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 judgedoug wrote:
Regardless of who was publishing it, the end result of Ninja Division's design work would be the same. I wonder if the criticism would also be the same? (nope, not if it was any other company)

To address this musing, it's entirely possible that the reception would've been different without needing to be tied to strictly "rawr Palladium bad!".

Quality of rules, quality of the pieces, these are subjective (with some objective elements) and will fit or not into people's tastes differently. While ND supposedly wrote the rules, we know that PB was involved in both playtesting and adjusting, along with the (depending on ones viewpoint) anchor that being tied wholeheartedly to their RPG version. It's not like they didn't get input.

But communications? In terms of quality/accuracy? They done fethed up. It's gotten better in recent months, but they spent over a year promising the moon and failing to clear the atmosphere, and the contrast between those lofty aspirations and what has apparently kinda sorta begun delivering to 1/3 - 1/2'ish of the backers has been an issue.

Note; that rough estimate is included simply to indicate that only a fraction of the backer base even has their boxes, meaning that very few people are making fully informed comments/opinions just yet. They claim to have mailed out thousands of boxes (2,500-2,700 perhaps?) but considering a giant pile (over half, maybe even 2/3) of them just went out a week ago, many are probably just reaching those doors now.

 warboss wrote:

Wow, that is some seriously bad reading comprehension fail there, Judge. I'll bold the key part where I first assigned part of the blame to ND. You apparently missed that in your zeal to defend the Maiden Kevin. I'm fully aware that the last four crowdfunding attempts by ND and PB that have started delivering in some fashion have all been at least a year late. There is plenty of blame to go around and I'm sure all four companies involved (ND, PB, HG, and the factory) each contributed.

Ah yes, if you do not whole cloth attack Palladium with every breath that you can muster, you are a white knight for Palladium. Thanks for proving my point.


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 Forar wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Regardless of who was publishing it, the end result of Ninja Division's design work would be the same. I wonder if the criticism would also be the same? (nope, not if it was any other company)

To address this musing, it's entirely possible that the reception would've been different without needing to be tied to strictly "rawr Palladium bad!".

Of course the reception would be entirely different. If it was CMON, Mantic, Reaper, or any other much-beloved Kickstarter company, the hysteric hyperbolic vitriol would have been massively toned down. "Because it's Palladium", "Palladium at it again", "the Maiden Siembieda", etc. Palladium certainly sucked at any sort of comms until, what, about six months ago? I guess whenever Palladium and ND stopped trying to pass the buck and Wayne took over the weekly updates or whatever. Coincidentally that is the same time I personally went from "I give up on this project" to "Now I'm interested again." But any other company under the publisher banner, with the same circumstances and the same actions, would have had an entirely different reaction, despite having the same designers involved.

Looks like a whiteknight, acts like a whiteknight, must be a whiteknight!

 Swabby wrote:
Looks like a whiteknight, acts like a whiteknight, must be a whiteknight!

YES! That's me. A true Palladium white knight, who owns all of their products and defends every decision they have made and... wait.

Tuesday, October 7, at 1:34PM, when my Robotech wave 1 package was delivered, marked the arrival of the first Palladium product that I have purchased in over 20 years and is the only Palladium product that I currently own (I sold my Robotech RPG books back in the late 90's)

SO, I must be a Ninja Division white knight since I like the models and the rules (so far!) A true Soda Pop miniatures white knight, who owns all of their products and... wait

Tuesday, October 7, at 1:34PM, when my Robotech wave 1 package was delivered, marked the arrival of the only product that I own that was designed by ND or Soda Pop or Relic Knights or whatever their company is branded at any given point.

Well gak guys, what should you call me next?

Let's just stick with calling you...


...judgedoug!

And please everyone, let's all get some perspective in here and just enjoy the game!

Judgedoug I am not sure what reaction you expect when you jump into a conversation to defend a product and company that are still racking up scorn among the folks who made the product possible.

It certainly seems different from the reactions people are having.

I mean come on dude, you (or I, or anyone) do not have any idea how another company would have been treated if they were pulling the same stuff over a timeline this long.

 judgedoug wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Wow, that is some seriously bad reading comprehension fail there, Judge. I'll bold the key part where I first assigned part of the blame to ND. You apparently missed that in your zeal to defend the Maiden Kevin. I'm fully aware that the last four crowdfunding attempts by ND and PB that have started delivering in some fashion have all been at least a year late. There is plenty of blame to go around and I'm sure all four companies involved (ND, PB, HG, and the factory) each contributed.

Ah yes, if you do not whole cloth attack Palladium with every breath that you can muster, you are a white knight for Palladium. Thanks for proving my point.

I thought your "point" was that I was incorrectly assigning all the blame to Palladium. I bolded the part of my post that YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED TWICE NOW in an effort to promote better understanding on your part regarding what was actually said. You, in effect, had/have no point.

In any case, has anyone tried playing a game since they got the stuff? I brought the rules and a few sprues to see if anyone was interested at my FLGS and I actually saw someone else did the same (or technically brought his whole battlecry pledge). We didn't play a game since between the two of us there was one model assembled at that point though. He did try assembling some of the Zentraedi as they appeared easier to assemble at first. Pretty much universally, the gamers playing various games (40k, x-wing, AQOTMF) were pretty shocked at the number of small pieces. The other guy assembled the command pack models to mixed results. While it was heartening to see in person assembled models for the first time in over a decade (since I last went to gencon and someone had some bootlegs), it also took him roughly 3 hours to assemble 3 pods. While the recovery pod went together pretty easily as it had the fewest parts count, the recon and glaug pods had roughly 3-4 pieces that broke while clipping off the sprue with clippers due to their tiny size and one piece actually flew off into the air never to be found when clipped. If you're assembling the zents, be very careful when you clip off the multitude of tiny antenna type pieces as they're both fragile and hard to find if lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Mike1975 and anyone else who has played with terrain:

Have you found the buildings too easy to destroy? From the reports at gencon, it seemed like alot of folks (including "do you want me to be nice or an ass?" Jeff Burke) were blowing straight through whole sections of cities. I plan on using the DZC buildings which, other than the largest pieces, would fall under the "office building" category and are less than 5in cubed in volume. At only 4mdc, pretty much every weapon can one shot a building if it manages to hit the proverbial broad side of a barn.

Warboss those times sound right. My first spartan took 4 hours to assemble from start to finish, now I am down to about 40 minutes each model with careful prep work. Still daunting when you look at what is in the box.

The game itself is fun but there are quite a few rules that are up in the air until we hear more from palladium. I would say it has great potential systemwise if it is properly supported.


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And no I do not think the buildings are too easy to destroy.

 Swabby wrote:

And no I do not think the buildings are too easy to destroy.

Really? To each his own I guess. It just seemed odd that each valkyrie can blow apart two buildings per turn with its GU-11 gun pod. I'm not too familiar with the missile rules but that obviously doesn't count the potential for taking out whole blocks; can missiles target multiple buildings even if they don't have the blast trait? Can you take out multiple buildings with a single blast weapon shot? I don't have the rules with me at the moment but it felt a bit much from a reading of the rules.

 warboss wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Wow, that is some seriously bad reading comprehension fail there, Judge. I'll bold the key part where I first assigned part of the blame to ND. You apparently missed that in your zeal to defend the Maiden Kevin. I'm fully aware that the last four crowdfunding attempts by ND and PB that have started delivering in some fashion have all been at least a year late. There is plenty of blame to go around and I'm sure all four companies involved (ND, PB, HG, and the factory) each contributed.

Ah yes, if you do not whole cloth attack Palladium with every breath that you can muster, you are a white knight for Palladium. Thanks for proving my point.

I thought your "point" was that I was incorrectly assigning all the blame to Palladium. I bolded the part of my post that YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED TWICE NOW in an effort to promote better understanding on your part regarding what was actually said. You, in effect, had/have no point.

I've ignored it twice because it's not worth responding to?
My point being the "with us or against us" mentality. If one doesn't attack Palladium with righteous zeal, one must be a white knight. As you ("in your zeal to defend the Maiden Kevin") and swabby (who I can only assume facetiously called me a "White Knight") keep delightfully proving. Because I have a modicum of praise for Ninja Division's efforts (again, the game is "pretty fun" and the models are "quite good"), and don't wholly blame just the publisher - Palladium - I have a, again, "zeal to defend the Maiden Kevin"!

 warboss wrote:
In any case, has anyone tried playing a game since they got the stuff? I brought the rules and a few sprues to see if anyone was interested at my FLGS and I actually saw someone else did the same (or technically brought his whole battlecry pledge). We didn't play a game since between the two of us there was one model assembled at that point though. He did try assembling some of the Zentraedi as they appeared easier to assemble at first. Pretty much universally, the gamers playing various games (40k, x-wing, AQOTMF) were pretty shocked at the number of small pieces. The other guy assembled the command pack models to mixed results. While it was heartening to see in person assembled models for the first time in over a decade (since I last went to gencon and someone had some bootlegs), it also took him roughly 3 hours to assemble 3 pods. While the recovery pod went together pretty easily as it had the fewest parts count, the recon and glaug pods had roughly 3-4 pieces that broke while clipping off the sprue with clippers due to their tiny size and one piece actually flew off into the air never to be found when clipped. If you're assembling the zents, be very careful when you clip off the multitude of tiny antenna type pieces as they're both fragile and hard to find if lost.

Yeah, one game with Manchu, got most of the core rules down, and it was "pretty fun".
I've assembled four Valkyries so far, the last two I got done in about 30 minutes.
Regults take about 10 minutes.
I'm sure it's different for others, as I've had experience assembling 1/72 tanks. With machine guns the size of an eyelash and individual track links. I don't think I ever didn't lose a piece when I was assembling those in my early teens so I think my brain has adapted to holding pieces that are being clipped with side cutters as well as a 90% rating in my Spot Tiny Pieces skill check.



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 warboss wrote:

 Swabby wrote:

And no I do not think the buildings are too easy to destroy.

Really? To each his own I guess. It just seemed odd that each valkyrie can blow apart two buildings per turn with its GU-11 gun pod. I'm not too familiar with the missile rules but that obviously doesn't count the potential for taking out whole blocks; can missiles target multiple buildings even if they don't have the blast trait? Can you take out multiple buildings with a single blast weapon shot? I don't have the rules with me at the moment but it felt a bit much from a reading of the rules.

Haven't used destructible terrain rules yet but a quick glance shows the smaller lighter buildings pretty easy to take out - in your example you'd have to spend CP to do that and still roll to hit (as they have Defense). It also has the caveat that if it's larger than the assumed dimensions, multiple the MDC by the appropriate amount. I'm thinking they are based on the idea of, well, the first few episodes of Robotech with buildings blowing up all over the place (or VF-1D Battloids crashin through a dozen of them). Honestly Regults should be spending their particle beam shots trying to put damage on Valkyries as their life expectancy is about a turn anyway.

Judgedoug can you point out a post where anyone called you a white knight?

I was commenting above because you both derided warboss for something he did not say while in the very same post defended paladium in a fallacious argument.

But as far as I can recall no one has come right out and called you a white knight.

 judgedoug wrote:

I've ignored it twice because it's not worth responding to?

Um... no. You ignored it because you're too stubborn to admit that the underlying premise of your response (my supposed unfair singling out Palladium to blame) is completely and utterly wrong as proven by the bolded part of the initial post that you somehow completely missed. You've now moved the goalposts to something only vaguely related that developed as a response to your initial "point" as you've finally realized that their original position is and always was impossible to defend. Just make sure to lift with your legs so you don't hurt your back when it requires further movement or backtracking.

 judgedoug wrote:


Yeah, one game with Manchu, got most of the core rules down, and it was "pretty fun".
I've assembled four Valkyries so far, the last two I got done in about 30 minutes.
Regults take about 10 minutes.
I'm sure it's different for others, as I've had experience assembling 1/72 tanks. With machine guns the size of an eyelash and individual track links. I don't think I ever didn't lose a piece when I was assembling those in my early teens so I think my brain has adapted to holding pieces that are being clipped with side cutters as well as a 90% rating in my Spot Tiny Pieces skill check.

If your Regults take only ten minutes, you must be using CYA glue and accelerator combined with some seriously fast clipping. That's pretty impressive. In any case, the basic regult isn't half as difficult as the specialty ones in terms of parts count but I suspect the little barrels will result in more than a few cuss words uttered and parts lost or damaged. When I was looking at the command sprues and the finished models, my first thought was that even with careful storage alot of zentraedi figs will be modelled with battle damage after only a few games as those tiny parts break.

Did you use any city terrain? How big of a board did you guys play on? Was it in person or on a virtual tabletop?

Actually warboss after looking at the mdc values again yeah, they could be increased. I was thinking they started more at the high end.

 judgedoug wrote:
[Haven't used destructible terrain rules yet but a quick glance shows the smaller lighter buildings pretty easy to take out - in your example you'd have to spend CP to do that and still roll to hit (as they have Defense). It also has the caveat that if it's larger than the assumed dimensions, multiple the MDC by the appropriate amount. I'm thinking they are based on the idea of, well, the first few episodes of Robotech with buildings blowing up all over the place (or VF-1D Battloids crashin through a dozen of them). Honestly Regults should be spending their particle beam shots trying to put damage on Valkyries as their life expectancy is about a turn anyway.

Yup, you'd have to spend a CP to knock out the second building with a rapid fire GU-11 but it is odd to me that a GU can take out two buildings in one burst. As for the dimensions, I posted that I plan on using the DZC terrain and most of the buildings (3 out of the 5) are less than 5 cubic inches total in volume by a rough count. One is only 50% larger (so 6mdc) and the other (the tallest) maybe get close to double if you round up. I suspect I'm probably not the only gamer that will use the set (if you haven't seen or heard about the cityscape set, I recommend you check it out as it is great for the cost). Metagame-wise though, if you've got an attrition squad of a dozen or more pods and the RDF squadron you're facing is taking cover behind a building or two, why wouldn't you spend a single model's activation to knock down the cover and remove a penalty for the other 11+ models in the squad?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swabby wrote:
Actually warboss after looking at the mdc values again yeah, they could be increased. I was thinking they started more at the high end.

Yeah, it surprised me that they had so little. 4mdc for a 6 story building (admittedly a civilian one) seemed a bit low as it put it firmly under what pretty much the standard weapons of each mech can do. Put simply, cover tends to benefit the elite smaller model count forces a bit more as they are already hard to kill and the smaller model count makes using the cover effectively easier (no crowding behind it). If I'm a zentraedi player on an urban battlefield, why NOT spend a single full core squadron's worth of activations to completely destroy the half table's worth of cover over on the enemy's side? Granted you still have to hit but a def of 3 isn't hard to meet or beat even for a lowly z-clone.

It seems to me at least that they should roughly be doubled. At 8mdc for an average 5x5x5" building, you'd at least have to devote a power weapon to destroy it in one shot.

I was also under the impression they left a ruin and not area terrain rubble. This to me is reason to not populate a board full of buildings.

 Swabby wrote:
I was also under the impression they left a ruin and not area terrain rubble. This to me is reason to not populate a board full of buildings.

IIRC it said area rubble but I'll have to check tonight to be sure. I don't recall seeing a "ruin" as a terrain type but I definitely could have missed it. When I was reading about the buildings, the wording of area rubble made me refer to the previous page about area terrain. Depending on how you model the rubble, it'll count at least as rough terrain and possibly still generate cover depending on the height. I actually modelled some of my DZC buildings in two different stages of damage anticipating something like that.

Also, I took a quick peek online and it looks like I was quoting the wrong numbers for the buildings. A standard civilian building of 5x5x5" is only 2mdc, not the 4mdc I've been posting. A VF-1J can bring down a multistory building in one shot with its head lasers.

@Warboss, buildings are a Joke, they need to be 4x to 5x stronger IMHO, some say as much as 10. Keep in mind that they typical mini missile does 2 damage and then main guns on a Pod do 4.

Brick and Wooden Construction (DF: 3, 1 MDC)  Typical Residential Buildings.

Steel and Glass Construction (DF: 3, 2 MDC)  Typical Commercial or Office Buildings.

Concrete and Steel Construction (DF: 3, 4 MDC)  Industrial Buildings, Military or Civilian.

Modern Reinforced Construction (DF: 3, 8 MDC)  Civilian Construction in Military Zones.

Military Grade Construction (DF: 4, 12 MDC)  Military Housing, Office Building, and Base Structures.

Fortified Military Construction (DF: 4, 20 MDC)  Fortified Bunkers, Gun Pits, and other fortifications.

Zentraedi Starship Construction (DF: 4, 25 MDC)  Crashed Spacecraft of the Zentraedi Fleet.

UEDF Starship Construction (DF4, 40 MDC)  Crashed Spacecraft of the UEDF.

Even the crashed starships are way on the light side :(

 warboss wrote:
In any case, has anyone tried playing a game since they got the stuff? I brought the rules and a few sprues to see if anyone was interested at my FLGS and I actually saw someone else did the same (or technically brought his whole battlecry pledge). We didn't play a game since between the two of us there was one model assembled at that point though. He did try assembling some of the Zentraedi as they appeared easier to assemble at first. Pretty much universally, the gamers playing various games (40k, x-wing, AQOTMF) were pretty shocked at the number of small pieces. The other guy assembled the command pack models to mixed results. While it was heartening to see in person assembled models for the first time in over a decade (since I last went to gencon and someone had some bootlegs), it also took him roughly 3 hours to assemble 3 pods. While the recovery pod went together pretty easily as it had the fewest parts count, the recon and glaug pods had roughly 3-4 pieces that broke while clipping off the sprue with clippers due to their tiny size and one piece actually flew off into the air never to be found when clipped. If you're assembling the zents, be very careful when you clip off the multitude of tiny antenna type pieces as they're both fragile and hard to find if lost.

My local store (Game Empire Pasadena) had a demo game last Tuesday. I watched, largely because I was hanging out hoping that my friend would show up (he pledged, but he's not a gamer; he didn't show, and later said that he'd had to work late). iirc, the assembled models included four VFs in each of the three modes, two Tomahawks, roughly a dozen Regults, and a Glaug.


As mentioned, my friend isn't a gamer. As of the last time I spoke to him about it (last Wednesday), his box still hadn't arrived. After reading some of the stuff here, I pre-emptively loaned him my clippers. I've got a feeling that they'll be even more useful than they normally are.

(ironically, my copy of Planetfall then arrived a couple of days later, and I found myself wishing I had my clippers on hand ^^;; )

I've already told my friend that I want to get his (non-gamer) impressions of the package, and the work involved in assembling the figures.

 Mike1975 wrote:
@Warboss, buildings are a Joke, they need to be 4x to 5x stronger IMHO, some say as much as 10. Keep in mind that they typical mini missile does 2 damage and then main guns on a Pod do 4.

Brick and Wooden Construction (DF: 3, 1 MDC)  Typical Residential Buildings.

Steel and Glass Construction (DF: 3, 2 MDC)  Typical Commercial or Office Buildings.

Concrete and Steel Construction (DF: 3, 4 MDC)  Industrial Buildings, Military or Civilian.

Modern Reinforced Construction (DF: 3, 8 MDC)  Civilian Construction in Military Zones.

Military Grade Construction (DF: 4, 12 MDC)  Military Housing, Office Building, and Base Structures.

Fortified Military Construction (DF: 4, 20 MDC)  Fortified Bunkers, Gun Pits, and other fortifications.

Zentraedi Starship Construction (DF: 4, 25 MDC)  Crashed Spacecraft of the Zentraedi Fleet.

UEDF Starship Construction (DF4, 40 MDC)  Crashed Spacecraft of the UEDF.

SDC strikes again! I think it is a safe bet to double them as well as somewhat aggressively err on the stronger side when looking at a building to see what type it is. I dont have any issue with an average house/cottage being destroyed by a single missile at 2mdc but I'd look at the situation a bit funny if a battlepod blast didn't at 5x the current 1mdc. The DZC building in their retro styling are all concrete/brick so they fit in ok at 8mdc for each 5" cube with doubling. At 8, theyre immune to one shotting by most standard weapons but the big guns still take them down in one shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eumerin wrote:
[quo

My local store (Game Empire Pasadena) had a demo game last Tuesday. I watched, largely because I was hanging out hoping that my friend would show up (he pledged, but he's not a gamer; he didn't show, and later said that he'd had to work late). iirc, the assembled models included four VFs in each of the three modes, two Tomahawks, roughly a dozen Regults, and a Glaug.

Any thoughts on the gameplay and/or models or thoughts on it from the players?

Any thoughts on the gameplay and/or models or thoughts on it from the players?

I didn't stick around past the first turn or so. Play seemed a bit slow, but I think that had as much to do with the players (being unfamiliar with the rules) as anything else. Also, the store owner (who played) said he found some mistakes that were made when he reread the rules afterwards. I didn't ask him for details.

The game certainly seems workable. Whether it's a good game or not is too early to say. The rules will need to go through a good pounding to see if anything can be broken or badly abused. And something felt a bit off, though I can't put my finger on what that might have been. It's possible I was merely undergoing a flashback to the bad old days playing the Robotech RPG.

A more solid review will need to wait until I get an actual game in myself, with the full gamut of rules. And while I didn't buy into the Kickstarter, my friend will probably contact me for his "learn the rules and playtest" game.


Note that the faction rules weren't being used. The Zentraedi factional rule was interesting. If a Regult dies near a Glaug, then it can be brought back on the table at the start of the next turn. The UEDF faction rule was simple enough. Blow up an enemy unit, and a nearby unit gets a free attack. But the rationale came across rather oddly. It involved cocky pilots trying to one-up each other.

@Warboss, the 4-5x is just to make sure that a Phalanx can't level the table is just a turn or two. With the blast missiles a Phalanx could level a few blocks even at 2-3x damage.

GU fires a ten round burst
100mm size AP rounds

New update:

Hey, guys. Here's the latest.

Container #4 is currently being reviewed by US Customs in Detroit. Our Customs broker spoke with an officer today, and apparently they were concerned about the packaging of the Battle Cry bonus items. As many of you know by now, these are sealed in a clear plastic bag with a simple label denoting its part number, KS9991-A. We sent a letter to Customs explaining that these weren't an item for retail sale and they would never appear in stores, so hopefully that will be cleared up and the container will be released this week.

Container #5 is making good time through the railway system, and arrived in Chicago this morning. We might very well get it by the end of this week, sooner than we expected.

And in even more pleasant news, the shipping line's tracking site reports that Containers #6 and #7 were just put "on-rail" about an hour ago! If the previous two containers are any guide, that means they should depart LA in a couple of days, and arrive in Detroit about 10 days later. We sure hope so.

Container #8 arrived in port yesterday, and Container #9 is at sea. When either one will reach us is a mystery thanks to the current state of affairs at the Port of LA, but they'll get here eventually.

On our end of things, we're currently shipping Showdowns and the tail end of the Battle Cry rewards. The Battle Cry packages going out now are the ones that include a Battle Foam Bag, so they take a bit longer since they sort of need custom packaging. (Those bags are big.) With very few exceptions, all the other domestic Battle Cry packages have shipped.

Things have slowed down a bit since we're running low on the main box as we await the next container, but now that two containers appear to be just a few days away, things will start flying out the door again. I expect a long weekend and upcoming week in the warehouse for us. My chiropractor will be thrilled.

 Jihadin wrote:
GU fires a ten round burst
100mm size AP rounds

It's a triple barrelled 55mm cannon unless they've retconned that since I last looked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mike1975 wrote:
@Warboss, the 4-5x is just to make sure that a Phalanx can't level the table is just a turn or two. With the blast missiles a Phalanx could level a few blocks even at 2-3x damage.

Ah, I'll have to take a look at that one then as blast missiles is one thing I was worried about and mentioned earlier. Perhaps the issue isn't bumping up the building stats by 500% but rather toning down the Phalanx if 200% will cover the vast majority of cases.

Hmmm going off the old RDF manuals lol

I'd say limit damage from regular weapons on buildings to 1 pt per shot. Only apply full damage if the weapon has the blast trait (instead of the blast radius, contained damage and all that).

Yes, a 55mm ap round (or laser shot) will punch through a civilian grade building without much trouble, but it also won't inflict much structural damage to the building. You really need explosives (or fire) to cause serious demolition.

Problem is the basic building is one mdc. So boom even at one point.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone with a showdown actually gotten a shipping notice or their items yet?

 Jihadin wrote:
GU fires a ten round burst
100mm size AP rounds

The gunpod is a Howard GU-11 55mm three-barrel Gatling gun.

EDIT: What they said xD. Serves me well for not finish reading.