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Alrighty, so, which is better? More dakka at a lower strength and higher AP? The one shot that can wreak? Has anyone done the math on this yet? (If no one has, I'll start on it and post it, but I'd like to save myself the time if someone else has it.)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/520681.page

Verdict: HYMP do more damage than RR at most common targets except for TEQ, where they are equal, and AV14, where the RR is weak enough that you really don't want to bother.

RR to have a distinct advantage when they cause instant death to multi-wound targets, and they have a longer range.

I've done the math. Against infantry, the HYMP is better than the HRR against everything I tested (MC's (T6 3+), Plague Marines, TEQ, MEQ, Ork, GEQ). I won't post the table because it's huge. (edit: actually yes equal against TEQ as above poster says)

Against AV the HYMP is better at putting hullpoints down against AV10-13, but cannot hurt AV14 (which tbh the HRR isn't great at either). The HRR however has a marginally better percentage chance at outright destruction from penetrating hits.

Overall the HYMP appears to simply be better at everything, basically. Where the heavy rail rifle can come in handy is it's much longer range (imho this isn't that big an advantage given table size, 36" is still very good range) and has many more targets to ID with s8. I think if you're looking to optimize, the HYMP is clearly the better choice. I think if AV14 is a concern for you, you are better off dealing with it some other way. It's a shame because I personally think the new HRR Broadside model looks amazing. If you're just playing friendlies and aren't that concerned about optimizing, the HRR isn't terrible, it does alright. It's practically identical anti-infantry against heavy targets (MC's, TEQ, MEQ). It's nowhere near as good against light targets with a 4+ or worse save, though. For AV it does alright.

Rant (spoilered for negativity!):


edit: Alright! Finally home and fixed my poor maths, and have time to format this table. This is numbers for a single broadside, firing their TL HRR or TL HYMP only. Secondary weapons are irrelevant as they can be paired with either main weapon. It's tested at BS3, but adding BS via for example markerlights will only skew further in favour of the HYMP. If anyone thinks I've missed a modifier or calculated something incorrectly, let me know. The first row is how many hullpoints a single broadside does each time it fires with that weapon. The second row is the percentage chance it will outright explode a target in one round of shooting.

AV10 AV11 AV12 AV13 AV14 RR - HP's 0.63 0.5 0.38 0.25 0.13 Destroy% 25.00% 19.00% 13.00% 6.00% 0.00% HYMP - HP's 2 1.5 1 0.5 0 Destroy% 25.00% 17.00% 8.00% 0.00% 0.00%

You're coming out a little lower on Hull Points than I do with calculations. I can see the reason:

The way I mathhammer hullpoints is to count each glance as 1 HP, but each penetrate as (5/6*1+1/6*3) to represent the chance of exploding. So AP3+ weapons do 1.33 HP per penetrate, AP2 do 1.666, and AP1 do 2 HP per penetrate. In this case I'd get RR at 1.125 HP against AV10 and HYMP at 2.5.
Do you think that's a legitimate way to calculate HP damage?

i think so, since AP1 rarely DOESNT explode a vehicle (especially open-topped) if it pens it.

Before the new tau dex dropped i love my S10 AP1 railguns popping AV14 LR tanks on turn 1, disallowing a pie plate for thinning my orky hordes down as they walked across the field. That wont happen anymore. I can understand the range nerf but why a -2 to strength? -1 maybe but 2!? yup never fielding that again.

It's a good estimate, but will generally overvalue AP1 weapons. In your calculations, you decided to count an explode result as being equivalent to 3 HP of damage. If the vehicle you're shooting at has fewer HP, either natively (land speeders) or through combat damage, this isn't going to hold. Similarly, it fails to account for the increased likelihood of explode results on open-topped vehicles. An autocannon will get twice as many explode results on an open-topped damage table. A meltagun only gets 33% more. And of course, sometimes you don't need to destroy a vehicle to remove the threat.

It's a nice approximation, but it fails to account for a few variables that pop up from time to time. You can account for some of that on a case by case basis.

To put both of their performance vs infantry in perspective... 12 pulse rifle shots equal or better the performance of a HYMP against all of the infantry targets AND AV10; and 9 sniper drone shots blow both of them away against SV4 or better and aren't actually too shabby vs light vehicles. (9 sniper drone shots = 3 drones within 24" plus ethereal, so pretty easy and cheap to get).

EDIT: 9 Sniper drones outperforms Railsides vs all targets up to and including AV12. Lol. Poor railguns :( I will miss thee.

Trasvi wrote:
You're coming out a little lower on Hull Points than I do with calculations. I can see the reason:

The way I mathhammer hullpoints is to count each glance as 1 HP, but each penetrate as (5/6*1+1/6*3) to represent the chance of exploding. So AP3+ weapons do 1.33 HP per penetrate, AP2 do 1.666, and AP1 do 2 HP per penetrate. In this case I'd get RR at 1.125 HP against AV10 and HYMP at 2.5.
Do you think that's a legitimate way to calculate HP damage?

Actually I didn’t take explode results into overall hullpoint damage on purpose. I think it’s a matter of preference, I like to separate hullpoints from chance to outright destroy as I have in my table. It makes sense to me as an explode result doesn’t care how many hullpoints a vehicle has. I'm not sure converting explode results into hullpoint damage is right, it kind of feels like it might not work right. But I'm not a math genius so I can't wrap my head around it without some extra testing, and I'm at work at the moment and can't spare the time. Someone else more gifted than me can comment, perhaps

Personally, I stick to RR and plasma on my broadsides, simply because they pull double duty as AA and anti-TEQ and MC. I like killing my targets, rather than forcing saves.

Torrent is usually a good bet. I'd go with the missile pods for greater versatility and leave the high AVs to fusion blasters.

Bottom line, unless you're playing Hammer and Anvil the HYMP is at least as good or better than the HRR against all targets except AV14 (which the HRR is terrible against).

I think the RR has a place if only because Tau can get S7 AP4 everywhere. Missile Pods, Kroot Guns, and Ion Rifles come to mind. Additionally, there are two sources of cheap snipers one in Troops, and the other Troops choice has S5 guns. Basically, you can't spit on a Tau army without hitting two units that can do what HYMPs do. Heavy Rail Rifles can instakill T4 stuff, punch armor, and be serviceable against vehicles. The also look cool.