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Giant vs Ghorgon during a game the other day...

Both have initiative 3. As a courtesy to my opponent I let him roll his attacks first knowing that they are technically simultaneous. He inflicts two wounds.

I roll up my special attack and get Yell and Bawl. So the question comes up, do the Ghorgon attacks count or did it not actually fight and the Giant wins by 2?

Half the store argued that since the Ghorgon and Giant have the same initiative the Ghorgon's attacks count, the Giant takes two wounds but wins the combat by 2.

The other half of the store argued that since Yell and Bawl reads they don't "actually fight if they have not already done so this round" that this means Initiative 4 and higher gets to fight, 3 and less don't get to fight. Therefore it was a moot point rolling up the Ghorgon attacks.

Any ideas? I've looked at several FAQs but couldn't find anything to support or refute either.

Giant's yell is activated.

both the models go at the same time, Ghorgon rolls two wounds but the giants loud noises would not have allowed the Ghorgon to go, in short since the giant has a rule saying no fighting that occurred at the same time as a monster that has no special rules to impact this, or a higher initiative, the giants rule wins and the wounds did not happen.

The real question is, why where you using a Ghorgon?

If attacks are made simultaniously with Yell and Bawl they still get resolved, they simply have no effect on combat rez.

Yell and Bawl only makes attacks that come after it null and void. So I2, I1, and ASL don't get to fight.

The same way if the giant's opponent ever got ASF it might kill the giant before even rolling to the table.

Your Giant suffers two wounds, because these were suffered at the time he Yelled and Bawled.

Yell and Bawled then states that you automatically win the combat by two, so this happens, the wounds your Giant suffered will therefore, not count to CR.

Yell and Bawl only says all remaining attacks don't go ahead, but the Ghorgon has already made his (he did so at the same time). Only slower things (i.e. I1, I2 and stuff with GWs) would not get to attack.

TLDR: Your Giant suffers 2 wounds but you win the combat by 2.

and the ghorgon loses frenzy but probably sticks around because he is stubborn 10.

Just to throw in a different spin. What if the giant had only 2 wounds left and got the yell and bawl result?
Does the Ghorgon still test to break? How do ye think that scenario would work out?

The giant would die due to the wounds. Easy enough. Now the Ghorgon is no longer in combat and therefore can't take a break test. The "lose by 2" becomes meaningless.

Dont forget the giant might fall on the ghorgon.

Davall wrote:
The giant would die due to the wounds. Easy enough. Now the Ghorgon is no longer in combat and therefore can't take a break test. The "lose by 2" becomes meaningless.

Not to mention I believe there is a specific rule saying if you wipe out your opponent you automatically win CC, even if you would have lost combat rez.

 streamdragon wrote:

Davall wrote:
The giant would die due to the wounds. Easy enough. Now the Ghorgon is no longer in combat and therefore can't take a break test. The "lose by 2" becomes meaningless.

Not to mention I believe there is a specific rule saying if you wipe out your opponent you automatically win CC, even if you would have lost combat rez.

Interesting. And Messy.

So the giant falls when he dies, but the falling takes place before break tests, because the rule says it can count for combat res (if a yell and ball didn't ignore all that).
The big problem is that killing all your enemies says you automatically win combat. Yelling and balling says you automatically win combat by 2.
Either way, the giant would die, the giant would fall.
Having lost combat by 2, and automatically won combat, what happens with blood greed?

-Matt

GW agents arrive and decide to nerf giants next edition.

 sandant wrote:
GW agents arrive and decide to nerf giants next edition.

Not sure how even they could manage that. and its not like many would notice.

If the Giant died, whether he fell and hurt the Ghorgon or not, the Ghorgon would automatically win combat since its opponent was wiped out. It doesn't matter if he would have lost the combat due to CR. He wins the combat and can automatically make a reform.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

What it came down to was the phrase: they won't actually fight if they haven't already done so this round.

Somone asked, has the Ghorgon already fought yet this round? The answer some argued was "no, it hasn't fought already this round. it fights at the same time the Giant is Yelling." So that spurred even more arguing that if initiative is tied, they fight simultaneously so they both fight. Others argued that Codex specific rules trump the BRB so the wounds don't count because Yell and Bawl stops all combat.

oops. I almost forgot the best arguement. Is a Ghorgon really going to stop mid-swing because of a Giant yelling. Someone replied that baseball players check swing all the time. It got pretty ridiculous at one point.

 The Shadow wrote:
If the Giant died, whether he fell and hurt the Ghorgon or not, the Ghorgon would automatically win combat since its opponent was wiped out. It doesn't matter if he would have lost the combat due to CR. He wins the combat and can automatically make a reform.

But yell and ball isn't CR. It's auto win by 2, ignore normal combat res.
That's why it's a problem, we have 2 rules that say the other side auto wins, and one of those sides is dead.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

That's why it's a problem, we have 2 rules that say the other side auto wins, and one of those sides is dead.

-Matt

I agree. Furthermore, the Giant's rule is more specific than the BRB rule and thus takes precedence.

...except the Giant is now dead, so he's not on the table anymore. So can he really win combat?

The question as to whether or not the Ghorgon's fought this round is silly. Of course he has! At the same time the Giant Yelled. If someone tries to say that, because they go at the same time, therefore the Ghorgon hasn't fought, there's nothing stopping you from turning it around and saying, "but because they go at the same time, the Giant hasn't Yelled".

In the event of 2 choices I always pick the one that doesn't break the game. It doesn't work for a model to flee a combat that not longer exists.

Warpsolution wrote:
...except the Giant is now dead, so he's not on the table anymore. So can he really win combat?

Of course he can, RAW, as Yell and Bawl explicitely states that the Giant's side wins the fight.

Fluff-wise, you could argue that the enemy is still afrad of the yell and goes running whereas the Giant starts to tumble and then falls to the ground, slain.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
...except the Giant is now dead, so he's not on the table anymore. So can he really win combat?

Of course he can, RAW, as Yell and Bawl explicitely states that the Giant's side wins the fight.

Fluff-wise, you could argue that the enemy is still afrad of the yell and goes running whereas the Giant starts to tumble and then falls to the ground, slain.

If I have a giant and 4 black orcs with great weapons, and I'm fighting a single brettonian damsel who charged into the flank of the black orcs, the giant charged into the front of the damsel. The giant goes at init 3 and yells and balls. The damsel goes at init 3, and slaps the giant dead, delivery his last wound with her S3 attack.
The Damsel has a wound, a charge and a flank for +3.
The black orcs don't swing, due to yell and ball.
The giant doesn't fall on anyone when he dies.

I would say the Orcs win by 2, because the Gaint Yelled and Balled (even through he is now dead).
If you say the giant is dead, so yell and ball doesn't do anything anymore, then shouldn't the black orcs swing with their choppas at init 2?


-Matt

@Sigvatr: my point is that the fight is over, so how can the Giant win?

@HawaiiMatt: I suppose I would have to say that, because the combat isn't over like it is in the previous examples, yeah, the Giant's rule would still apply.

Did you refer to me? I'm a bit confused now :/

I said that Yell and Ball means that if you ever get to Yell And Ball, the combat ends immediately. Even if struck down at the same time, Yell and Ball comes into play because it came into play at the very same time the enemy struck. Both attacks are valid attacks, thus the Giant gets killed and at the same time, Yell kicks in and makes th Giant's side win the combat by 2, no matter what happens next.

If a normal model strikes another model at the same initiative step, it still deals a wound to the enemy model, even if it's killed in the process. I don't know why Yell should be treated differently.

The only difference is that with Yell, the combat immediately ends and this special difference is adressed in Yell's rules in the (O&)G army book. I don't see, RAW-wise, any reason for why the enemy side should now not take a LD test.

@Warpsolution: ...because the Yell special rule explicitely states that the Giant's side won the combat by 2. It doesn't matter what happens after the attack. The Giant wins.

I get what you're saying. I just think there's another step involved. Let me see if I can explain myself better.

Yell and Bawl says the combat ends, the Giant's side wins by 2. Even if he dies after/at the same time.
If the Giant was the only unit of your army involved in the combat, the Giant dies and the combat is over. The enemy is no longer in combat. No break test.

But in Matt's example, the Giant's death doesn't end the combat, so there's still a break test that needs taking. At which point, the Giant's side would win by 2.

I mean, say 15 Goblins are fighting a lone Vampire Lord who's down to 1 Wound. The Vampire kills 9 Goblins, but then the last 6 manage to put on that last wound. The Vampire would win the combat by 8, but he's dead. So combat over. Right?

Yes. If a combat is ended because one side wipes the other out, the remaining side wins no matter what and therefore there's no break test.

It is hard to take a test that requires you to be in combat when you are no longer in combat. Some might dare to claim it would be impossible. The audacity.

Giant rule seems to modify the

Who is the Winner

Section of the BRB. That changes the rules for CR = winner. But it doesn't modify the section that comes after it that I can see:

Wipeout!

There is a logical progression in the BRB in regards to those two sections. Because it is possible to score a higher CR but be wiped out. Which is why Wipeout comes later and is the last word (page/section/whatever) in the BRB on the subject.

Further, all the rules for fleeing reference a unit in which to flee from. A unit that no longer exists because he's been done deadified. If you want to uber RAW this, you're going to be tripping over the next few pages as you try and flee from a model that's in someone's backpack on the floor.

I'm not thinking the ghorgon is taking a break test.
I'm thinking the ghorgon loses frenzy and gets a reform.
The giant wins by 2, which breaks frenzy and bonus attacks that ghorgon has wracked up. The giant being dead means no break test for the ghorgon.
The ghorgon not winning combat outright means no over-run.

I think yell in ball is more specific and I stick with the giant winning all the way up to the point of a break test. Since no opponent is left to break from, no break test is taken.

-Matt

I think wipeout takes precedence here.

I think Matt's last post pretty much covers it. The Ghorgon loses combat but doesn't test to breakk because of the wipeout.