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Although I don't really care too much, the way the poll is structured makes me want to vote no on principal. I'm inclined to vote yes in reality as I could see PB putting all the No votes to the end of the line for fulfillment.

So not voting is implied consent? Not really sure how that works, but I'm glad he's got a shovel with which to dig his own hole.

They can't delete comments on kickstarter. They can flag them however for review if you break the "be nice" rules on the site though.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Can't delete comments on KS.

Yeah, I guess they would already have done so repeatedly if they could >_>

Ugh, PB is absolutely repellant to me now.

Voted.

'Selling' at Gen Con is really not *that* important, having a presence is what is important.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Voted.

'Selling' at Gen Con is really not *that* important, having a presence is what is important.

Of course, their real objective is not having a presence, but making some bucks...

I have to say that I admit I'm surprised at how many yes votes they're getting, largely from first time posters. I had a suspicion that I'd see lots of double or triple voting but I didn't find any in the very limited subset of 2 pages I checked (the first page of comments and one in the middle). If that is the will of the general backer populace then so be it. I guess after all this time I invested way too much time and effort and consternation into this project and just need to step way the feth back.

delete

Pretty sure the idea they have is that "If you can't be bothered to vote 'No,' then you probably agree to some extent."

I haven't voted yet, but really, RT is not that late. Sure, my perspective is a little skewed (Thank you Ogre! Or Relic Knights! Or several others), but I also knew from the beginning that the Dec 2013 was an insane date. I did not expect it before this summer at the earliest, so getting mine sometime around GenCon, even if I only get the initial wave at that point, makes it no worse than other projects I have backed. (Rivet Wars was only a few months late for the initial, IIRC, but the Wave 2 stuff is in a race to get to me before RT, and may not win. C'est la vie, and all that.)

Having some to actually sell is partially about making money, but I suspect that Palladium really wants to get this into the hands of people at GenCon to try and remove the stink that has been floating around the internet about it. Shipping a few hundred copies to GenCon is going to impact the shipping schedule for the KS backers not at all - it's having the staff presence at GenCon that will cause a delay in KS shipments, if anything.

I may be disappointed, but OTOH, these are still a luxury item, little plastic soldier men that I bought, and will eventually get to use. I have too many games and not enough time as it is, so the fact that RT models aren't sitting on my desk right now simply means that I have some time to work on WM, or RK, or SDE, or. . . .

If you're going to compare it to Relic Knights, you need to keep this in mind. RK shipped EVERYTHING in one go. RT is shipping in waves so really, if you want to compare them, compare it after you find out how many years after the estimated delivery date they will finish shipping the WHOLE of the RT KS

Sining wrote:
If you're going to compare it to Relic Knights, you need to keep this in mind. RK shipped EVERYTHING in one go. RT is shipping in waves so really, if you want to compare them, compare it after you find out how many years after the estimated delivery date they will finish shipping the WHOLE of the RT KS

Yes, I know that RK managed to ship everything in one wave (well, shipping is still wrapping up, but still), as did WWX. But Rivet Wars is two waves, and the second is not yet done. And, with RT shipping in two waves, as long as wave 2 is coming in early 2015, they are no worse off than RK was. (And Ogre did everything in one swoop, and was over a year late as well.) I'll grant that they may be that late - but you know what, it doesn't bother me. If I really wanted something now, I would not back KS projects that interest me. I back things on the expectation that, if they are funded, then eventually I will get the product.

Not sure which I think it worse - something being a year or more late, but getting it all at once, or something being a year or more late, but getting the core game and some select models before that point, with the remainder coming at that year or more point.

warlordgarou wrote:
Pretty sure the idea they have is that "If you can't be bothered to vote 'No,' then you probably agree to some extent."

I haven't voted yet, but really, RT is not that late. Sure, my perspective is a little skewed (Thank you Ogre! Or Relic Knights! Or several others), but I also knew from the beginning that the Dec 2013 was an insane date. I did not expect it before this summer at the earliest, so getting mine sometime around GenCon, even if I only get the initial wave at that point, makes it no worse than other projects I have backed. (Rivet Wars was only a few months late for the initial, IIRC, but the Wave 2 stuff is in a race to get to me before RT, and may not win. C'est la vie, and all that.)

As Sining mentions, this is only a partial amount. While it makes up most of the physical count of the pledge, it makes up less than a third of the actual units available. You can't stop the clock until Wave 2 of RRT has arrived. EDIT: And to add to your following post, I think early 2015 is unlikely. I fully expect to see this play out again at GenCon 2015, with PB saying they NEED to release some of the finished Wave 2 items to the public, but don't you worry, when Wave 2 is complete, it'll be bundled off to you. If I were a problem gambler, I'd put it on October/November next year.

warlordgarou wrote:
Having some to actually sell is partially about making money, but I suspect that Palladium really wants to get this into the hands of people at GenCon to try and remove the stink that has been floating around the internet about it. Shipping a few hundred copies to GenCon is going to impact the shipping schedule for the KS backers not at all - it's having the staff presence at GenCon that will cause a delay in KS shipments, if anything.

Actually, depending on how many they're sending, and how many they're getting, in addition to your mentioned staff absence, it'll delay KS shipments. What it won't do, is generate any real impetus. The number of boxes needed to make an impact at GenCon, is well north of a "few hundred".

As someone pointed out on the KS, last year's Max and Miriya were "a few hundred", and he lined up first thing every day, and only got one of the pair (Miriya). I recall walking past a couple of times before lunch, and overhearing "Yeah, they're all gone, try again tomorrow. So, it looks like a significant percentage of the crowd are gonna get doinked by Palladium. Yay! Palladium are giving them that Kickstarter experience! Excitement and hype only pay off, if you have people walking away happy, with product. And either there's enough to go around, which means backers are getting double-doinked, or there's not, and PB just blew some goodwill (not all the now peeved backers were previously peeved) for no appreciable benefit. Similarly, if their optimistic as hell shipping timeline (seriously, they had better of signed the shipping contract in blood at a crossroads) falls through, again, a lot of angst generated, for no return.

That's not to say they shouldn't have a presence there. Absolutely. Demos galore, and not just the tiny 2' table ones. Full 6x4 full sized games that people can see in action. A few open display boxes, and the display case with all the completed Wave 2 prototypes (though I'd get a professional modeller to clean them up). The ability to sign up for the product. Instructions on how to be a part of the emergent community (they ARE still trying to get "organised play" off the ground, right?). There is a metric buttload of stuff they can do that'll have a bigger impact than (and less blowback) selling 50-75 boxes a day, mostly before the doors open (assuming few means few).

How much of a delay it causes depends entirely on how many boxes they ship to GenCon, and what their inventory levels are like. If they have 10,000 units, and 7500 are promised to KS backers, then shipping 500 to GenCon won't matter. If they have 7500 units (so just enough for the KS backers), with more coming in during GenCon, and they ship 1500 to GenCon, then yeah, KS backers would get delayed.

I suspect "several hundred" means about 100 boxes/day wort of allotment, and I hope they have a big demo presence.

Regarding excitement and hype paying off only if you have product - PP has run out of stuff on day 1 before, and it hasn't seemed to hurt them anyway.

Anyway, YMMV. I don't think it's worth getting all worked up over it. I'll get them when I get them, and go from there. Venting my spleen over this seems pointless - I'll vent it over WWX LOS rules, or some rules wordings in RK instead.

ETA - my initial post did reference getting only the initial wave during August, but it may not have been clear. Yeah, I know it is coming in two (or more) waves. The more I think about it, the more I'd rather have the core game early, and the rest of it later, than everything all at once, but at a later date.

Shipping 500 to Gencon off the top will most certainly matter.

They say they have "4-5 cargo trailers" coming with product. Say each of those holds about 2k boxes, and the Backers ordered around 6,500 (a little higher than the numbers I've worked out previously, but rounded for simplicity).

First container holds 2k boxes. 500 go to Gencon, 1,500 ship to backers. They finish up shipping from that section within the week. 500 boxes that COULD have gone to backers are being sold at Gencon instead, which could represent anywhere from 100 to 500 separate orders. That's 100-500 backers who are waiting extra days or longer for their package, just so PB can have some to sell.

And that carries on through the entire shipment. Container 2 arrives, 500 of those boxes head out to people that would have gotten their packages with container 1, and 100-500 backers from what would have been container 2 now have to wait for container 3.

Now, suppose container 3 gets held up in customs, or there's bad weather and it takes an extra week (all told) to get things in and sorted out.

And container 4 ends up on the Lost island.

See where I'm getting at here? Lopping a "couple hundred" off the top could have ramifications flowing all the way through the rest of the backer deliveries, and magnifies with each delay, where people at the end of the line are possibly waiting entire weeks extra (or more, who knows what shenanigans we're going to see and hear about).

Chaos theory style, one small change can have a large effect far enough down the line.

Now, that said, if every "Yes" voter was also willing to have their name put to the back of the line, then I'm totally on board. Everyone's happy. The Yes's make up for the hundreds they sell at Gencon, the No's aren't any further back than they would've been anyway.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting. Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".

Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.

Love your work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:
still not sure what I will vote, since some of the aspects of voting they gave seem shady at best, especially the part where all non-voters will be considered yes.

It's incredibly shady, especially since most backers won't even know about their bs poll. I found out by reading this thread.

Oh, and I voted, too. I know it's heresy to an extent here to not be bothered about them selling at Gencon, but speaking as someone who won't be at/can't get to Gencon, I wouldn't mind them selling some there if they were also willing to let attendee backers pick their copies up as well. But since they're not willing to do that, my vote is:

NO.

 Azazelx wrote:
It's incredibly shady, especially since most backers won't even know about their bs poll. I found out by reading this thread.

Won't most backers read about it when they get the Update #149 email?

 Brasidas wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
It's incredibly shady, especially since most backers won't even know about their bs poll. I found out by reading this thread.

Won't most backers read about it when they get the Update #149 email?

From what I've seen, read, and participated in, most backers stop giving a gak about campaigns long before some random update on a project that's approaching a year late for less than half delivery.

I imagine untold emails will sit unread in inboxes and spam folders, or people will simply ignore them (this is the 149th update, after all, and they are notorious for being length and not saying anything of importance).

"Does it say they're shipping? No? Something about Gencon? Not going, don't care."

The elections for the most powerful position of political power in the world doesn't even see 60% turn out. This would be astounding if it got to 20%. During what was previously the most contentious issue in the campaign ("Spartangate") I counted up unique names in the comments, and came up with something like 4-5% participation.

This deck was stacked at *least* 40% in Yes's favour with their simply baffling manner of counting non-votes. They're asking for an opinion and then telling people what their opinion is. That's not a question, it's an insult.

I think you're going to be surprised at the number of people voting, and it looks like the "yes" votes are winning by a fairly large majority. At this point, they could easily not count anyone not voting, and be still be able to sell at Gencon.

 Brasidas wrote:
I think you're going to be surprised at the number of people voting, and it looks like the "yes" votes are winning by a fairly large majority. At this point, they could easily not count anyone not voting, and be still be able to sell at Gencon.

No doubt about it. Which makes their tainting of the voting process all the sadder.

I respect that it at least appears my opinion falls with a vocal minority.

That doesn't make their bullgak any less shady.

Edit: but I stand by my assessment. There's a lot of votes, no doubt about it, but we're barely at 1000 posts and there are tons of multi-posts in there. They may have 500 unique votes, perhaps 800, but that's still barely in the 10-15% range, and participation will probably drop off sharply in the next day or two (while the post count continues to explode as people make it the general chat area once more).

Yeah, I think by this time tomorrow the flamewar/debate will be clogging up most of the results.

Voted yes. I know how long it takes my stuff I order from 'Murica to cross the Freedom Sea and get to my continent, so others getting their stuff before me is hardly an issue. What I would like is some (potential) hype generated to help me get some fence sitters over here interested in playing.

And for more sweet, sweet nerdrage tears to brighten my dreary days! Man, totes can't wait for all those lawsuits to start :p!

 Evil_Toast wrote:
And for more sweet, sweet nerdrage tears to brighten my dreary days! Man, totes can't wait for all those lawsuits to start :p!

Some dudes just can't help but kick a man when he's down.

:-(

 Forar wrote:


Some dudes just can't help but kick a man when he's down.

:-(

 Forar wrote:

 Evil_Toast wrote:
And for more sweet, sweet nerdrage tears to brighten my dreary days! Man, totes can't wait for all those lawsuits to start :p!

Some dudes just can't help but kick a man when he's down.

:-(

Seriously it's not shady...
No other organization in the world will operate in another fashion- not one- because they laid it out in the methodology- if you don't vote you are automatically a yes- so choosing not to vote is an automatic agreement.100% of backers are being made aware of this poll so it's not like they can't vote. If they were waiting to the end to say that then it would be different and I might be upset. That said, they let you know from the start how this poll will work.
If a backer can't be bothered to vote in this then the backer doesn't care if it's being sold at Gencon- which is a yes. That's the simple truth here.

warlordgarou wrote:
Having some to actually sell is partially about making money, but I suspect that Palladium really wants to get this into the hands of people at GenCon to try and remove the stink that has been floating around the internet about it. Shipping a few hundred copies to GenCon is going to impact the shipping schedule for the KS backers not at all - it's having the staff presence at GenCon that will cause a delay in KS shipments, if anything.

Yeah... see, if that's what they want, I say... Yeah, by all means, do this: allow any disgruntled backer that wants a refund to get one and bring as many boxes to sell as the refunds you've given.

efarrer wrote:
Seriously it's not shady...
No other organization in the world will operate in another fashion- not one- because they laid it out in the methodology- if you don't vote you are automatically a yes- so choosing not to vote is an automatic agreement.100% of backers are being made aware of this poll so it's not like they can't vote. If they were waiting to the end to say that then it would be different and I might be upset. That said, they let you know from the start how this poll will work.
If a backer can't be bothered to vote in this then the backer doesn't care if it's being sold at Gencon- which is a yes. That's the simple truth here.

That's crazy talk.

There are untold reasons why a person may or may not choose to publicly vote, that doesn't give Palladium the right to tell them how they feel.

As I said, during the most controversial time in this campaign's history we had somewhere around 4-5% participation, for and against alike.

We can have TEN TIMES that many people vote and it''d still be a Yes by at least a 60-40 margin, and quite possibly an 80-20 margin. They claimed they were taking a vote, but also flat out showed us the giant boxes already stuffed with ballots in one direction.

 Forar wrote:
Shipping 500 to Gencon off the top will most certainly matter.

They say they have "4-5 cargo trailers" coming with product. Say each of those holds about 2k boxes, and the Backers ordered around 6,500 (a little higher than the numbers I've worked out previously, but rounded for simplicity).

First container holds 2k boxes. 500 go to Gencon, 1,500 ship to backers. They finish up shipping from that section within the week. 500 boxes that COULD have gone to backers are being sold at Gencon instead, which could represent anywhere from 100 to 500 separate orders. That's 100-500 backers who are waiting extra days or longer for their package, just so PB can have some to sell.

And that carries on through the entire shipment. Container 2 arrives, 500 of those boxes head out to people that would have gotten their packages with container 1, and 100-500 backers from what would have been container 2 now have to wait for container 3.

Now, suppose container 3 gets held up in customs, or there's bad weather and it takes an extra week (all told) to get things in and sorted out.

And container 4 ends up on the Lost island.

See where I'm getting at here? Lopping a "couple hundred" off the top could have ramifications flowing all the way through the rest of the backer deliveries, and magnifies with each delay, where people at the end of the line are possibly waiting entire weeks extra (or more, who knows what shenanigans we're going to see and hear about).

Chaos theory style, one small change can have a large effect far enough down the line.

Now, that said, if every "Yes" voter was also willing to have their name put to the back of the line, then I'm totally on board. Everyone's happy. The Yes's make up for the hundreds they sell at Gencon, the No's aren't any further back than they would've been anyway.

Yes, it certainly could affect shipping. Or (and I am guessing this is more likely) - PP has X number of people packing KS orders. If PP takes 500 from the first container, can X people pack the remaining 1.5k boxes before container 2 gets there? If yes, and PP has people standing around doing nothing, waiting for container 2 to arrive, then it certainly does affect everyone past that first 1500. If X people are stilling packing from container 1 when container 2 arrives, then PP taking 500 of them will only affect shipping if a later container gets stuck in customs or something else happens to it. If all goes smoothly, no one even knows. PP is willing to take the chance that everything is going to go well enough that it does not matter in any significant way.

PP could put mine at the end of the line, and it won't bother me any. Mine was one of the last Ogre pledges to go out the door, and my WWX shipped after they said all the shipping was done. It happens, and someone has to be last. A couple locals are still waiting on the ship notices for their RK; though I got lucky and got mine just over a week ago.

And there is no way that PP can allow people to pick pledges up at GenCon. That's a logistical nightmare waiting to happen.

Not being able to keep up with the containers as they arrive would be its own series of problems.

We're talking about a company that said they think it'll take 3 weeks for the ship to leave China until the time they have the container at their warehouse. From what I've read, calling this 'optimistic' is orders of magnitude off from reality.

The whole premise is flawed from the start.

 Forar wrote:
Not being able to keep up with the containers as they arrive would be its own series of problems.

We're talking about a company that said they think it'll take 3 weeks for the ship to leave China until the time they have the container at their warehouse. From what I've read, calling this 'optimistic' is orders of magnitude off from reality.

The whole premise is flawed from the start.

I'm assuming that shipping is going to be a total clusterfark, taking much longer than anticipated (especially with staff either prepping for GenCon or gone for GenCon), and X number of units going to GenCon won't affect the shipping to the KS backers in the slightest because of that. In that regard, the only difference in Yes or No votes is whether or not PP sells stuff at GenCon.