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The way Wayne is wording his post on Jaymz FB page things will stay as is.

 Cyporiean wrote:
So...

These are going to be HIPS, right? We'll get a sprue of crap and not a baggie of PVC parts... right?

That is my understanding. They've mentioned sprues in the past, said it would be made of ABS plastic, etc.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
The way Wayne is wording his post on Jaymz FB page things will stay as is.

That's my impression as well, and even if the Gencon timeline remains impossible, they're clearly pushing ahead to get it out sooner rather than later.

So if that's the case, I guess the next hope is that the Spartan truly is the worst of the lot and that the rest of the figures are vastly more sensible in the parts count and fiddlyness to put together.

So, what is the difference between these and the ole nichimo kits? They look exactly the same.

Well, a cursory google'ing indicates that those kits were 1/200 scale? So... these are around 2/3rds their size? >.>

Joyboozer wrote:
So, what is the difference between these and the ole nichimo kits? They look exactly the same.

That's the problem. Years of having modeling options from GW has made the nichimo models look cheap in comparison. You can't even do a proper pose unless you want to hack and slash the nichimo model. Also manufacturing has improved since those kits came out. Now a days those sorry models wouldn't cut the mustard.

The old plastic kits had variable wings while these don't. I don't recall who it was in this thread but I hope who ever it was kept some of those gashapon pencil sharpeners as they might be better quality than the slew of unnecessary parts we'll get with this project.

I don't get why it's taking so long to post an update from PB. I understand if PB is making call to ND. I just hope it's not Wayne filing and filling the models to sell us on it. I feel like I just bought a time share

 Cypher-xv wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
So, what is the difference between these and the ole nichimo kits? They look exactly the same.

That's the problem. Years of having modeling options from GW has made the nichimo models look cheap in comparison. You can't even do a proper pose unless you want to hack and slash the nichimo model. Also manufacturing has improved since those kits came out. Now a days those sorry models wouldn't cut the mustard.

That depends, the old Nichimo models were made to be inexpensive and were sold from vending machines. There were plenty of other models out at that time that offered much more poseability, but they were aimed at making kits available for $1.50 where other kits like the Robotech Defenders line from Revell were in the $20-$30 range.

When they were re-released as $5 for two kits it was awesome and at those prices I'd buy them all day long, so what if I needed to do some cutting? they were dirt cheap and offered a pretty good quality for the price. I'd still take the "lesser quality" of the Nichimo kits if it meant I could have a huge army of 40+ models for under a $100, especially considering they are a lot bigger then the tactics minis are going to be.

If the Tactics models had a parts break down similar to the Nichimo kits to keep things simplified they probably could have cut the prices of the old Nichimo kits by half, could you imagine the type of armies you could put together if the kits were in the same plastic and prices averaged $1-$1.50?

Well I just read the new update. I don't know anything about mold-making, but I do know plenty about assembly, and based on the three models they've shown so far, this all looks pretty ridiculous. I was so pumped when I saw this KS, and now I'm just getting angrier and angrier by the day. Their " well, we see your concerns, and here's why you're all wrong" tone doesn't help. Don't mean to sound like a troll, I'm just frustrated at possibly flushing a bunch of money down the drain.

I just read through that, it hilarious!
You can't expect quality they're new at this! It has to be a lot of parts for quality!

Even worse than the BS explanation of why my modelling experience makes me an idiot, is all the people chiming in talking about how great these models are going to be, and more parts make them better, or those seams and mold lines won't be noticeable in the least. WTF? Where are these people from? And I get Wayne defending his model design, he's butthurt while incapable of seeing the terrible design.

I did like how he said that he was sorry he showed the Defender first. Me too ! But none of your other UEDF designs are up to snuff either...

Wayne's update makes no sense at all to me.

It makes perfect sense to me. Unless they're using slide-core tooling, HIPS molds are pressed together from two pieces of steel. You can't have overhanging detail on a part. I can't even begin to imagine how gakky the models would look if they were only three or four pieces.

It was just to justify cheap manufacturing methods. I hate the way the models are coming along. At this rate I will never ever promote anything by ND. I will tell the truth that they along with PB screwed up something that should have been amazing.

Mouth watering models indeed.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
It was just to justify cheap manufacturing methods. I hate the way the models are coming along. At this rate I will never ever promote anything by ND. I will tell the truth that they along with PB screwed up something that should have been amazing.

Mouth watering models indeed.

If they wanted cheap manufacturing methods they would have gone PVC/restic route. HIPS is expensive as hell due to having to mill steel molds.

If anything, this is one of the first times in the campaign I've been very excited about my pledge. The only way to get this fine of detail on 1/300 models is by using polystyrene. Resin would be way too fragile and metal far too expensive and PVC/restic far too soft (and full of terrible mold lines, ala Mantic)

That's great an all but were all going to have boring minis. Yes I can convert but it's going to be a PITA. I haven't been this disappointed in a mecha models since the tau crises suit first came out. I thought GW was giving me a gundam model instead I got a boxy mech with chicken feet. I had to go and do some converting to get them to look like the artwork in the codex.

That dude on the right, his left arm w/ the shield, is what happens when you try to have too much going on in a single piece on a steel mold.



Because there can be no undercuts, the arm and the shield meet as a solid fugly mass. The smart thing would have been to have two separate pieces, an arm with detail on both sides and a shield with detail on both sides, that the person then glues together. As it stands that model is five parts but probably should have been at least seven (arm/shield split and torso split)

Was that dude's head split into 2 as well for the sake of 'detail' -_-

I thought some of you might find this interesting. It's a comment on the why nd was made from someone who is in the know.

My two cents about Ninja Division / Soda Pop Miniatures and what is going on:
I will start off by saying yes, I am friends with John Candice and Deke Stella of Soda Pop Miniatures and am I play tester for their games. I am writing this to clear up some of the confusion with them. Ninja Division is a new company that combines Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios. Ninja Division was created at the same time as this kickstarter and yes, they were in charge of producing sculpts, rules and tokens. One reason why Ninja Division was created is because Sodapop Miniature was part of a LLC with Cool Mini or Not, because of the bad rep. with Cool Mini they have broken away and created Ninja Division. Trust me, it has been a break up from hell for them.Why? Because, being part of a LLC Cool Mini has certain rights over their merchandise (as manufactures and rights to the molds) so, Ninja Division was created so they could create and manufacture without Cool Mini and become their own independent designers / manufactures. Now for the main question:
Why are they now running another kickstarter (Forgotten King) when this one isn't finished?
This same question was asked when this kickstarter was created because, Relic Knights (Soda Pop Miniatures and Cool Mini or Not) was already a year late at this point. Don't feel bad about Soda Pop / Ninja Division starting their Forgotten King kickstarter though, imagine how the Relic Knights people must feel. For those unfamiliar with that project it is just 3 months from being 2 years old and over a year and half of being late on shipping. Best part, it is still going on. There is still no estimated shipping date for it, they are just saying that they hope to have it out by July 2014 right in time for its release at Gencon.
For more of those who are talking about Forgotten King. Being a play tester for it I can vouch that the rules are complete and good along with the sculpts. Again, because this will be Soda Pop aka Ninja Divisions first solo project without the aid of Cool Mini, Harmony Gold or Palladium this is why they need the kickstarter to get all the expenses of mass production out of the way. Forgotten King is pretty much a kickstart to start a new company that is getting over a really bad legal heavy divorce.
I am in no way trying to condone their actions or their choices on sculpts here. Just wanted to break up the confusion with SPM / Ninja Division and their products and their projects.

So...they need the Forgotten King KS to pay for Relic Knights and Robotech's overruns?

Why do I have this horrible feeling that we won't see any models for another two years. I hope this doesn't become RK part two.

So...why should we care about what SPM is going through?

The way nd is handling this it feels like a Ponzi scheme. Use the money from their new project to finish the other two that are not done. Then kick start a new project to pay for forgotten kings.

So SPM is like that guy on the street that tells you how his wife screwed him over, then the company he worked for screwed him over. Now even the government is screwing him over and now he just needs five dollars.
Will SPM wash my windshield?

I would imagine that ND was formed as a separate company to legally separate and protect their various lines from each other. That way if one were to fail it wouldn't pull down all the other projects they are juggling. It's a good business move particularly if they are taking on an outside partner that is an unknown element.

Basically what it allows them to do is insulate their soda pop lines from any pitfalls should the stuff with Palladium go bust for some reason. Same would hold true if they ended up in a potential law suit situation. If everything was under one corporate structure and one of those situations came up they could lose lines that were otherwise healthy and doing well. If all the properties were under one roof then all assets are treated as being from the same pool so it makes a lot of sense to legally separate them into different entities.

Yeah, whether it is SPM or ND, they are pretty much one and the same. SPM has the SDE and RK licenses, ND has Robotech. They are both pretty much butchering RK and Robotech.

That ND believes that they are delivering a kick- product is simply a travesty. They've made one of the simplest models into like 20+ pieces, and don't understand why people are upset? You point out that your marvelous feat of technological mastery is a ridge on the front and back of each side of the leg. FFS, I can live without that little ridge , make the model either easier to assemble or look MUCH better. The GW Dreadnoughts have FAR FAR more detail and ornamentation, and the legs are 2 pieces, front and back. And they don't have joins that I feel I need to either file down or fill in on 50+ models...

JudgeDoug, I get that the steel molds are expensive. But, and I'm not a technological master as ND is, but it seems they could have rotated the leg 90 degrees, and had no undercuts for a single piece leg. Their contention was the two little ridges on the front and back, as to why they had to do it sideways. They could have had the foot separate, like GWs Dread, and had the leg be an entire single piece. But instead, we get 2 very thin pieces, with really no significant detail, and this is their reasoning why it had to be this way. Obviously there are factories out there that could do the slide core technology and molds, as other KS companies are turning out beautiful beautiful miniatures in plastic. These are just far to intricate for a table top game, especially one that is ENTIRELY designed to be above the skirmish level, as their own skirmish rules are ridiculously simplistic and are an afterthought.

My first take is that SPM/ND has the miniature experience and certainly wouldn't have delivered breakdowns like those. It must be PB or the dastardly Chinese making those decisions, not Sopapop. After all look at those lovely productions shots of RK.

Then I look at my unassembled SDE box, and fear for my RK pledge too.

What's to fear? I thought RK existed as a purely theoretical concept these days. Sought after like the Higgs Boson of miniatures. Schrodinger's campaign, in a constant state of both rapidly progressing and nowhere near development?

... I really shouldn't be so blase about their suffering. For all we know we'll be complaining about how RRT or just wave 2 or whatever "probably won't make this Gencon either" next year.

Talk about some shattered faith. And the best part are a few of the white knights in the comments valiantly proclaiming that 'no, it's just the same few voices, totally not bunches of new people attracted to the gak storm that's brewing".

Sorry man, I'm a damned (literally, damned) veteran of these comments. We're seeing new names on a daily basis at this point. Not all attention is good attention, and they're getting a lot of it currently.

This will probably simmer down again in a few days, though like Max and Miriya there'll be flare ups as new people join the conversation and express their frustration/outrage, but it's going to be in the background for weeks and perhaps even months to come.

Off hand, the only thing that can really propel people past this is some unambiguously good news. "Molds are done, figure production began 34 minutes ago" sort of thing. "Wave one is done, loading on a ship, departure is scheduled for next week", something really tangible.

The juxtaposition of how far and ready and prepared they will claim to be one day, versus what little there is to show for it, remains jarring. Granted, at least now we're seeing prototypes and claims of actual progress into production, but 3.5 months from the end of June, 5 months until the middle of August? Still going to need a miracle to even be in the same ballpark unless they fire things up soon. We're rapidly hitting the "gak or get off the pot" point of no return here.

Which could be part of why they're busy trying to quell the annoyed sentiments with what they've produced, there simply isn't time to spend a day or three fixing up the matter. Annoyed as I am at the idea of my Spartan squad having around 140 parts (even if they're not all used, it is most of them), at this point I'm not sure I have faith they can really 'fix' these issues without another 6-12 months, and I'd rather this not become another Ogre style running gag.

As I've said elsewhere, given the choice of taking C+/B- (and I'm being generous here) 'soon(tm)' or B-/B models in a year, I'll take 'em sooner rather than later.

Not to worry, guys. Ninja Division has learned from their previous kickstarters and has done the majority of the work for their current one prior to the campaign so they expect a quick turn around and promise to keep in regular communication throughout... I'll leave it to forar to add the necessary visual queue.

Again, because this will be Soda Pop aka Ninja Divisions first solo project without the aid of Cool Mini, Harmony Gold or Palladium this is why they need the kickstarter to get all the expenses of mass production out of the way.

What I get out of this is that the Forgotten Kings Kickstarter is supposed to help set up the production lines that are needed for all of their minis. i.e. in addition to the XXXX amount of dollars that they need to create the minis for a given line, they also need a one-time YYYY amount of dollars to get the whole thing rolling. And they're using the Forgotten Kings KS to do that.

Of course, that doesn't exactly fit with the way I understand miniatures production to work. But it's the impression that I got from that quoted sentence.