improve on their designs and protection, so in the timeline of the codex these weapons does not have a solution currently.

I count 8 different units that can take ion weapons. (Commanders, Bodyguards, Crisis Teams, Riptides, Pathfinders, Interceptor Drones, Razorsharks, and Hammerheads.) I think the big difference between the Tau and the Imperial forces (or Ork forces) who use personnel endangering weaponry is that all the Tau ion weapons have safe modes that won't endanger the firer. I also note on further examination that only two of these units would suffer an automatic casualty from a failed Gets Hot roll.

I think that an extended range of ion weaponry is just one more way that this Codex has expanded on the army in a positive way, showing how even with their advanced technology, they leave the decision on whether or not to use the potentially lethal firing mode to the warrior in question. I love this 'dex.

Guard, Dark Eldar, Nids, Necrons, Chaos, and Orcs would fire into their own to achieve victory.

How many times in Guard fluff have they bombarded their own.

lets break out the good old d100 and a huge table to determine the results of gets hot. Lets do a d12 for psyker perils results. A d 4 for mishap. A d8 for vehicle damage. A d20, for uh... something else, reserves I guess.

Lets have huge tables and tonnes of modifiers, and now we can more realistically represent the outcomes and chances of each while playing.

But now people are going to complain that it takes 16 times as long to resolve anything, and referring to more tables table for each resolution.

The point is that everything in this game is done with a simple d6, and 1 in 6 is the lowest chance on a single d6 you can get. Maybe if for gets hot they did something like if you roll a one, roll it again, and if it is still 1, then you take a wound. Short of that, there is no way of really adjusting that.

Just removing the rules for those things takes all the risk/reward gamble out of it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bludbaff wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
Maybe there are perverse people out there who enjoy watching their models die to their own guns.

Yep. I think the dark humor of the setting is enhanced by the casual disregard for life among military commanders. Heck, I think the "no firing into melee" rule is unfluffy for most of the factions. Sure, Marines, Tau, and Eldar have enough respect for their comrades to hold off, but why would Orks regard it as anything but a hilarious prank? It fits with the IG/Tyranid disregard for expendable troops, Chaos and Dark Eldar would have no qualms about betraying their allies for immediate gain, etc.

Special rule for the next ork codex, this has to be done. Ork's can always fire into combat, but a roll of a 1 to hit means you hit your own squad

Should be a guard order, too.

And Krieg pass this order automically xd

Tau have a long history of field-testing unstable weapons.

Anyone remember the original rules for Rail Rifles? They had hard-wired targetting systems that would melt the Pathfinder's brain if they misfired. That's why the second iteration only had them on drones!

 Bobthehero wrote:
Should be a guard order, too.

And Krieg pass this order automically xd

I would not like to see IG being able to fire into close combat. While the higher level commanders have the attitude of the WWI era generals that thousands of men are expendable, the actual trooper doing the shooting would have a very different opinion about his own worth and value of his comrades. I think guardsman would be reluctant to risk their comrades lives by not shooting into combat and also not do it because they would not want it done to themselves. Humans are not skaven.

Well, make it something available to commissars and others

JWhex wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Should be a guard order, too.

And Krieg pass this order automically xd

I would not like to see IG being able to fire into close combat. While the higher level commanders have the attitude of the WWI era generals that thousands of men are expendable, the actual trooper doing the shooting would have a very different opinion about his own worth and value of his comrades. I think guardsman would be reluctant to risk their comrades lives by not shooting into combat and also not do it because they would not want it done to themselves. Humans are not skaven.

The Krieg wouldn't care honestly and would have little to no hesitation following such and order.
I also highly doubt too many grunts are going to disobay the Commissar pointing his bolt pistol between their eyes and ordering them to "take them all out." And even if that first grunt hesitates, the guy beside him who's now wearing Trooper Jimmy as a fine red paste certainly isn't going to hesitate!

Orks IMHO should have it as a special rule added into the "It's a Grot's Life" rule. Orks can shoot into a combat that involves only Grots on enemies, but give the enemy unit an auto 4+ cover save. Any passed cover saves equals a grot being auto-removed as it catches the bullet instead! Template weapons simply kill everything though - grots and enemies!

There's nothing in the tau dex that has to fire gets hot. There's safe mode for all of them.

JWhex wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Should be a guard order, too.

And Krieg pass this order automically xd

I would not like to see IG being able to fire into close combat. While the higher level commanders have the attitude of the WWI era generals that thousands of men are expendable, the actual trooper doing the shooting would have a very different opinion about his own worth and value of his comrades. I think guardsman would be reluctant to risk their comrades lives by not shooting into combat and also not do it because they would not want it done to themselves. Humans are not skaven.

Okay then, needs to be an order from the CCS, and only to a squad/platoon with an attached Commissar/Commissar Lord

Experiment 626 wrote:

JWhex wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Should be a guard order, too.

And Krieg pass this order automically xd

I would not like to see IG being able to fire into close combat. While the higher level commanders have the attitude of the WWI era generals that thousands of men are expendable, the actual trooper doing the shooting would have a very different opinion about his own worth and value of his comrades. I think guardsman would be reluctant to risk their comrades lives by not shooting into combat and also not do it because they would not want it done to themselves. Humans are not skaven.

The Krieg wouldn't care honestly and would have little to no hesitation following such and order.
I also highly doubt too many grunts are going to disobay the Commissar pointing his bolt pistol between their eyes and ordering them to "take them all out." And even if that first grunt hesitates, the guy beside him who's now wearing Trooper Jimmy as a fine red paste certainly isn't going to hesitate!

From a rules perspective I wouldnt mind that a commisar could issue such an order to a single unit because it fits in with the way they are portrayed. However if the IG squad fails its LD check to obey the order I would have the commissar removed from play as a casualty of "friendly fire".

JWhex wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Should be a guard order, too.

And Krieg pass this order automically xd

I would not like to see IG being able to fire into close combat. While the higher level commanders have the attitude of the WWI era generals that thousands of men are expendable, the actual trooper doing the shooting would have a very different opinion about his own worth and value of his comrades. I think guardsman would be reluctant to risk their comrades lives by not shooting into combat and also not do it because they would not want it done to themselves. Humans are not skaven.

Should be for at least Artillery and tanks, as they usually are the ones doing this kind of thing.

Maybe make it an order that has to be passed with a negative modifier for infantry, as they're more likely to know the people they're shooting at. Modifier is removed by commissars

Kreig shouldn't suffer a negative modifier though, they're know for doing stuff like this all the time.

If you think about it, the plasma is only on Crisis suits, so they endeavored to make it safe.....for the suit. Im thinking it works more in line with the idea that are trying to preserve their equipment as much as they are into saving lives, even in the codex it states that they wont sacrifice drones if they have to. It even says that commanders that suffer too many casualties are shunned. The real question is, are those living or materiel casualties?

As for the dangerous guns, they readily state that the earth caste cooks up crazy inventions and tosses them over to the fire caste without any real testing, letting the grunts figure it out for them. Thats why i think of some of their equipment seems a bit...odd at times, because egghead scientists are building guns and not getting input from the soldiers.