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 warboss wrote:
I don't know if this has been covered in the KS comments black hole of reason, Mike's Facebook land of rainbow farts, or Dakka's hive of hater scum and villainy but I decided to do some catching up on Robotech and found this:

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=146679

On Saturady we played again at our local store and drove up some interest in others. Someone bought a Tomahawk / Defender Destoids core box and it contained cards neither of us Battle Cry backers had.
The cards were:
UDEF Brwaler Destroid Squadron
Malcontents Main Battle Squadron
Malcontents Heavy Destroid Squadron
Malcontents Air Defense Squadron
and 2 of the small Malcontents Assault Destroid Squad cards.

Some of it was an error by PB, the Brawler Squadron and Heavy Destroid Squadron can be formed with what is in the main box. That being said the others cannot be so it makes sense to have them in the add-on boxes. Now, PB is aware and at the very least they have agreed to send me something to corroborate what I have on my cards and compare them so that people will be able to print and use them just the same. I believe that they are working on having them in Wave 2 packets as well to make up for it. The concern I have and that I did bring up is that the Supers and Veritechs have upgrades for Long Range Missiles that give them 8 ammo, not 6. Technically the RPG description allows this but it is not cannon and does not match up with the cartoon. I've asked them to clarify and reprint the cards with ammo 6 as appropriate. I had all mine with 6 and don't plan on changing them until I get confirmation from PB. This should all happen Friday or Saturday.

That is disappointing. Apparently the battlecry destroids don't come with options that the supplement boxes do. Forar, if you get a chance since you have most of the add on boxes, can you double check to make sure the other stuff like Artillery Pods and such aren't different as well? I'm fine with this in theory as long as the company is upfront about it before taking any money (see X-wing for how to do this fairly and correctly) but the fact that they've pruned out utility from the freebie versions without any mention of it is yet another shady move on Palladium's part.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is the list I made

Large cards:

UEDF
UEDF Force
Armored Destroid Squadron
Area Denial Destroid Squadron
Valkyrie Squadron
2 Valkyrie Squad
Fire Support Destroid Squad
Close Quarters Destroid Squad
Artillery Destroid Squad
Missing  Brawler Destroid
Wave 2  Ghost, Lancer, Super VT,
Wave 2 Add-Ons Only  Armored Valk, Jotun, YF-4

Mal
Malcontents
2 Air Superiority Squad
2 Ground Attack Squad
Light Raider Squad
Mixed Infantry Squad
Artillery Support Squad
Missing  Air Defense Squadron, Artillery Support Squadron, Heavy Destroid Squadron
Wave 2  Armored Assault Squadron, Assault Recon Squadron, Main Battle Squadron, Super Valkyrie Squadron, Zentraedi Assault Squadron
Wave 2 Add-Ons Only None

Zen
Zentradi Armada
Regult Attack Squadron
Regult Attrition Squadron
Regult Recon Squadron
2 Regult Attack Squad
2 Regult Attrition Squad
2 Regulr Recon Squad
Regult Artillery Squad
Missing  None
Wave 2  Gnerl Attack Squadron, Mousgarma-Ger Squadron, Nousjadeul-Ger Squadron, Queadluun-Gult Squadron, Queadluu-Rau Squadron
Wave 2 Add-Ons Only  Zen Heavy Infantry Squadron, Zen Light Infantry Squadron, Glaug-Eldare Squadron







Regular cards:

UEDF
VF-1A
VF-1J
VF-1S
VF-1R
Tomahawk
Defender
9 UEDF Special characters
2 VF-1A
2 VF-1J
2 VF-1S
2 VF-1R
Phalanx Destroid
Spartan Destroid
Missing  None
Wave 2  Ghost, Lancer, Super VF-1A, Super VF-1D, Super VF-1J, Super VF-1S
Wave 2 Add-Ons Only  Monster, Armored VF-1A, Armored VF-1D, Armored VF-1J, Armored VF-1S, Jotun VF-1A. Jotun VF-1D, Jotun VF-1J, Jotun VF-1S, VEF-1, VF-1D, YF-4, YF-4 Lead

Zen
Glaug
Regult
Regult Recon Scout
Recovery Pod
9 Zentradi Special Characters
2 Regult
Glaug
Regult Recon Scout
Recovery Pod
Heavy Art Pod
Light Art Pod
Particle Art Pod
Missing  None
Wave 2  Gnerl, MPA Upgrade, MPA, FPA Upgrade, FPA
Wave 2 Add-Ons Only  Glaug-Eldare, Gluu-Ger Infantry, Serau-Ger Infantry










Tiny cards:

UEDF
Command Destroid Upgrade
2 Tomahawk Squad
2 Defender Squad
2 Valkyrie Squad
2 VF-1S
2 VF-1R Upgrade
2 Valkyrie Squad
4 VF-1S
4 VF-1R Upgrade
Command Destroid Upgrade
Phalanx Destroid Squad
Spartan Destroid Squad
Missing  VF-1J?
Wave 2  Ghost Squad, Lancer Squad, Super VT Squad, Super VF-1D, Super VF-1J?, Super VF-1S,
Wave 2 Add-Ons Only  Armored VTs, Armored VF-1D, Armored VF-1S, Armored VF-1J?, Monster, Jotun Squad, Jotun VF-1D, Jotun VF-1J?, Jotun VF-1S, VEF-1, VF-1D, YF-4 Squad

Zen
Glaug
2 Regult Squad
Regult Recon Scout
Recovery Pod
Glaug
2 Regult Squad
Regult Recon Scout
2 Heavy Art Pod
2 Light Art Pod
2 Particle Art Pod
Recovery Pod
Missing  VF-1J?
Wave 2  Queadluun-Gult, Queadluun-Rau, Nousgarma-Ger, Nousjadeul-Ger Squad, Gnerl Squad
Wave 2 Add-Ons Only  Zen Heavy Inf Squad, Zen Light Infantry Squad, Zen Officer Upgrade

Mal
Glaug
3 Regult Squad
Regult Recon Scout
2 Suppport Destroid Squad
2 Valkyrie Squad
4 VF-1R Upgrade
Missing  Assault Destroid Squad
Wave 2  Gnerl Squad, Queadluun-Rau, Super Valkyrie,
Wave 2 Add-Ons Only  Armored VT Squad, Command Monster, Zen Heavy Infantry Squad, Infantry Officer Upgrade, Zen Light Infantry Squad

Ninja division also offers the information for games (at least relic knights) online in pdf format, so that is excusable. We dont even have the information for all our units available in any official capacity as it stands in RRT. It should have been in the book OR made available in some other form.

As is you have unit/army combinations available at retail that do not have rules available.

While I appreciate the comprehensive list, I'm honestly not sure how to interpret it all. Which options are ONLY in the add on boxes and not in the core box or the battlecry-based pledges?

Brawler Destroid
2x Spartans 2x Tomahawks

Should have been in wave 1

Reason - Battlecry and above have Spartans. Main Box OTOH does not have Spartans in the retail version so it was left out. It should have been in the grab bag and was not. It is only in both of the Destroid Add-On Boxes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Defense Squadron
2x Defender 2x Light Artillery Pods
Should have been in wave 1

Reason - Battlecry and above have Artillery Pods. Main Box OTOH does not have them in the retail version so it was left out. It should have been in the grab bag and was not. It is only in both of the Tomahawk/Defender and Artillery Pod add-on boxes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artillery Support Squadron
2x Phalanx 2x Light Artillery Pods
Should have been in wave 1

Reason - Battlecry and above have Artillery Pods. Main Box OTOH does not have them in the retail version so it was left out. It should have been in the grab bag and was not. It is only in both of the Spartan/Phalanx and Artillery Pod add-on boxes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heavy Destroid Squadron
2x Tomahawk 2x Spartan 1x Glaug
Should have been in wave 1

Reason - Battlecry and above have Spartans. Main Box OTOH does not have Spartans in the retail version so it was left out. It should have been in the grab bag and was not. It is likely only in both the Spartan/Phalanx and Zen Command Add-On Boxes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Missing  Assault Destroid Squad
1x Tomahawk 1x Spartan

Reason - Battlecry and above have Spartans. Main Box OTOH does not have Spartans in the retail version so it was left out. It should have been in the grab bag and was not. It is likely only in the Spartan/Phalanx Add-On Box.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swabby wrote:
Ninja division also offers the information for games (at least relic knights) online in pdf format, so that is excusable. We dont even have the information for all our units available in any official capacity as it stands in RRT. It should have been in the book OR made available in some other form.

As is you have unit/army combinations available at retail that do not have rules available.

Which does not change the fact that the game is squadron based not individual figure based.

Also the PDF is caused by the morons at HG being so backwards.

Thanks for the update, Mike. I can sort of pool together the Malconent mishmash options together mentally as being add on only but the first one you listed seemed like a no brainer. Eh, that's Palladium for you. They didn't promise us the malconent cards in any case but neither did they happen to mention that not all identical models are equal either and will vary depending on how you get them I'm not going to hold my breath but maybe they'll "fix" that in the wave 2 cards and include them there. In any case, I do hope that someone comes out with a web based site that collates all this stuff and the pics of the cards into an easy to use format like various enterprising individuals have done with X-wing. I just fear that either Palladium or HG will end up sending a cease and desist letter to them for using the "official" cards.

Well, they are fully aware of mine and don't seem to have a problem with me sharing them. The only thing is if HG steps in. If I had a bit more web skills I would make a site where you can click on the faction you want and see squadrons for each faction and select ones and work to build everything in an app. In fact that was the first thing I mentioned in my first call with KS. I might get time this Christmas break to mess with it.

It'd be great if that could be sorted out. Probably go without artwork to avoid stepping on too many toes.

Yes, HG and PB have reputations for C&D letters. I'd also like to point out that Lucasarts, Disney and FFG have reputations for aggressively defending their IP, and yet X-Wing and Netrunner both have force/deck building sites maintained by fans with full card/unit stats, and those tools are immeasurably helpful.

On the other side, you have games like Magic, which is kind of a big thing, and WOTC maintain their own database with card art, text and rules clarifications/FAQ/Errata.

 Forar wrote:
It'd be great if that could be sorted out. Probably go without artwork to avoid stepping on too many toes.

Yes, HG and PB have reputations for C&D letters. I'd also like to point out that Lucasarts, Disney and FFG have reputations for aggressively defending their IP, and yet X-Wing and Netrunner both have force/deck building sites maintained by fans with full card/unit stats, and those tools are immeasurably helpful.

On the other side, you have games like Magic, which is kind of a big thing, and WOTC maintain their own database with card art, text and rules clarifications/FAQ/Errata.

FFG might have been smart enough though to negotiate that in their license ahead of time. They don't seem to do things in a haphazard fashion. That is of course pure speculation. I agree though that the likelyhood would decrease significantly if no art was used. ON the other hand, so would the visual appeal and utility. It's actually very useful that the "print outs" of xwing stuff from various web builders give you the option of printing the exact art of the cards being used and not just a text recap. That is what I was referring to specifically. I'm guessing (again) that Mike's use of mainly really old Macross pre-Robotech art and not just copy/pasting Palladium's new Robotech specific art helps him in keeping his cards available. I suspect it might be different if he decided to just scan in the more recent stuff straight from the rulebook.

 Forar wrote:
It'd be great if that could be sorted out. Probably go without artwork to avoid stepping on too many toes.

Yes, HG and PB have reputations for C&D letters. I'd also like to point out that Lucasarts, Disney and FFG have reputations for aggressively defending their IP, and yet X-Wing and Netrunner both have force/deck building sites maintained by fans with full card/unit stats, and those tools are immeasurably helpful.

On the other side, you have games like Magic, which is kind of a big thing, and WOTC maintain their own database with card art, text and rules clarifications/FAQ/Errata.

Disney does like C&D, but they also understand free advertisement vs. people making money off their IP.

Totally agreed.

I was just trying to cover all my angles before someone got pedantic about how Lawyerific Disney (and other such companies) can be, especially with properties that dwarf Robotech by orders of magnitude.

And note, even if I don't agree with how some companies choose to aggressively assert their IP protection, that is definitely part of my point; such force builder/deck builder sites help drive sales by letting people make informed choices.

If the books not having all the info is considered an intentional part of their business model, hopefully we can all agree that an easily updated site is a perfect melding of up to date info and allowing consumers to make informed choices.

I sure don't want to spend $120 on two squads of YF-4's only to find out that, due to the upgrades I consider valuable (if not necessary) that fielding more than 1 squad in a 300 point list is either impossible or not effective. Some of that will come from experience, but at least being able to eyeball a bunch of it is worthwhile.

Having to buy a box or hunt for card info online through questionable (in terms of legality and/or accuracy) isn't a Feature in my eyes, it's a Bug.

I find my main concern is that every bloody model in the box or pile of sprues takes about a half hour each if you clean them of sprue connection points properly.
Matching parts of feet to the right leg is still being a bit of a pain.
Just cannot wait to play the game with the actual models.
My negativity is on hold because I have nothing new to add that has not been already said.
Cards going into expansion boxes we do not have, may set me off again though...

 Mike1975 wrote:

 MangoMadness wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

You also see a lot of painted minis, people who have actually painted minis and played the game

So whats the consensus?

Great rules, nicely balanced gameplay with fantastic easy to assemble and paint models?

Not at all, just because people are happy does not mean that they are unrealistic. There have been a couple threads and reviews. People have been helping each other out with things like the screwed up arms for the Veritech in guardian mode and also on how to paint the minis.

Here is one review and them something I added

Wow

Honestly, do you think that is a balanced review?

Seriously, read it and look at the political tiptoe of arse kissing and apologist rhetoric with soft worded concerns (I wouldnt call them criticism they are so softly worded)

This is something I would expect from the United Nations once their rhetoric has been passed by all the veto countries and everyone else so that what they say is barely a critique toward the intended recipient.

. I cannot think of any games, programs, projects, operation, and/or business starting off perfectly
Just one has to
"Embrace the Suck"

Edit

Sentence structure

 Jihadin wrote:
. I cannot think of any games, programs, projects, operation, and/or business starting off perfectly
Just one has to
"Embrace the Suck"

Thats a loaded statement

Name a game, program, project, operation, and/or business that runs perfectly

 Mike1975 wrote:
Also the PDF is caused by the morons at HG being so backwards.

Mike, I know you have a personal relationship with Kevin, and I know you put stock in his word. But as someone who has never spoken to the man, having only public statements to go by, I'm sorry, I just can't accept that as indisputable fact.

Given PB's tendency to deflect blame from themselves, their general dislike of PDF's and other publishing modernizations, and the general untrustworthiness of statements Palladium have made, it would not surprise me in the least to find out that Palladium didn't want to go to the effort of doing so, and hid behind a "It's a licensing thing" as an excuse.

Obviously, you believe what you wrote. I don't and won't buy it, without further corroboration from Harmony Gold, or an independent source with first hand knowledge of the situation. You don't need to defend your position (acceptance of credibility is a personal thing), and I don't even necessarily think you're wrong. But I don't think it's impossible, let alone improbable that it is Palladium being Palladium.

It may very well be a convenient fact that licensing prohibits it. It is also likely that, given their prior reticence to allow anything that they plan on reprinting ever, as a licensee that was something they agreed with completely. Both can be true. With that, I now need to wash myself with some industrial detergent because I just argued in a round about way that palladium might have told the truth. I feel so dirty...

 warboss wrote:
It may very well be a convenient fact that licensing prohibits it. It is also likely that, given their prior reticence to allow anything that they plan on reprinting ever, as a licensee that was something they agreed with completely. Both can be true. With that, I now need to wash myself with some industrial detergent because I just argued in a round about way that palladium might have told the truth. I feel so dirty...

To be clear, I wasn't saying it's not Harmony Gold's fault in it's entirety. All I was trying to say was that it's possible to be otherwise, given the situations I listed, that it is not in fact, the truth (that HG are responsible).

Your points actually make a lot of sense, and muddy the waters further, that it's not necessarily a binary option and it's possibly a mutually agreed upon thing, behind the scenes. Though PB have implied that it's not their fault. But then again, what is?

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a lot of faith in Harmony Gold either. At best, they should be holding PB accountable for actions done with their brand name, but they've shown a perfect fit for Palladium in regards many aspects of business. But I don't want to see something as an accepted truth, when there's plenty of circumstantial information to at least potentially show otherwise, and a general lack of credibility from the only source of that information.

If I had to wager on the truth of the situation, I'd probably bet on PB's claim being true. But I definitely wouldn't bet the house on it.

I ended up eBaying mine. I just couldn't see myself investing the assembly time, plus painting time anytime in the near future. I'll buy a sprue here and there for nostalgia's sake, but there's so much ahead of RRT in the painting queue that there's no point in leaving it in the closet just to gather dust.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
Also the PDF is caused by the morons at HG being so backwards.

Mike, I know you have a personal relationship with Kevin, and I know you put stock in his word. But as someone who has never spoken to the man, having only public statements to go by, I'm sorry, I just can't accept that as indisputable fact.

Given PB's tendency to deflect blame from themselves, their general dislike of PDF's and other publishing modernizations, and the general untrustworthiness of statements Palladium have made, it would not surprise me in the least to find out that Palladium didn't want to go to the effort of doing so, and hid behind a "It's a licensing thing" as an excuse.

Obviously, you believe what you wrote. I don't and won't buy it, without further corroboration from Harmony Gold, or an independent source with first hand knowledge of the situation. You don't need to defend your position (acceptance of credibility is a personal thing), and I don't even necessarily think you're wrong. But I don't think it's impossible, let alone improbable that it is Palladium being Palladium.

I've spoken to KS personally twice, maybe 3 times, and all but one of those conversations were really short. Now I have spoke to Wayne and Jeff. The argument on PDF files have never changed from anyone related to this project that I have spoken to emailed. So do I think KS is lied? NO, I never asked him aobut the PDF file. I asked Jeff. If it was all a great lie then everyone must be having some massive conspiracy. So while it is possible, I think it unlikely. I've spoke to 3 PB people, 2 MA's and a few playtesters close to PB and the story is consistent. So why should I think it's a massive lie/conspiracy?

 Mike1975 wrote:
I've spoken to KS personally twice, maybe 3 times, and all but one of those conversations were really short. Now I have spoke to Wayne and Jeff. The argument on PDF files have never changed from anyone related to this project that I have spoken to emailed. So do I think KS is lied? NO, I never asked him aobut the PDF file. I asked Jeff. If it was all a great lie then everyone must be having some massive conspiracy. So while it is possible, I think it unlikely. I've spoke to 3 PB people, 2 MA's and a few playtesters close to PB and the story is consistent. So why should I think it's a massive lie/conspiracy?

Mike, take a breath. Then reread what I wrote. Then take another breath. Because I'm NOT saying what you seem to be implying I am.

First off, I explicitly stated that you, having a more private relationship with staff at Palladium Books, were more likely to believe what you were told. And that's understandable. But you mention that you've got the same story from 3 PB employees, 2 MA's, and a few playtesters. But have you seen or heard any response from someone from Harmony Gold saying "Yup, we don't want PDF's for <insert reason>". Just because one side states a position, and the other is silent, does not mean the silent party is considered to be consenting or acquiescing.

Second, I'm NOT saying there's a vast conspiracy. Geez, where did that come from? It could be one member of PB who is stating something that may be false, or just misconstrued, about the actual truth of the situation. And if you don't think it's happened several times already during the campaign, I'm sure I, or others, can provide you with examples. If you're referring to the issue Warboss brought up, again, it doesn't have to be a "conspiracy". HG are ambivalent about PDF's, PB doesn't want to do PDF's anyway, PB says it's because of HG. Just because neither MAY have wanted it, doesn't make it a conspiracy.

Third, you admit that it's possible, though unlikely. And that was MY WHOLE POINT. I even said I thought it was likely true. But you stated it as fact. When it's only an allegation by one party (Palladium) that it is another party's fault. I said it's probable, but not factual. You apparently agree. Why are you getting mad? Consider my post pedantry nitpicking, and not an attempt to unseat a global conspiracy.

Finally, maybe I should have been clearer, but I don't doubt your belief in what was told, and I don't want or expect you to change your mind. All I was doing was pointing out we've only heard one side, and given their past, don't think it should be taken as absolute truth.

Look, I know you have an emotional attachment to the game, and I know you don't like the constant criticisms, and I know there are some people that spout outlandish negative claims against Palladium. You don't need to go half-cocked with me. Wait until I actually say what you think I'm saying. Then go off full-cocked.

Wait..... what?

EDIT: The one part where I did err in that post was the "relationship with Kevin", when it should have been the "relationship with Palladium staff". I conflated the two, and for that I apologize.

If Kevin says something, which one of the pb staff would dare contradict him. If Kevin says he can't release the PDF cause of hg; regardless of whether it's true or not, do you think any of the pb staff will say otherwise?

Sining wrote:
If Kevin says something, which one of the pb staff would dare contradict him. If Kevin says he can't release the PDF cause of hg; regardless of whether it's true or not, do you think any of the pb staff will say otherwise?

I vote no, until they get fedup and leave PB and then they do a tell all somewhere.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
I've spoken to KS personally twice, maybe 3 times, and all but one of those conversations were really short. Now I have spoke to Wayne and Jeff. The argument on PDF files have never changed from anyone related to this project that I have spoken to emailed. So do I think KS is lied? NO, I never asked him aobut the PDF file. I asked Jeff. If it was all a great lie then everyone must be having some massive conspiracy. So while it is possible, I think it unlikely. I've spoke to 3 PB people, 2 MA's and a few playtesters close to PB and the story is consistent. So why should I think it's a massive lie/conspiracy?

Mike, take a breath. Then reread what I wrote. Then take another breath. Because I'm NOT saying what you seem to be implying I am.

First off, I explicitly stated that you, having a more private relationship with staff at Palladium Books, were more likely to believe what you were told. And that's understandable. But you mention that you've got the same story from 3 PB employees, 2 MA's, and a few playtesters. But have you seen or heard any response from someone from Harmony Gold saying "Yup, we don't want PDF's for <insert reason>". Just because one side states a position, and the other is silent, does not mean the silent party is considered to be consenting or acquiescing.

Second, I'm NOT saying there's a vast conspiracy. Geez, where did that come from? It could be one member of PB who is stating something that may be false, or just misconstrued, about the actual truth of the situation. And if you don't think it's happened several times already during the campaign, I'm sure I, or others, can provide you with examples. If you're referring to the issue Warboss brought up, again, it doesn't have to be a "conspiracy". HG are ambivalent about PDF's, PB doesn't want to do PDF's anyway, PB says it's because of HG. Just because neither MAY have wanted it, doesn't make it a conspiracy.

Third, you admit that it's possible, though unlikely. And that was MY WHOLE POINT. I even said I thought it was likely true. But you stated it as fact. When it's only an allegation by one party (Palladium) that it is another party's fault. I said it's probable, but not factual. You apparently agree. Why are you getting mad? Consider my post pedantry nitpicking, and not an attempt to unseat a global conspiracy.

Finally, maybe I should have been clearer, but I don't doubt your belief in what was told, and I don't want or expect you to change your mind. All I was doing was pointing out we've only heard one side, and given their past, don't think it should be taken as absolute truth.

Look, I know you have an emotional attachment to the game, and I know you don't like the constant criticisms, and I know there are some people that spout outlandish negative claims against Palladium. You don't need to go half-cocked with me. Wait until I actually say what you think I'm saying. Then go off full-cocked.

Wait..... what?

EDIT: The one part where I did err in that post was the "relationship with Kevin", when it should have been the "relationship with Palladium staff". I conflated the two, and for that I apologize.

lol, I did not take it personally or anything or get upset , you know how things can come off over the internet. I was just saying that my relationship with KS is not really much if anything. I spoke to him the first time for about 45 minutes and I remember one other time when I was talking to Jeff and he got on and thanked me. Point is that Jeff, Wayne, MA's, Playtesters all tell the same story. Now I was told at first that it was just the images that held them back from releasing the rules, likely to not appear to be throwing HG under the proverbial bus, so I rewrote everything word for word to prove that false. There is a point where if everyone says the same thing time and again from various sides you tend to believe it. So either its a massive campaign to misinform others and themselves or in all truth HG is the one holding all the PDF's back.

When I proposed demo rules, where did they need to go? When I've asked about PDF rules and cards for everyone, where did they tell me they need to go to? So it's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of everyone saying the same thing and it being the truth or everyone lying to themselves.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
I've spoken to KS personally twice, maybe 3 times, and all but one of those conversations were really short. Now I have spoke to Wayne and Jeff. The argument on PDF files have never changed from anyone related to this project that I have spoken to emailed. So do I think KS is lied? NO, I never asked him aobut the PDF file. I asked Jeff. If it was all a great lie then everyone must be having some massive conspiracy. So while it is possible, I think it unlikely. I've spoke to 3 PB people, 2 MA's and a few playtesters close to PB and the story is consistent. So why should I think it's a massive lie/conspiracy?

Mike, take a breath. Then reread what I wrote. Then take another breath. Because I'm NOT saying what you seem to be implying I am.

First off, I explicitly stated that you, having a more private relationship with staff at Palladium Books, were more likely to believe what you were told. And that's understandable. But you mention that you've got the same story from 3 PB employees, 2 MA's, and a few playtesters. But have you seen or heard any response from someone from Harmony Gold saying "Yup, we don't want PDF's for <insert reason>". Just because one side states a position, and the other is silent, does not mean the silent party is considered to be consenting or acquiescing.

Second, I'm NOT saying there's a vast conspiracy. Geez, where did that come from? It could be one member of PB who is stating something that may be false, or just misconstrued, about the actual truth of the situation. And if you don't think it's happened several times already during the campaign, I'm sure I, or others, can provide you with examples. If you're referring to the issue Warboss brought up, again, it doesn't have to be a "conspiracy". HG are ambivalent about PDF's, PB doesn't want to do PDF's anyway, PB says it's because of HG. Just because neither MAY have wanted it, doesn't make it a conspiracy.

Third, you admit that it's possible, though unlikely. And that was MY WHOLE POINT. I even said I thought it was likely true. But you stated it as fact. When it's only an allegation by one party (Palladium) that it is another party's fault. I said it's probable, but not factual. You apparently agree. Why are you getting mad? Consider my post pedantry nitpicking, and not an attempt to unseat a global conspiracy.

Finally, maybe I should have been clearer, but I don't doubt your belief in what was told, and I don't want or expect you to change your mind. All I was doing was pointing out we've only heard one side, and given their past, don't think it should be taken as absolute truth.

Look, I know you have an emotional attachment to the game, and I know you don't like the constant criticisms, and I know there are some people that spout outlandish negative claims against Palladium. You don't need to go half-cocked with me. Wait until I actually say what you think I'm saying. Then go off full-cocked.

Wait..... what?

EDIT: The one part where I did err in that post was the "relationship with Kevin", when it should have been the "relationship with Palladium staff". I conflated the two, and for that I apologize.

lol, I did not take it personally or anything or get upset , you know how things can come off over the internet. I was just saying that my relationship with KS is not really much if anything. I spoke to him the first time for about 45 minutes and I remember one other time when I was talking to Jeff and he got on and thanked me. Point is that Jeff, Wayne, MA's, Playtesters all tell the same story. Now I was told at first that it was just the images that held them back from releasing the rules, likely to not appear to be throwing HG under the proverbial bus, so I rewrote everything word for word to prove that false. There is a point where if everyone says the same thing time and again from various sides you tend to believe it. So either its a massive campaign to misinform others and themselves or in all truth HG is the one holding all the PDF's back.

When I proposed demo rules, where did they need to go? When I've asked about PDF rules and cards for everyone, where did they tell me they need to go to? So it's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of everyone saying the same thing and it being the truth or everyone lying to themselves.

Well another thing to consider is Pb doesn't have a history of doing a lot of their books in PDF format.

 Mike1975 wrote:
lol, I did not take it personally or anything or get upset , you know how things can come off over the internet. I was just saying that my relationship with KS is not really much if anything. I spoke to him the first time for about 45 minutes and I remember one other time when I was talking to Jeff and he got on and thanked me. Point is that Jeff, Wayne, MA's, Playtesters all tell the same story. Now I was told at first that it was just the images that held them back from releasing the rules, likely to not appear to be throwing HG under the proverbial bus, so I rewrote everything word for word to prove that false. There is a point where if everyone says the same thing time and again from various sides you tend to believe it. So either its a massive campaign to misinform others and themselves or in all truth HG is the one holding all the PDF's back.

When I proposed demo rules, where did they need to go? When I've asked about PDF rules and cards for everyone, where did they tell me they need to go to? So it's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of everyone saying the same thing and it being the truth or everyone lying to themselves.

Or, one lead person made the decision or had the misinterpretation when dealing with Harmony Gold, and noone else has bothered to re-check. It definitely wouldn't be the first time in any company's history where a person has stated something, and then everyone in the company has just gone "OK, fair enough". Heck, I think going around that lead person to double check, unless there was a reason for lack of trust in that lead person, would be hugely detrimental, and a waste of resources.

You state "time and again from various sides". What side have we heard, other than Palladium's?

You also mentioned the MA's and the playtesters as apparently being 'complicit' in the hypothetical conspiracy. How many of these do you think have had direct contact with Harmony Gold's legal or operational staff, and have questioned them specifically about their PDF policy? Or is it more likely they have just been told by Kevin, Wayne or Jeff "that's how it is", similar to what you were told. Heck, I'd find it strange if all three of those asked the same question.

Again, I'm not claiming intentional malfeasance. Hell, I'm not even claiming HG aren't likely the "bad guys". Again, repeating and summarizing my previous statements, WE DON'T KNOW. And to claim that what we've been told through second hand and/or questionable sources is THE TRUTH, is wrong. And until a representative from Harmony Gold or an independent source states "Yup, that's the way it went down", is, and will remain, unclear in the best of circumstances. So then it becomes a credibility issue. And that's where our opinions (and that's all they are) differ.

Sining wrote:
If Kevin says something, which one of the pb staff would dare contradict him. If Kevin says he can't release the PDF cause of hg; regardless of whether it's true or not, do you think any of the pb staff will say otherwise?

One does not simply tell the emperor that he has no clothes. It is nothing but gusts of sunny weather up his naked backside at Palladium all year long.

As a test you should ask all the pb staff did Kevin say he'll ship yo backers first or did he say he'll ship to international backers before international retailers first. Then you'll know how trust worthy any palladium word is

He's an apologist. Best not to waste time on her/him. I have legitimate concerns and for not drinking the kool-aid I and many other disenfranchised backers are labeled haters. It's this kind of small minded thinking that plagues PB and does more harm than good.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
He's an apologist. Best not to waste time on her/him. I have legitimate concerns and for not drinking the kool-aid I and many other disenfranchised backers are labeled haters. It's this kind of small minded thinking that plagues PB and does more harm than good.

Mike has decided to martyr himself by being a PB perspective voice.
Some credit is due to him no matter how much it appears a "devil's advocate" stance to take with us more grumpy folk.

PB has a pretty well documented history of consistent behavior so I would not expect Tactics to be treated any different than their other publications.
I must admit that was an evil bait-and-switch with Ninja Division, I honestly thought we might see something handled in a more modernized (organized?) way.

The "Kool-Aid" drinkers like their product and have accepted (resigned?) PB behavior as part of the package.
Us "haters" are just customers more used to other industry standards of service, we are rather spoiled in comparison to what is offered here.

So if you want something changed, figure out how it will make PB more money, get the ear of someone who can talk to Kevin and then you may have a hope of it happening.

Aside from that, grit your teeth and wait for the last of your stuff to get to you and complain loudly at every point it looks like you may not get what was agreed or a further charge is attempted.

So, is this also the forum for the "painfully slow model assembly support group"?
The scout pod: dear lord! so... many... tiny... fiddly... BREAKABLE... bits!!!!!
This is the second time in my model experiences where I cut further away in the sprue form before I do the actual final cut.
Even my tiny shim-stock-like rotary blades still apply too much force to the part.
Maybe form a cast (splint?) around the part up to the sprue join to support it from flexing during cuts?
If I had a laser where no physical pressure is used to cut it would then work-out ok.

Until next time...

It is a bit disappointing that there are cards in the retail release of the sets that are not in the Battle Cry Kick Starter Backers.

It's more disappointing that we can't get a full list of all those cards. If it's a licensing thing with Harmony Gold- this bodes ill for the rest of the game. If every time Palladium Books wants to show something, make a new model, or write something new for Robotech RPG Tactics and it has to go throw Harmony Gold for approval, it could be YEARS before we see anything else for Macros, much less Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, or The Sentinels.

I tend to think, given the history of Palladium Books, that it's a case of them just not wanting to take the time to make such a list, and produce it in some form for the players/consumers. When has PB ever made anything in a PDF format and gave it away for free? Never. Heck, I bet only 1-2 people at PB even KNOW the entire contents of the sets. Probably the guys at Ninja Division do, but as PB and ND split in a very unfriendly sort of way, I doubt you'd be able to get such a list from them.

A far more likely scenario would be in about six months, a comprehensive list of cards is produced and placed in a new periodical product similar to The Rifter by PB. Something like the old Protoculture Addicts magazine.