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 Taarnak wrote:

Bad_Syntax wrote:

Because Harmony Gold doesn't have exclusive rights to Macross stuff. In fact, they only have rights here in the US I think. In Japan they lost some suite and do not have rights. I remember reading some big discussion on that whole lawsuit thing, and its crazy complicated. More than any of us non-lawyer non-in-the-know types could try to pretend we understand.

If HG has the ability to license an RPG, then surely they have the ability to license a miniatures game, right? PB is still a US company, so I don't see what difference US vs ROW rights would have.

Not a lawyer, and I don't have all the facts. I do suspect that it has more to do with PB's practices and non-adaptive ways than with HG's ability to create/add a miniatures game license.

~Eric

The setting of Robotech is marginally different than the source anime, as such it is a different story done in the imagination, and easier to mass market. There may already be a Macross Miniatures wargame out, as such the similar models could cause issues when treating it as a war game, but as an addition to the RPG might not cause the same issue.

Just a guess, legalize is so convoluted as to be a pain for those without the education in navigating it.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Bad_Syntax wrote:

So please, somebody, tell me a system that is more complete than battletech is.

That's perfect....and also the problem at time....there are so many rules to do so many things that Battletech games can take forever to play. Alpha Strike is a move in the right direction.

Also it divides the limited pool of players.
"Anyone for a game of Alpha Strike 2055?"
"Oh, I only like classic 2025....maybe frank might have a 2055 army set up?"
Frank - "Nah I bought dark age tonight"

The other thing is having such a 'complete universe' with a million books is that it is so overwhelming for a new player that there are no new players. The people who play BT are the people who have played for 20 years because newbies get bombarded with lore, different ages and types of play and just go 'stuff it XXX game is just so much easier'

Dont get me wrong, I like BT and started in the early 90's but it needs to have a universe wipe and start again. Even the introductary box set isnt set in the actual current timeline so if someone wanted to play the 'current age' game the mechs from the box set are useless.

 Taarnak wrote:

If HG has the ability to license an RPG, then surely they have the ability to license a miniatures game, right? PB is still a US company, so I don't see what difference US vs ROW rights would have.

Not a lawyer, and I don't have all the facts. I do suspect that it has more to do with PB's practices and non-adaptive ways than with HG's ability to create/add a miniatures game license.

Not necessarily. *most* of the time *most* western nations (and Japan, but NOT China) respect IP/copyright laws of other western nations. However, every now and then a company can win a lawsuit in 1 country and be allowed to do something, when in another country or the RotW they are not allowed to.

As we have ZERO real information why, and only conjecture, the best information I am aware of on this was the RPG license holder, Kevin, telling me to my face that HG could not and would not allow PB to "Take the reigns" so to speak, and had final say on *everything*, even if it was against what PB wanted to do.

IP/Copyright law is a disgrace to humanity. It should never be transferable out of the human that creates it, it looses integrity and becomes corrupted as soon as some company like Disney decides they want to keep a copyright on Mickey Mouse decades after the original creator is dead.

Bad_Syntax wrote:

Not necessarily. *most* of the time *most* western nations (and Japan, but NOT China) respect IP/copyright laws of other western nations. However, every now and then a company can win a lawsuit in 1 country and be allowed to do something, when in another country or the RotW they are not allowed to.

As we have ZERO real information why, and only conjecture, the best information I am aware of on this was the RPG license holder, Kevin, telling me to my face that HG could not and would not allow PB to "Take the reigns" so to speak, and had final say on *everything*, even if it was against what PB wanted to do.

IP/Copyright law is a disgrace to humanity. It should never be transferable out of the human that creates it, it looses integrity and becomes corrupted as soon as some company like Disney decides they want to keep a copyright on Mickey Mouse decades after the original creator is dead.

You have the quotes in your reply backwards.

I get that there is some cooperation between countries with respect to IP. Really though, that has nothing to do with the situation here. HG appear to be the de facto rights holder with respect to the Robotech property within the US. This, of course, is what allows them to create a license for said property. In PB's case, the license is for use in an RPG. Without knowing more, I can see no reason whatsoever (and I doubt one exists) that HG cannot expand PB's license to include a miniatures game. They have licensed (a) video game(s).

What Kevin said to you sounds more like pre-staging an excuse or fall guy to me. Many licensors seem to be the same way (Lucas/Disney & GW) and yet other companies seem to be able to navigate those barriers just fine (FFG).

I'm no fan of IP Law and they direction it is taking either, but that seems wildly off topic, even for this subset of the main thread topic.

Here is just the fiasco with the battletech unseen:
http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=2859

And another:
http://he2etic.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/robotech-vs-battletech-vs-macross-ip-fight/

Essentially, the whole IP thing is not very clear cut, and its nuts. Only lawyers (and not internet couch lawyers) can really understand what is going on here.

Thing is, we simply have to accept what we are given, and the reasons we are given. We don't have to like them, nor even believe them, but we all have to accept them. Gotta come to peace with that or just get all mad over a game when you probably have many others on your shelves unplayed.

Bad_Syntax wrote:
Here is just the fiasco with the battletech unseen:
http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=2859

And another:
http://he2etic.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/robotech-vs-battletech-vs-macross-ip-fight/

Essentially, the whole IP thing is not very clear cut, and its nuts. Only lawyers (and not internet couch lawyers) can really understand what is going on here.

FASA and it's entanglements with HG over mech designs in Battletech have absolutely nothing in common with PB creating a miniatures game vs an RPG "expansion". FASA used the mech designs without clear license to do so. HG has the right and ability to grant PB a clear and clean license to use the Robotech IP in a miniatures game, from all evidence.

IP law and it's interpretations are very labyrinthine and complex. I still have yet to see anything that suggests that IP law has anything to do with this question though.

Also, you basically called me too stupid to understand the situation. Which I don't particularly appreciate, especially on the heels of your completely unrelated examples.

Bad_Syntax wrote:

Thing is, we simply have to accept what we are given, and the reasons we are given. We don't have to like them, nor even believe them, but we all have to accept them. Gotta come to peace with that or just get all mad over a game when you probably have many others on your shelves unplayed.

We have to do no such thing. I may have to accept that I will only get those reasons or, more likely, nothing at all. However given the somewhat...colorful, history of PB, I almost certainly won't believe a thing they say.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:

Also, you basically called me too stupid to understand the situation. Which I don't particularly appreciate, especially on the heels of your completely unrelated examples.

Noooo, I said you didn't know the details, as you aren't an IP lawyer, nor do you have access to all of the legal documents around the whole macross/HG thing, nor do you have access to the internal workings of Harmony Gold/Palladium/Ninja Division.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, but just throwing out wild accusations because you believe its true isn't very useful to anybody. I was told by the person *mostly* in charge of this whole fiasco, and he said HG was placing serious limits on what they could do and how they could do it. There could be some licensing thing between PB/HG, or who knows maybe Kevin lied to my face.

But at least I did get *some* information from somebody "in the know", which is more than you have presented here so far.

But I think you'll be hard pressed to find anybody, PB included, that think this KS hasn't been mismanaged in many ways. It isn't like this KS is unique either, MANY others are the same way. So what is the point in bringing up all the flaws over and over and over again? What does that achieve? Actually, what does complaining in anybody's life really achieve? Actions achieve things, not complaining. Heck, the great creator "The Oatmeal" even cracked a pretty good joke about it:

http://theoatmeal.com/blog/kickstartmart

You will be much happier when you get your stuff. Though its a pain to assemble, every other miniatures based KS I've done (a lot) aside from Zombicide has had considerable assembly as well, and at least I haven't had to put the RRT parts in hot water to make them fit. Now that I'm done with the zentraedi, and nearly done with model #10 of 20 for the UEDF, I am quite excited to try and run a demo next weekend for folks. The decades of waiting for these products is at hand, and I will finally be able to do what I wanted to for so long. I can't wait for other people to start painting them up so I can see the great paint schemes, better modeling abilities, and cool scratch building they do. I feel like what I got was very much worth the money. I got most of the battletech unseen for under $2 each, and at most under $4, that is just awesome and I hope the game really takes off.

 Taarnak wrote:
We have to do no such thing. I may have to accept that I will only get those reasons or, more likely, nothing at all. However given the somewhat...colorful, history of PB, I almost certainly won't believe a thing they say.

Ok, you don't accept it, everybody is entitled to their opinion. So what do you hope to accomplish in this forum by telling us?

Bad_Syntax wrote:
The decades of waiting for these products is at hand

Did Kevin tell you that's how long shipping to backers will take?

 Kendachi wrote:

Bad_Syntax wrote:
The decades of waiting for these products is at hand

Did Kevin tell you that's how long shipping to backers will take?

Hehe, nope.

But he did say the 4th container would "fulfill all the KS orders for wave 1", and the last update mentioned a 5th (though he wasn't aware of their status, that was Wayne's job).

I would really hope everybody gets their wave 1 by the end of the year. Wave 2 though, if I had to pull a date out of my butt, I'd say summer of 2015. Just a heads up, the last date I pulled out of my butt was Dec 2013, when I said "they had the month right, but the wrong year!". I like to think I was joking, but I am pretty sure it was just my ability to foretell the future coming to fruition.

bbl, going to buy a lottery ticket because it is time for the numbers 01-02-03-04-05-06-07-08 to be selected.

Bad_Syntax wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:

Also, you basically called me too stupid to understand the situation. Which I don't particularly appreciate, especially on the heels of your completely unrelated examples.

Noooo, I said you didn't know the details, as you aren't an IP lawyer, nor do you have access to all of the legal documents around the whole macross/HG thing, nor do you have access to the internal workings of Harmony Gold/Palladium/Ninja Division.

You are back pedaling. You clearly intended, if not outright insult, then to make yourself look clever at my expense.

Bad_Syntax wrote:

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, but just throwing out wild accusations because you believe its true isn't very useful to anybody. I was told by the person *mostly* in charge of this whole fiasco, and he said HG was placing serious limits on what they could do and how they could do it. There could be some licensing thing between PB/HG, or who knows maybe Kevin lied to my face.

Nope. Not wrong. I know nothing of the particulars of HG's or PB's business practices,nor of the licenses and agreements between the two. Which would be why I asked my initial question:
"So, why is it that the licensor (HG) could not grant the licensee (PB) a new license or an addendum to their current license granting them the ability to make a miniatures game, exactly?"

I believe it was Mike1975 that initially suggested that it was not possible for PB to make this a standalone miniatures game and instead were forced to make it as an expansion to the RPG. Given what information we do have (HG owns rights to Robotech in US but not ROW, HG has granted PB a license to make a Robotech RPG) that assertion seems ridiculous. I was looking for more information on why it might be true.

Bad_Syntax wrote:

But at least I did get *some* information from somebody "in the know", which is more than you have presented here so far.

I never presented anything here ever. I merely asked a question. One which you have offered no answer to but danced around in various ways doing your absolute best to paint PB in the most positive light possible.

I did voice my doubts and suspicions about the reasons for the trials and tribulations suffered by the Robotech miniatures game so far.

Bad_Syntax wrote:

But I think you'll be hard pressed to find anybody, PB included, that think this KS hasn't been mismanaged in many ways. It isn't like this KS is unique either, MANY others are the same way. So what is the point in bringing up all the flaws over and over and over again? What does that achieve? Actually, what does complaining in anybody's life really achieve? Actions achieve things, not complaining. Heck, the great creator "The Oatmeal" even cracked a pretty good joke about it:

http://theoatmeal.com/blog/kickstartmart

Other Kickstsrters have nothing to do with this one. Also, we have PB's prior behavior towards crowd funded products to consider ("Crisis of Treachery!").

The flaws are there. Not talking about them won't make them go away, which is unfortunate for some.

Ah, another veiled insult/attempt to look clever. I'm sensing a pattern forming...

Bad_Syntax wrote:

You will be much happier when you get your stuff. Though its a pain to assemble, every other miniatures based KS I've done (a lot) aside from Zombicide has had considerable assembly as well, and at least I haven't had to put the RRT parts in hot water to make them fit. Now that I'm done with the zentraedi, and nearly done with model #10 of 20 for the UEDF, I am quite excited to try and run a demo next weekend for folks. The decades of waiting for these products is at hand, and I will finally be able to do what I wanted to for so long. I can't wait for other people to start painting them up so I can see the great paint schemes, better modeling abilities, and cool scratch building they do. I feel like what I got was very much worth the money. I got most of the battletech unseen for under $2 each, and at most under $4, that is just awesome and I hope the game really takes off.

I will be happier when I get my stuff true. Despite my better judgement I allowed my friends' enthusiasm push me into pledging for this Kickstarter. Luckily I have Gruntz rules to fall back on because so far the RRT rules are a train wreck.

I'm glad you have your stuff and happy for you that you are so enthusiastic about it. Hopefully you can get a good group going.

Bad_Syntax wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:
We have to do no such thing. I may have to accept that I will only get those reasons or, more likely, nothing at all. However given the somewhat...colorful, history of PB, I almost certainly won't believe a thing they say.

Ok, you don't accept it, everybody is entitled to their opinion. So what do you hope to accomplish in this forum by telling us?

Right back at you: What did you hope to accomplish? Why bother to tell everyone your opinion?

~Eric

In a good example of how complex things are, you can see it in this thread where the issue gets confused. However, even without being a lawyer there's a bit of clarity to be brought to the "Japan issue" at least.

From my reading on the topic (and I find the Kotaku summary to be a decent read), it appears that Robotech and the first story arc of Macross are fine. The Japanese court case established that Tatsunoko Production, who HG got their license from, is the rightful owner of the animation used for both Robotech and Macross and that they could also grant the international distribution/merchandising rights to the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series which HG purchased. That's pretty much a settled issue and, as far as Robotech is really concerned, HG appears to be free-and-clear on that particular point.

Where HG has sailed into legal murky waters is that they claim the entire Macross series is their's to distribute, and on this point the Japanese courts do not agree. Tatsunoko only had merchandising rights to Super Dimension Fortress Macross, not the whole franchise. HG could end up in a legal bind if Studio Nue or Big West ever assert their IP rights in the US, but it wouldn't be that their ability to grant Robotech licenses would be invalidated. I can see where there's a risk they might go bankrupt from court costs and/or penalties if they lost, but in the strict confines of Robotech everything seems to be above board.

So I'm with those wondering why it HAD to be an expansion of the RPG and couldn't be a "miniatures game"; there's always plenty of twists and turns but I'd like documented evidence and not just the word of someone who is quite willing to break promises as regards release dates, shipping order, and the like. Being "in the know" and being someone "who tells the truth" aren't quite the same thing. Granted, looking at the parties involved I doubt such evidence would be easily accessible, if it exists.

On an unrelated note, the models look okay actually. Not "mouth-watering", not awesome...I'd be hesitant to even throw the word "good" in there, but they are certainly passable. It's not what the backers were promised perhaps and they have certainly taken too long in getting here, but they're not total crap from what I can see of the unpainted ones. Just crap in comparison to what was promised (see also: reference to them being an unreliable source above).

why do all palladium fans like to proclaim they are in the know or know somebody in the know.

As much as I enjoy watching a good e-peen competition over who's right this one has gotten a bit stale. It has nothing to do with the FASA lawsuit/ruling.

PB can only make an RPG game due to how their license works out, hence why the miniatures are being billed as "game accessories" for their RPG not as a miniatures game. There are other holders to the Robotech license that have the rights to toys and models which a proper miniatures game would fall under. Typically when a company issues out multiple license options there is a non compete clause included to prevent the holders from stepping on each others toes by offering too similar of products.

Being that the miniatures are plastic and pretty much follow the same breakdowns as their larger model counterparts it could potentially be seen as a competing product for the companies that hold the model rights, it oculd also been seen as a competing product if a company held the rights to games aka board games. That's why there's a lot of very careful and specific wordage in how they are marketing their product as it fits within a very narrow criteria.

Because of the way the license is worded and game rights being held by other sources there's currently no way in which somebody could produce a miniatures game. (that wasn't associated with the license holder or PB's RPG) How the rights are divided is fairly complex due to there being several different holders involved and several of which are in a holding pattern due to pending/potential movie deals.


(This isn't speculation, it's direct info from Tommy Yune at HG)

Wow... That's the best type to trolling I have ever read! Bad_Syntax is already being all polite and forward and still gets flamed. kinda like seeing a boxer knocked down but still gets punched in the nuts by the opponent.

Anyways, its unlikely we will get any definite 'proof' of the coincequense of creating a Robotech minitures game because those involved are smart enough to go around it. Bad_Syntax's link are the rare examples of companies who didn't see the mindfield ahead and got blown up. If you can't take no for an answer maybe you should create the miniture game and see what happens?

We may be watching PB self destruct while doing it.

Following them into the furnace seems unwise.

Thanks for the input, Paulson, appreciate it.

 paulson games wrote:
As much as I enjoy watching a good e-peen competition over who's right this one has gotten a bit stale. It has nothing to do with the FASA lawsuit/ruling.

PB can only make an RPG game due to how their license works out, hence why the miniatures are being billed as "game accessories" for their RPG not as a miniatures game. There are other holders to the Robotech license that have the rights to toys and models which a proper miniatures game would fall under. Typically when a company issues out multiple license options there is a non compete clause included to prevent the holders from stepping on each others toes by offering too similar of products.

Being that the miniatures are plastic and pretty much follow the same breakdowns as their larger model counterparts it could potentially be seen as a competing product for the companies that hold the model rights, it oculd also been seen as a competing product if a company held the rights to games aka board games. That's why there's a lot of very careful and specific wordage in how they are marketing their product as it fits within a very narrow criteria.

Because of the way the license is worded and game rights being held by other sources there's currently no way in which somebody could produce a miniatures game. (that wasn't associated with the license holder or PB's RPG)

Well stated. Thank you for the clarification to reduce the murkiness that people like to throw on things.

Well the worst offender of creating murkiness is PB, if any of that information was included in the risks section of the KS I wouldn't have backed.

 paulson games wrote:

Because of the way the license is worded and game rights being held by other sources there's currently no way in which somebody could produce a miniatures game. (that wasn't associated with the license holder or PB's RPG) How the rights are divided is fairly complex due to there being several different holders involved and several of which are in a holding pattern due to pending/potential movie deals.

(This isn't speculation, it's direct info from Tommy Yune at HG)

But how does this square with WRRDs post a few pages back about how FFG was first approached to do RRT.

I doubt it would have changed anything, they would have had to work under Palladium just like how things are structured with Ninja Division, then Harmony Gold gets all final say on the product. From my understanding it wouldn't have been possible for them to work directly with HG because of how the lisc shakes down, so anyone wanting to make a game type product would have had to go through PB for the RPG angle or contacted whoever has the Robotech game rights and worked through them.

I can't really speculate about FFG not having availability, not wanting risk, or not wanting to work in a 3 tiered approval chain of death. I do know the owner of FFG did sit through my demo at Adepticon back in 2012 and checked out all my prototype models (back before I was dropped from the project) and he had very positive comments for the work I'd been doing. I care not to guess as to his mindset about the rest of the project, but who knows maybe he didn't like Kevin or the way PB ran things and it was his way of politely rejecting it, but then again working on Xwing and a bunch of other games is pretty dang huge task and has had plenty to keep them busy with?

But one thing to note is that the miniatures community is fairly small and tight knit. Most of the company owners all know each other on a first name basis, you dump on the wrong person and word travels quickly and bad press will close a lot of doors fast.

 paulson games wrote:
I doubt it would have changed anything, they would have had to work under Palladium just like how things are structured with Ninja Division, then Harmony Gold gets all final say on the product. From my understanding it wouldn't have been possible for them to work directly with HG because of how the lisc shakes down, so anyone wanting to make a game type product would have had to go through PB for the RPG angle or contacted whoever has the Robotech game rights and worked through them.

I can't really speculate about FFG not having availability, not wanting risk, or not wanting to work in a 3 tiered approval chain of death. I do know the owner of FFG did sit through my demo at Adepticon back in 2012 and checked out all my prototype models back before I was dropped from the project and he had very positive comments for the work I'd been doing. I care not to guess as to his mindset about the rest of the project, but who knows maybe he didn't like Kevin or the way PB ran things and it was his way of politely rejecting it, but then again working on Xwing and a bunch of other games is pretty dang huge task and has had plenty to keep them busy with?

But one thing to note is that the miniatures community is fairly small and tight knit. Most of the company owners all know each other on a first name basis, you dump on the wrong person and word travels quickly and bad press will close a lot of doors fast.

Which jives with what I understood of the situation. Thanks

Anyone else get the feeling after reading the comments page that the odds of ever playing this game with a normal person are going to be incredibly slim?

There are normal people?

I think it would be absolutely hilarious if these huge complaints got an influx of cash in their bank account as PB said "Well, since you were so unhappy here is a full refund".

They would then complain that they got the refund, because they'd have to pay full price now. Many of them now say they are just going to sell it when they get it, though I suspect that is mostly just threats.

I will be getting a few folks in my battletech group to play a demo *hopefully* next weekend, they are pretty close to "normal", well, as far as gamers go.

Bad_Syntax wrote:
I think it would be absolutely hilarious if these huge complaints got an influx of cash in their bank account as PB said "Well, since you were so unhappy here is a full refund".

I know of 2 people (directly) that have asked for refunds. The answer they got was "we're not offering refunds".

Other poster over here managed to get a full refund from the credit card company, though.

Joyboozer wrote:
Anyone else get the feeling after reading the comments page that the odds of ever playing this game with a normal person are going to be incredibly slim?

A friend of mine who isn't a table-top gamer was excited about this when the Kickstarter was announced. AFAIK, he bought into it, though I've never confirmed for certain. I've been meaning to check with him to see whether he did invest, and what his opinion on the initial product releases are.

Joyboozer wrote:
Anyone else get the feeling after reading the comments page that the odds of ever playing this game with a normal person are going to be incredibly slim?

"In the wild?" Yeah, I'd be wary of playing this in a tournament or convention setting.

Against anyone? I backed with 2 other people, and we have another 4 that are interested in playing with us using our models, so with 7+ potential players, it may well happen for me.

People without a solid group to start with? Might be kind of screwed. Especially since the refrain is an oft repeated 'just don't play with players like that!' In a small enough pool, that can rapidly become "just don't play".

Oh well, we're about to enter Week 3 of "Shipping out core boxes, heh, we've totally started shipping...".

Some day they'll send out a battle cry, and lo, there will be much rejoicing.

 Forar wrote:

People without a solid group to start with? Might be kind of screwed. Especially since the refrain is an oft repeated 'just don't play with players like that!' In a small enough pool, that can rapidly become "just don't play".

That would be my case. I tried hard to stump for the game during the KS but the best I got from the rather large Battletech crowd was a "Thanks but we'll see how it turns out." In the intervening year, it has become a long running joke they rib me with when they see me, asking if I've gotten my October delivery of mouth watering models. On the bright side, I may be able to say yes this October one year late! :(

Hey hey hey, have faith, Container 2 is at sea!

You might even see them in November!

Wait, that's after October...

*jazz hands*

Sining wrote:
why do all palladium fans like to proclaim they are in the know or know somebody in the know.

Because like every other cult, it's a way for a small, pathetic person to feel special and part of the 'in crowd'.

See also - conspiracy nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:

Bad_Syntax wrote:
I think it would be absolutely hilarious if these huge complaints got an influx of cash in their bank account as PB said "Well, since you were so unhappy here is a full refund".

I know of 2 people (directly) that have asked for refunds. The answer they got was "we're not offering refunds".

Other poster over here managed to get a full refund from the credit card company, though.

And yet Cthulhu Wars, a project for near the same amount of money, and nearly as late, has offered them. Hmm.

Bad_Syntax wrote:
I think it would be absolutely hilarious if these huge complaints got an influx of cash in their bank account as PB

Are you saying the lack of refunds until now would be because of PBs habit of not doing something until after the damage has been done, it's taken them this long to figure out how to do it, or they'd do it and not communicate the fact? Which ineptitude are yo making light of?