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Nice to see the PB love going strong in this thread. Attack of the fanboies starts in....

I went in for a showdown and extra Miriya, YF-4 squad, armoured valks, and two trainer valks. Tho now I wish I had bought one instaed so I can have an extra two YF-4s.

Before the ks ended I was going to give more cash when I realized I won't be playing epic battles. I prefer a skirmish style game for now. After 15yrs of 40k I'm not trying to start another game that's basically a parking lot for minis. I've just enough to have both sides on equal footing at a small scale. I tried the demo rules PB put out and the game slows to a crawl when you get into HtH. If the rules stay as is I don't see playing beyond the 600 point mark. It's like playing 2nd ed 40k at apocalypse scale. No thanks.

Kendachi wrote:
Also, 4 rulebooks helps, unless they're as error ridden as I expect.

Way to make PB sound like GW there lol.

Yeah! GW puts out products all the time!

 Azazelx wrote:
Yeah! GW puts out products all the time!

Ha you made me evil lol!

Well played, Az. Well played indeed.

Well guys, you know how much effort I've put into this so far so if there is anything I can do it will be making things are error free as possible and doing all I can to avoid new versions as the Southern Cross and New Gen stuff is released years down the line. I've already spoke about my concern for that happening and how to avoid that.

Which is certainly admirable as all get out.

But intending no offense, if one guy manages to build a better and more balanced game than the combined might of however many dozens of people worked on RRT and however many dozens (hundreds?) of beta testers who tried things out and gave feedback, we're in a lot of trouble.

Also, it's worth noting that your numbers came from the RPG, same as theirs. If it turns out that somehow the flaw is at least partially found there, whatever issues they have might well show up in your work as well, and we're left with a system that needs further updating/fixing and oh god it's Rifts all over again. :-P

 Forar wrote:
Which is certainly admirable as all get out.

But intending no offense, if one guy manages to build a better and more balanced game than the combined might of however many dozens of people worked on RRT and however many dozens (hundreds?) of beta testers who tried things out and gave feedback, we're in a lot of trouble.

Also, it's worth noting that your numbers came from the RPG, same as theirs. If it turns out that somehow the flaw is at least partially found there, whatever issues they have might well show up in your work as well, and we're left with a system that needs further updating/fixing and oh god it's Rifts all over again. :-P

There is a difference between getting good advice from playtesters and using it... a point that I'm unfortunately seeing reinforced this week in my dealings with Heavy Gear. Palladium knows that lots of people think their rpg rules need a drastic update but they simply don't care. I'm not involved in any robotech playtesting but I don't see how that attitude wouldn't spill over to their new genre just like their habits of tardiness and press releases not grounded in reality.

I'll happily use your rules over PB if they're more quality. If I ever get the minis that is. I just would like to see more honesty from the community as opposed to the boiler plate "hey it's all good. Don't tell us anything & keep dragging your feet *fanboy drool*"

All I can say is that there is a reason for some of the silence as some decisions are being made and some details considered. More information will be forthcoming in the next week or two.

Mike1975 wrote:
All I can say is that there is a reason for some of the silence as some decisions are being made and some details considered. More information will be forthcoming in the next week or two.

Someone sounds like he joined the playtesting....

It also sounds like the other shoe is about to drop as well. Maybe it's just the pessimist in me but the Feb date just didn't seem realistic the DAY they announced it similar to the October revised delivery date. From the tone of your post, I'd expect something additional as well like the announcement of split wave shipping on top of yet another expected delay (wave 1 will come in May, the rest TBD).

Constantly amazed at the amount of cash the wargame community can generate and spend on projects. We are a c

We're a c-what now?

cash cow? credulous? covetous?

Hey cool, we can add "in the next week or two" for big news, along with "by the end of the year".

2 waves seems possible but unlikely, as it'd eat a giant pile of money to send out that many packages twice.

I'm thinking a Relic Knights style delay.

'We have received the test models and they look super awesome! Everyone around the office loves them! Someone had to be given CPR, they got so excited!

So the only sort of awesome news is that we have our production slot, and between that being in March and shipping, we're expecting to have your packages out by Gencon, where we'll be debuting RRT to thousands of fans who are all super duper with a cherry on top excited!'

And then it'll go on for like another 2 pages about all the attention they've been getting and just sort of ignore the fact they just dropped another 6 months onto the timetable.

Maybe another stat card or something to tide us over.

A couple of things to remember, based on pledge numbers, ND was expecting to some where around 1500 to 2000. and a few extras, that where simple model modifications, and time to prep a second and third wave of models. Instead they now have more than double that in starter sets, and models that they probably thought they would have a year or so get cleaned up and shipped that they now have to get ready ahead of time.

We know that they have all the models approved for the starter sets. They have showed them at the shows. the issue is with all the extra models that they where not prepared for. Plus then there is all the extra stuff that is required to get new models into production, especially when a production company was not planning on make some of them right of the bat, I am sure the discussed all the models that they planned on creating, but i doubt they discussed being able to have all of this ready in a few months, plus there is always going to be some production delays. I mean really how can you not expect this, If you look at any other game, They do not come out with 90% of the game line with the first wave. You hold off on some of it to keep sales going over the year, and we are getting all of this right off the bat. Am i sad that i did not get my cool Christmas present? Sure, Do i understand they had issues. YES!. They have given a lot of good updates. (some not so good) At least they are giving us updates.

They had 1.4m in backing across 5,400 backers and still felt confident that they could ship 2 months early.

Whomever is setting their targets might as well just be throwing darts at a board.

Also we have no idea what they did and didn't have lined up in that original December target. They claimed to have the digital sculpts mostly done during the campaign. They claimed to have the book done, and the final final final final final rules were't ready for print for half a year.

Bluntly, I'm not feeling terribly charitable when it's not so much "ooops, we hit some giant unforeseen snags" and more "we sort of mis-represented how far along we actually were, and may have kind of expanded the scope of the project without somehow realizing that might take more time to ship, not less."

Well, I'm sure Ninja Division is no longer focusing on this or Relic knights as they're involved in the Mega Man Kickstarter.

I'm just trying to figure out what they'll move on to next that will inevitably delay Mega Man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cawizkid wrote:
A couple of things to remember, based on pledge numbers, ND was expecting to some where around 1500 to 2000. and a few extras, that where simple model modifications, and time to prep a second and third wave of models. Instead they now have more than double that in starter sets, and models that they probably thought they would have a year or so get cleaned up and shipped that they now have to get ready ahead of time.

We know that they have all the models approved for the starter sets. They have showed them at the shows. the issue is with all the extra models that they where not prepared for. Plus then there is all the extra stuff that is required to get new models into production, especially when a production company was not planning on make some of them right of the bat, I am sure the discussed all the models that they planned on creating, but i doubt they discussed being able to have all of this ready in a few months, plus there is always going to be some production delays. I mean really how can you not expect this, If you look at any other game, They do not come out with 90% of the game line with the first wave. You hold off on some of it to keep sales going over the year, and we are getting all of this right off the bat. Am i sad that i did not get my cool Christmas present? Sure, Do i understand they had issues. YES!. They have given a lot of good updates. (some not so good) At least they are giving us updates.

Your justifications here only enable them. If you're not prepared for the volume to be able to ship on time, you have two options:

1. Turn the faucet off and take the money you have and develop and print what you had planned.
2. Be honest about your backers and tell them that "X stretch goal will add X amount of time to our production timeline"

They've done neither.

 Forar wrote:
Hey cool, we can add "in the next week or two" for big news, along with "by the end of the year".

2 waves seems possible but unlikely, as it'd eat a giant pile of money to send out that many packages twice.

I'm thinking a Relic Knights style delay.

'We have received the test models and they look super awesome! Everyone around the office loves them! Someone had to be given CPR, they got so excited!

So the only sort of awesome news is that we have our production slot, and between that being in March and shipping, we're expecting to have your packages out by Gencon, where we'll be debuting RRT to thousands of fans who are all super duper with a cherry on top excited!'

And then it'll go on for like another 2 pages about all the attention they've been getting and just sort of ignore the fact they just dropped another 6 months onto the timetable.

Maybe another stat card or something to tide us over.

While I agree with the realism of the rest of the post, the earlier bolded part (my emphasis) is a bit optimistic. Potential future Palladium Update:



If they do split shipping, I'd be very surprised if the cost is not simply passed onto the end chump.. I mean consumer.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

Your justifications here only enable them. If you're not prepared for the volume to be able to ship on time, you have two options:

1. Turn the faucet off and take the money you have and develop and print what you had planned.
2. Be honest about your backers and tell them that "X stretch goal will add X amount of time to our production timeline"

They've done neither.

Of course not... they've still got option 3. Exaggerate your current state of progress to get the megafunding and then trickle out successive delays to cover your own naivety/incompetence like spraying doggy poop carpet stains with perfume when guests come over. Then you just have your die hard apologists hold the line initially with comments about how the company has been in business and they know what they're doing (in response to initial worries about the project) and then later with "all kickstarters are late and I'm fine with the delay.. I can't believe you had the gall to expect it roughly around the release date!" (when it's obvious that the initial worries were indeed 100% correct but to point out that Palladium's problems are not because of Palladium.. again.. for decades). This is typically done by the same posters as it is more poignant if they do a complete 180 in their viewpoint as to defend the Maiden Siembada's honor.

 Alpharius wrote:
We're a c-what now?

Bunch of c- ?

C notes.

Mikes post concerns me, so after everything has been finalised they've realised they need to make changes?

In accordance with player preferences, the game will now be 1 side fully activates and then the other one does.

Instead of d6's, which people have hundreds of, we'll be moving to a proprietorially weighted D13 system. No, we won't tell you how they're specially weighted, but it involves pure fan enthusiasm distilled down to a fine slurry.

The UEDF/RDF will be renamed "Outer Space Maritime Soldiers". The Zentraedi will be renamed "Not-Gieger's-Aliens". We feel this will also appeal to players.

The models will have to be tweaked slightly. We estimate that these minor adjustments will take about a week, with another week to retool the molds, and another week to look at the new test run. (Spoiler alert: this work ends up taking 4 months, though the press releases that announce it will never change from the usual 3 week timeline)

Command Points will be renamed to "Spiritstones", because 'paying homage' to just one game wouldn't be fair.

The space rules will just be a rehash of X-Wing. Look, don't make this weird. The d13's will work just fine here too. Totally.

Something about Warmahordes, I've never played it.

 cincydooley wrote:
Well, I'm sure Ninja Division is no longer focusing on this or Relic knights as they're involved in the Mega Man Kickstarter.

I'm just trying to figure out what they'll move on to next that will inevitably delay Mega Man.

Do the delays on either project actually have anything to do with Ninja Division? I'm not into Relic Knights so I don't know, but it sure seems like they have nothing to do with RRT anymore.

If their sole involvement in the projects is as contracted miniatures designers, and they're done designing them, why should they be prevented from moving on to more work because the actual project operators are experiencing or causing their own delays?

NTRabbit wrote:
Do the delays on either project actually have anything to do with Ninja Division? I'm not into Relic Knights so I don't know, but it sure seems like they have nothing to do with RRT anymore.

If their sole involvement in the projects is as contracted miniatures designers, and they're done designing them, why should they be prevented from moving on to more work because the actual project operators are experiencing or causing their own delays?

I suspect as always that it depends on the implementation. We went from literally dozens of communiques from the Ninjas EVERY DAY during to kickstarter to almost none (maybe one or two before palladium claimed they'd pick up the slack?) in the 7 months since. Their facebook page only parrots info that palladium posts weeks to days earlier which is most of the time copy/pasted from previous weeks itself. If they had instead switched to weekly communication then maybe monthly till the project was quite literally being produced (you know... like how they SAID they would in the Kickstarter front page with that "regular" communication and all) and THEN officially moved on, I don't think anyone would have an issue. Instead, we get the ridiculous comments from Kevin S. that the kickstarter delivery is being moved up several months within several days of the funding closing.

To be pedantic, it was literally the day after.

As I recall, the campaign ended May 20th, and his comment about a possible early delivery was made on the 21st.

 warboss wrote:

NTRabbit wrote:
Do the delays on either project actually have anything to do with Ninja Division? I'm not into Relic Knights so I don't know, but it sure seems like they have nothing to do with RRT anymore.

If their sole involvement in the projects is as contracted miniatures designers, and they're done designing them, why should they be prevented from moving on to more work because the actual project operators are experiencing or causing their own delays?

I suspect as always that it depends on the implementation. We went from literally dozens of communiques from the Ninjas EVERY DAY during to kickstarter to almost none (maybe one or two before palladium claimed they'd pick up the slack?) in the 7 months since. Their facebook page only parrots info that palladium posts weeks to days earlier which is most of the time copy/pasted from previous weeks itself. If they had instead switched to weekly communication then maybe monthly till the project was quite literally being produced (you know... like how they SAID they would in the Kickstarter front page with that "regular" communication and all) and THEN officially moved on, I don't think anyone would have an issue. Instead, we get the ridiculous comments from Kevin S. that the kickstarter delivery is being moved up several months within several days of the funding closing.

Hasn't all of the (lack of) communication since the end of the project been from Palladium? How do we know Palladium didn't just say "Thanks, but we'll take it from here" before washing ND out of any further involvement. I recall reading early in the KS that ND were making this game themselves on behalf of Palladium, including writing the rules, which they sure aren't doing now.

Unless I'm mistaken the whole thing reads like ND getting a contract/license to do the whole game for Palladium to sell as their own because people wanted one and they didn't know how, ND ran the kickstarter successfully, and then as soon as it ended Palladium took over everything bar the sculpting and then said 'see ya later' once that was done, but continue to blame every issue that comes up on the partner they cut out months ago.

NTRabbit wrote:

 warboss wrote:

NTRabbit wrote:
Hasn't all of the (lack of) communication since the end of the project been from Palladium? How do we know Palladium didn't just say "Thanks, but we'll take it from here" before washing ND out of any further involvement. I recall reading early in the KS that ND were making this game themselves on behalf of Palladium, including writing the rules, which they sure aren't doing now.

Unless I'm mistaken the whole thing reads like ND getting a contract/license to do the whole game for Palladium to sell as their own because people wanted one and they didn't know how, ND ran the kickstarter successfully, and then as soon as it ended Palladium took over everything bar the sculpting and then said 'see ya later' once that was done, but continue to blame every issue that comes up on the partner they cut out months ago.

That's just it we don't know who is in charge of rules dev anymore. But according to Mike it seems to be coming along quite well. Although I'm surprised they still need play testers at this point since according to PB/nd the rules have been play tested for some time before the ks even started.

Yes PB is still blaming nd and Chinese New Year (how dare they take time off). Since this started and iv learned about the real PB, I've learned that this kind of thing is the norm for them. I recall someone mentioning that when he/she went to gencon they noticed there was tension between PB and nd staff. Off coarse this was put down as trash talk by the defenders but there might be some truth to it. My guess is Kevin saw the game might outshine his outdated rules and leave his books in the dust. So because he feels threatened by this he has probably taken over the task of writing the rules himself. This way he can bask in glory and continue to be king of the nerds.

So is the current theory that ND wrote a miniatures game, Kevin completely rewrote and and now been forced to realise he's made it unplayable?

Business as usual

 Cypher-xv wrote:

NTRabbit wrote:

 warboss wrote:

NTRabbit wrote:
Hasn't all of the (lack of) communication since the end of the project been from Palladium? How do we know Palladium didn't just say "Thanks, but we'll take it from here" before washing ND out of any further involvement. I recall reading early in the KS that ND were making this game themselves on behalf of Palladium, including writing the rules, which they sure aren't doing now.

Unless I'm mistaken the whole thing reads like ND getting a contract/license to do the whole game for Palladium to sell as their own because people wanted one and they didn't know how, ND ran the kickstarter successfully, and then as soon as it ended Palladium took over everything bar the sculpting and then said 'see ya later' once that was done, but continue to blame every issue that comes up on the partner they cut out months ago.

That's just it we don't know who is in charge of rules dev anymore. But according to Mike it seems to be coming along quite well. Although I'm surprised they still need play testers at this point since according to PB/nd the rules have been play tested for some time before the ks even started.

Yes PB is still blaming nd and Chinese New Year (how dare they take time off). Since this started and iv learned about the real PB, I've learned that this kind of thing is the norm for them. I recall someone mentioning that when he/she went to gencon they noticed there was tension between PB and nd staff. Off coarse this was put down as trash talk by the defenders but there might be some truth to it. My guess is Kevin saw the game might outshine his outdated rules and leave his books in the dust. So because he feels threatened by this he has probably taken over the task of writing the rules himself. This way he can bask in glory and continue to be king of the nerds.

Just to clarify for everyone I think it was back in September that I sent PB an email via the KS site. I offered to help keep people motivated and do what I can in exchange for the actual rules and being able to post pics of games that I'd play with brief descriptions. I attached links to the games that I had played so far as well as the rules that I had written up to date to the email. Later I added the Facebook page.

After ~6 weeks (Mid-November) I got an email from Jeff Burke telling me that they were interested in looking things and that they would get back to me. At this time there were rumors about the rules not being completely done so I just put myself on sit and wait mode as far as PB was concerned. I received another email a month later saying to expect a call from Kevin S. I spoke to him before Christmas and I will hopefully be receiving the NDA soon so that I can get a copy of the actual rules.

This is a two edged sword. I will have the actual rules, can mess with them and see what I think and make my opinions known to Jeff and the PB gang BUT I will no longer be able to openly share with you all that I know from the rules. So I'm hoping to get a good look and then work with PB and Jeff to "share' a few tidbits on the actual rules here and there. This sharing will be completely dependent on their OK so take that as you will.