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According to the Grey Knight 5th Edition Codex pg. 26,

Heroic Sacrifice:
This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either players' Assault Phase.

If the Psychic test is successful, the Brotherhood Champion immediately makes a single attack against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died. If this attack hits, both models are removed as casualties with no saves of any kind allowed. If this attack misses, only the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty.

With the way its worded, its not a Psychic attack that's being directed to any target, it only allows the Champion to perform a single attack in close combat. So there can be no Deny The Witch save against this attack.

Now with the new Feel No Pain ruling with Perils of the Warp, if I was to receive this attack, could I make a Feel No Pain save against it?

Well i would say as you don´t get wounded by the attack you can´t use FnP against it. The model is removed not wounded so no saves or FnP. Perils puts a wound on the model so you can use FnP.

And also no Deny the Witch because the target seems to be himself not the enemy.

I would say that a deny the witch roll could be taken, as the power does still have a 'target' (one of the models in base contact is the 'target').

I would also say that a feel no pain roll could be taken as well, as it is not classed as being a save.

For example, Riptides who fail their nova reactor roll take a wound with no saves, but they can use FNP if they have it from the Stimulant Injector.

rohansoldier wrote:
I would say that a deny the witch roll could be taken, as the power does still have a 'target' (one of the models in base contact is the 'target').

I would also say that a feel no pain roll could be taken as well, as it is not classed as being a save.

For example, Riptides who fail their nova reactor roll take a wound with no saves, but they can use FNP if they have it from the Stimulant Injector.

Yeah but you can only use FnP against wounds taken. if you get removed you have no saves and as you take no wounds you have no "target" for FnP. Nova Reactors and Perils put wounds on models, therefore you can use FnP. not sure about deny the witch but as the psychic ability doesn´t do any harmful but gives an extra attack to the champ i think there is no chance to get a DtW. just like buffing units, enemies shot by this later don´t get DtW rolls either

Okay, I can agree with the Feel No Pain ruling. But with deny the witch, I still dont agree.

Heroic Sacrific targets the Brotherhood Champion(or Crowe) and enables him to make a special attack with special properties.

Does it expend a warp charge?

Just like Activating Force weapons, or casting Hammerhand, Quick Silver, or Any other psychic abilities, then yes.

rnlmeat0666 wrote:

Heroic Sacrific targets the Brotherhood Champion(or Crowe) and enables him to make a special attack with special properties.

I agree with this. By looks of it your not targetting a enemy unit, the target of the phycic attack is your own model which then enables him to make the special attack.

No DtW roll as the power targets the caster. If you could deny this, you'd also be able to deny Force weapons, which you can't.

No FNP either as it's not an unsaved wound.

I think you do get DtW. No FNP though.

The reason a force weapon doesn't get DtW is that by passing the test you are adding a special rule to the weapon. The weapon is the target and beneficiary of the psychic power. What the bearer does with the weapon isn't material.

With the Heroic Sacrifice rule, you roll a psychic test whose purpose is purely to grant an attack against another model. This is no different than performing a psychic shooting attack. Roll the test, do the attack. Therefore the target model should get a DtW roll.

Please show where it targets the opponent. Page and graph

"... against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died."

If the target of an effect of a psychic power is not also considered a target of the psychic power itself, then NO psychic powers have targets.

Pyrian wrote:
"... against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died."

way to grab only the pertinent to your view parts!" if the psychic test is succesful, the brotherhood champion immediately makes a single attack....." The attack comes after the psychic test is successful, which means by the time the enemy model is targeted the time for a deny the witch has already passed. you can't go back and roll armor saves before you are hit, so why would you be able to deny the witch?


Edit: reread your post and saw that I made the same booboo. I get what you are trying to say, that the target of the attack is also the target of the power, but then hammerhands and any other self buffed abilities would get the same DtW potential, and they don't. A bit like saying if you use prescience on your unit, I get to deny the witch for it when you target one of my units, and that is just not the way it works.

Pyrian wrote:
"... against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died."

If the target of an effect of a psychic power is not also considered a target of the psychic power itself, then NO psychic powers have targets.

The BC gets to make a single attack. The target of the power is the BC, as it grants them an extra attack.

Again: find where it targets the enemy. Finding the word "Target" would be helpful

nos: pg 24, GK codex. Specifically:
"If the psychic test is successful, the Brotherhood Champion immediately makes a single attack against one enemy model that was in base contact..."

key points: if test is successful, attack enemy model. This is essentially manifesting the attack as it is a power that is used which grants an attack.

for comparison, look at how to resolve things like Witchfire:
If a psychic test is successful, attack the enemy model/unit. Notice the difference? namely that there isn't one and it's the exact same mechanic.

Now Blessings are different, they boost characteristics or add special abilities. Same with activating force weapons. You pass the psychic test and an ability or special rule is applied. Hammerhand is essentially a blessing as well as it boosts a characteristic.

"attack" is not a special ability or characteristic. It is a core function.

How refreshing, this thread again. RAW no DTW for Heroic Sacrifice or Cleansing Flame. RAI... well, vague. But I'm sure this thread will still argue like always and stretch into pg15

@goat. could you provide the link, I would like to read that as to get the full argument from both sides and I don't see it in search. - thanks.

nvm: found it and reading through: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/492883.page

There is no FNP as it's not an issue of wounds.

The target is the model that uses the power, DTW is only used when your unit is targeted. You can use the Space Wolves runic weapon to dispel the effect though.

clively wrote:
nos: pg 24, GK codex. Specifically:
"If the psychic test is successful, the Brotherhood Champion immediately makes a single attack against one enemy model that was in base contact..."

key points: if test is successful, attack enemy model. This is essentially manifesting the attack as it is a power that is used which grants an attack.

for comparison, look at how to resolve things like Witchfire:
If a psychic test is successful, attack the enemy model/unit. Notice the difference? namely that there isn't one and it's the exact same mechanic.

Now Blessings are different, they boost characteristics or add special abilities. Same with activating force weapons. You pass the psychic test and an ability or special rule is applied. Hammerhand is essentially a blessing as well as it boosts a characteristic.

"attack" is not a special ability or characteristic. It is a core function.

Good point, but RAW they are different. Deny the witch requires you to target an enemy unit. as was pointed out above, the result of the power is not to remove a model, but to grant the BC an extra attack that has the potential to remove the model. You don't get to deny the witch on the space marine power that grants d3 extra attacks, so why this one?

@vongoob: the target is defined as one in base contact.

With witchfire, the result isn't to remove a model either, but to grant use of a specific weapon profile. It still requires a To Hit/Wound roll.

I'm not exactly sure which marine power you are referencing for the D3 extra attacks. Could you let me know, I'd like to compare that as well to see if it really is different.

Nope the target is the same as a psychic weapon. You make a test and it alters your attack profile. No DTW for this.

clively wrote:
The reason a force weapon doesn't get DtW is that by passing the test you are adding a special rule to the weapon. The weapon is the target and beneficiary of the psychic power. What the bearer does with the weapon isn't material.

Also the Force Weapon rule itself says you can't Deny it.

@ Clively

I believe it is called sword of heroes, or might of heroes. Could also be a Blood Angels codex power, not 100 percent as both of my copies of those codices are in a storage unit.

EDIT: did some google magic, Might of Heroes BA Codex.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Nope the target is the same as a psychic weapon. You make a test and it alters your attack profile. No DTW for this.

How is that any different than witchfire? You pass a psychic test that alters your wargear by granting access to a new weapon? By passing the psychic test for witchfire you can now shoot with a previously unavailable weapon. By passing the psychic test for Heroic Sacrifice you can now make a CC attack...

The mechanics are identical. Pass psychic test, roll to hit, roll to wound.

Because witchfire directly targets the unit, you name a target and the shooting attack is dealt with as per PSA rules.

This is different, roll a test and if successful make a cc attack with the following profile against a target.

PSA is choose target, roll test, resolve PSA.
This is make test, choose target and resolve attack.

clively wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Nope the target is the same as a psychic weapon. You make a test and it alters your attack profile. No DTW for this.

How is that any different than witchfire? You pass a psychic test that alters your wargear by granting access to a new weapon? By passing the psychic test for witchfire you can now shoot with a previously unavailable weapon. By passing the psychic test for Heroic Sacrifice you can now make a CC attack...

The mechanics are identical. Pass psychic test, roll to hit, roll to wound.

Witchfire is a shooting attack, Witchfires have a weapon profile,( ie Strength, AP, Assault/Heavy/Rapid)

No wounds.

@vongoob.

Okay, just read the part on Might of Heroes. The text is "...if successful, the Librarian (or any one other model in the same unit as the Librarian) gains +D3 atacks..."

I think the important difference here is that it's either the Librarian or another model in the unit that gets the attacks. Also, there is no defined enemy (aka target) in that rule. Finally it uses the word "gains", meaning it's a characteristic buff. This sounds more like a blessing allowing you a future option to attack rather than telling you to resolve an attack now.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@liturgies of blood: The target was defined in the rule. It's a model that is in base contact with the champion. So we know the target prior to the attack.

----

After having read how the December thread on this subject went, and the fact I really just can't spend the time I'd like to on this today. I'll just stop.

I think I've made a good case for how Heroic Sacrifice meets the requirements for granting a DtW roll; and I recognize that several others disagree. I also see how easy it would be for this thread to fall into a similar rut that the previous one did as I've already had to repeat my statements several times and we're only on page 1.

Thanks,

No Deny the Witch or Feel no Pain.

No DtW because Heroic Sacrifice doesn't target anything, it makes the champion make a single normal melee attack. Weapon skill vs Weapon skill that has a special effect if it hits.

No Feel no Pain because no wound is caused,a nd FnP can only be taken against an unsaved wound.

clively wrote:

@liturgies of blood: The target was defined in the rule. It's a model that is in base contact with the champion. So we know the target prior to the attack.

So you didn't read my post? PSA is very different to heroic intervention in it's mechanics. WHILE a player may say he's doing heroic intervention on the big bad combat monster the mechanics run as I said. It changes the model's attack profile to "removes from play if hits" for one hit only. So the effect of the rule is to change the profile of the attacker ie target the attacker, the OUTCOME is that it may remove a model.

indeed, you don't declare a target of Heroic Sacrifice. You take the psychic test, then if it passes you roll a melee attack against a model of your choice in BtB.

As no target is declared no DtW can be made.