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 Mike1975 wrote:


Well it was one of the reasons I sought to help PB in the first place. To be able to positively influence the output. As with any small company, and this is not the first time I playtested, they listen to those closest to them because they can't afford to have someone just sitting around with his eyes on the screen. It was exactly the same when I playtested with Agents of Gaming. While I understand your sentiment I also think its not realistic. PB is a small operation and does not have people who just sit around and gather thoughts and pass them on. I pass on what I can when something like problems with the rules or serious questions arise. I get what answers I can and bring them back. PB just does not have the manpower or will to watch every little comment. So you have a right to feel upset, you may even consider me a crony. I just try to help with what I can. With the present way things are and the situation you may ask for more but are unlikely to get it TBH.

They have the manpower to watch and respond to their own forum. It is straight up cronyism. Your name is the first one in the book under playtesters. The rules are a shambles because they picked friends to sort them out rather than dedicated wargamers who knew what to look for. The same crap (only worse imo) is happening again with the tournament rules.

You guys have helped get some things addressed but blocked others, some of which were extremely valid quality control issues that were spotted early on.

It is a total failure for PB to allow one person outside of the company to essentially be an ambassador and focal point for quasi official rules information. Totally appreciate that stuff is available as a resource but once we started getting visits from palladium staff and HG themselves on your page, and even off the cuff rules clarifications the cronyism was evident.

While there's nothing wrong with hiring or using people you know, it really depends if they're the best possible person for the job. Same thing with how there's nothing wrong with visits from PB staff or HG on the page, as long as things on the group aren't being changed to suit their needs (such as blocking complaints against either PB or HG)

Mike himself brought up 'the LRM fix' as something that got addressed.

It was mentioned on the PB forums, but hasn't been 'confirmed' by a Palladium source anywhere but on his closed group.

So is it really fixed? If the official answer is locked behind two doors (need to be a part of face book, need to be a part of Mike's group), has it really been answered?

I imagine that the vast majority of players around the world are unaware that it's even in contention. VT's get 8 LRMs, and delving for a comment by Wayne from a month or two ago is more of a barrier to entry than I imagine most are going to be interested in undertaking.

Long story short, even the 'things that got fixed/changed' has asterisks on it, and PB would do well to stop talking about making a FAQ/Errata page, and just fething do it.

They've wasted more time and effort talking about it than it'd take to just throw down the small handful of answers they have and start building from there.

 Swabby wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:


Well it was one of the reasons I sought to help PB in the first place. To be able to positively influence the output. As with any small company, and this is not the first time I playtested, they listen to those closest to them because they can't afford to have someone just sitting around with his eyes on the screen. It was exactly the same when I playtested with Agents of Gaming. While I understand your sentiment I also think its not realistic. PB is a small operation and does not have people who just sit around and gather thoughts and pass them on. I pass on what I can when something like problems with the rules or serious questions arise. I get what answers I can and bring them back. PB just does not have the manpower or will to watch every little comment. So you have a right to feel upset, you may even consider me a crony. I just try to help with what I can. With the present way things are and the situation you may ask for more but are unlikely to get it TBH.

They have the manpower to watch and respond to their own forum. It is straight up cronyism. Your name is the first one in the book under playtesters. The rules are a shambles because they picked friends to sort them out rather than dedicated wargamers who knew what to look for. The same crap (only worse imo) is happening again with the tournament rules.

You guys have helped get some things addressed but blocked others, some of which were extremely valid quality control issues that were spotted early on.

It is a total failure for PB to allow one person outside of the company to essentially be an ambassador and focal point for quasi official rules information. Totally appreciate that stuff is available as a resource but once we started getting visits from palladium staff and HG themselves on your page, and even off the cuff rules clarifications the cronyism was evident.

1. PB did not have the rules and could not change anything for a long time until a few weeks before printing. The changes that they made were not huge. Not as big as they could have been. HG prevented the open sharing of the rules and hence the general public could not help. Sad but that is the way it was.
2. My name is at the top because they are in Alphabetic order. Notice the last names? Also they had almost left me out. I jokingly pointed it out and they made the change before sending to print. I was happy they included it but honestly would not have been put out if I had not been added.
3. I had nothing to do with the minis and purposely avoided much of the stuff surrounding them. I'm not a minis or manufacturing expert.
4. I only recently have had a few PB visits to my page and I think Wayne has clarified..what...2 rules? Most likely NMI pointed at him to come over in those instances. I've had to tell NMI to tone down the defensiveness a few times. That is noticeable in how he treats people on the Palladium FB page vs mine. Go check it out for yourself.
5. If you see the few official posts at cronyism that is your deal. The page is probably and honestly sadly the best way for PB to reach out to players. They should have their own page just for RRT and forums but the forums are unfortunately a place of vile attacks and vicious defense of PB where banning happens as often as washing your hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:
Mike himself brought up 'the LRM fix' as something that got addressed.

It was mentioned on the PB forums, but hasn't been 'confirmed' by a Palladium source anywhere but on his closed group.

So is it really fixed? If the official answer is locked behind two doors (need to be a part of face book, need to be a part of Mike's group), has it really been answered?

I imagine that the vast majority of players around the world are unaware that it's even in contention. VT's get 8 LRMs, and delving for a comment by Wayne from a month or two ago is more of a barrier to entry than I imagine most are going to be interested in undertaking.

Long story short, even the 'things that got fixed/changed' has asterisks on it, and PB would do well to stop talking about making a FAQ/Errata page, and just fething do it.

They've wasted more time and effort talking about it than it'd take to just throw down the small handful of answers they have and start building from there.

It's to be included in the errata which has not been made open to everyone yet. I hope they put it in a highly visible place where all players, those on or off of my site will see it. They need something visible and tangible for the fans to see that the game will receive support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agreed on the they need to get their tails in gear part. Shoot, I'd hate to imagine where they would be if we had not started an errata at all......

Brian Ledbetter on the FB page suggested a Tomahawk/Phalanx Squadron....so here it is.

 Swabby wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Spoiler:

Well it was one of the reasons I sought to help PB in the first place. To be able to positively influence the output. As with any small company, and this is not the first time I playtested, they listen to those closest to them because they can't afford to have someone just sitting around with his eyes on the screen. It was exactly the same when I playtested with Agents of Gaming. While I understand your sentiment I also think its not realistic. PB is a small operation and does not have people who just sit around and gather thoughts and pass them on. I pass on what I can when something like problems with the rules or serious questions arise. I get what answers I can and bring them back. PB just does not have the manpower or will to watch every little comment. So you have a right to feel upset, you may even consider me a crony. I just try to help with what I can. With the present way things are and the situation you may ask for more but are unlikely to get it TBH.

They have the manpower to watch and respond to their own forum. It is straight up cronyism.

"It either happens through "his people" or not at all."

This is really my beef. The only other business I have to go through a guy who knows a guy these days is buying direct from China.

The tournment rules people are all names you would recognize as the inner circle, or people that are on Mikes page mod list. And no offense intended, given the crap I have seen said over the years (almost 2 at this point) in regards to attitudes towards tournment players by these people I do not see a healthy organized play scene ever.

Well, when KS called me and PB gave me the thumbs up to playtest and share in December 2013 they did send me a Max, a Miriya mini, and one of each of the books for the RPG. Plus a copier copy of the rules as they were at the time. That is all I've gotten so far other than a thanks and a thumbs up.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Well, when KS called me and PB gave me the thumbs up to playtest and share in December 2013 they did send me a Max, a Miriya mini, and one of each of the books for the RPG. Plus a copier copy of the rules as they were at the time. That is all I've gotten so far other than a thanks and a thumbs up.

I figured as much.
It is better than a kick in the pants, at least they thought to throw a couple things your way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swabby wrote:
"It either happens through "his people" or not at all."
This is really my beef. The only other business I have to go through a guy who knows a guy these days is buying direct from China.
The tournment rules people are all names you would recognize as the inner circle, or people that are on Mikes page mod list. And no offense intended, given the crap I have seen said over the years (almost 2 at this point) in regards to attitudes towards tournment players by these people I do not see a healthy organized play scene ever.

They think small time, in their immediate area, the larger world is a new thing to them.
They seemed a bit overwhelmed at Anime North when I saw them.
This is pretty much how anything is done, I do not normally hear of some "guy" having an "in" with Fantasy Fight Games, Games Workshop or Privateer Press.
There is also a bit of trepidation of taking ideas from people and using them... people get strange ideas of compensation or them being "stolen" from them.
That is why those who are made to sign non-disclosure agreements then become part of the inner circle: this is how business works.

 Forar wrote:
So is it really fixed? If the official answer is locked behind two doors (need to be a part of face book, need to be a part of Mike's group), has it really been answered?
I imagine that the vast majority of players around the world are unaware that it's even in contention.
They've wasted more time and effort talking about it than it'd take to just throw down the small handful of answers they have and start building from there.

 Swabby wrote:
Totally appreciate that stuff is available as a resource but once we started getting visits from palladium staff and HG themselves on your page, and even off the cuff rules clarifications the cronyism was evident.

 Talizvar wrote:
PB staff may also find their forum moderating too restrictive as well.
Facebook has strong mainstream appeal rather than some backwater forum on the net, that is so 90's.

While I would agree FB seems somewhat more mainstream, G+ or maybe reddit would probably have worked just as well if not better, maybe along with some kind of twitter option for those with smartphones.
But I think the issue is more that there is yet another locale that already busy folks must register with and log in to, when folks already don't seem to care for FB, just to see if there was an "official" or at least quasi-official answer to something not posted to the PB forums.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
It is a total failure for PB to allow one person outside of the company to essentially be an ambassador and focal point for quasi official rules information.

An alternative is being offered until such time something official decides to come along... eventually... if it is important... if the days do not slip away...

IMHO that time has come and gone really, the damage is done and the impressions left won't be easily forgotten.

_
_

Bit of a rant ahead. Please skip it if you want something useful about RRT.

Sometimes I read comment pages/threads on games where players say things like... "Company X should do Z, and Company Y must have know this would happen, and Why can't Comapny A get this done in B time" and I wonder.

How many people here have actually been inside of a corporation (small, medium, or large) before and tried to actually get something done? I mean simple things that everyone agrees on still take months to get to implementation. Imagine what happens when not everyone agrees on the solution or doesn't think it is a problem.

I know from personal experience, I have spent years just getting people to agree that there is a problem that needs to be resolved in the first place much less how to solve it. Corporations/Companies are slow to react to anything.

Now, I'm sure everyone will point to the few, rare examples of a nimble corporation and prove me wrong.

/rant

 Easy E wrote:
Bit of a rant ahead. Please skip it if you want something useful about RRT.

Sometimes I read comment pages/threads on games where players say things like... "Company X should do Z, and Company Y must have know this would happen, and Why can't Comapny A get this done in B time" and I wonder.

How many people here have actually been inside of a corporation (small, medium, or large) before and tried to actually get something done? I mean simple things that everyone agrees on still take months to get to implementation. Imagine what happens when not everyone agrees on the solution or doesn't think it is a problem.

I know from personal experience, I have spent years just getting people to agree that there is a problem that needs to be resolved in the first place much less how to solve it. Corporations/Companies are slow to react to anything.

Now, I'm sure everyone will point to the few, rare examples of a nimble corporation and prove me wrong.

/rant

What? How dare you infer that companies have internal processes and standards to follow! I work for a big company and feel that annoying why do things take so long feeling daily.

 Easy E wrote:
How many people here have actually been inside of a corporation (small, medium, or large) before and tried to actually get something done? I mean simple things that everyone agrees on still take months to get to implementation. Imagine what happens when not everyone agrees on the solution or doesn't think it is a problem.

This kind of thing isn't that hard at all.

If you're the boss.

Otherwise, no way. Heck, changing things from how we've always done them, to some different way? I'd have an easier time getting my wife to do something.

Okay, big organization my foot, I would hazard a guess of 5 including Kevin.

Anyone wondering why those are in the positions they are and are not removed or disciplined or any other inane suggestions:
They are a small privately owned organization that specializes in paying others to make their product.

Corporate profile page shows some 11 employees. http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=516&Itemid=182
Some of the people pictured I am pretty sure are listed under "freelance".

Names derived from here: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=211&Itemid=206#Kathy

Kevin - high king
Alex Marciniszyn - Editor, idea guy.
Julius Rosenstein - Proofreader, shipper-receiver, game master.
Kathy Simmons - Order Processing and Book-keeper.
Wayne Smith - Editor, special projects.

5 permanent employees anyone?

Writers: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=212&Itemid=197
All also listed as "freelance".
Artists: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=209&Itemid=196
Pretty sure every last one of these people are freelance.

I'm in a corporation that's probably larger than Palladium and is still considered a SMC. Ironically, we probably have less paperwork than Palladium and can do things faster.

Sining wrote:
I'm in a corporation that's probably larger than Palladium and is still considered a SMC. Ironically, we probably have less paperwork than Palladium and can do things faster.

Well, you are in Hong Kong, so one imagines you're used to working smarter and faster.

But then I look at the delays Marrow has had with Journey : Wrath of Demons, and wonder... Still, I think they'll get their first wave out with less delay than Palladium, and hopefully, they'll finish the whole thing first!

what it comes down to is when you take PB and compare it to another RPG company that started around the same time say like SJG makes one wonder why SJG did so much better then PB did? maybe its because of the owner?

What do you mean, "SJG did so much better"?

Ogre Deluxe had horrible communication. Wave 1 was a year late. No action on many of the Stretch Goals, despite it being years later. SJG still owes us 30 minutes of music and a bunch of scenarios (that Steve totally fething lied about working on during the KS). Not to mention the Car Wars Kickstarter, the 2nd edition Ogre Miniatures rulebook (print and PDF), the Ogre computer game (in any form), and the Ogre expansion (again, anything will do). SJG has basically done nothing, and most backers have given up on SJG ever following through on the promises SJG made.

If Palladium actually finishes the remaining items within the next 15 months, they will have outdone SJG by a wide margin. Not only will Palladium have delivered a larger project within a shorter timeframe, but they will have done so against 2 layers of approval slowing things down (HG and Bandai).

Based on their demonstrated incompetence and failure to even attempt progress, I will never back another SJG project.

Bandai? Wtf? Is that just more of your garbage or is Bandai seriously a part of the approval chain?

SJG has munchkin. Palladium has nothing that even compares to that.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
What do you mean, "SJG did so much better"?

I think he means "as a company".

Oh, OK. I thought he was trying to compare how PB and SJG ran their KSs.

If the focus is corporate financial health, yes, SJG is clearly doing better, due to Munchkin being popular and paying the bills.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Oh, OK. I thought he was trying to compare how PB and SJG ran their KSs.

If the focus is corporate financial health, yes, SJG is clearly doing better, due to Munchkin being popular and paying the bills.

well I am going by the company as a whole.

 Easy E wrote:
Bit of a rant ahead. Please skip it if you want something useful about RRT.

Sometimes I read comment pages/threads on games where players say things like... "Company X should do Z, and Company Y must have know this would happen, and Why can't Comapny A get this done in B time" and I wonder.

How many people here have actually been inside of a corporation (small, medium, or large) before and tried to actually get something done? I mean simple things that everyone agrees on still take months to get to implementation. Imagine what happens when not everyone agrees on the solution or doesn't think it is a problem.

I know from personal experience, I have spent years just getting people to agree that there is a problem that needs to be resolved in the first place much less how to solve it. Corporations/Companies are slow to react to anything.

Now, I'm sure everyone will point to the few, rare examples of a nimble corporation and prove me wrong.

/rant

The smaller the company, the more nimble it is. You're probably in a large company - and likely an old, well established one. Change moves at the speed of molasses in January in places like Big Oil or Education.
In newer companies (for example, ones that survived the dotcom bubble) it's much easier to get things changed, even if they're large.

In companies small enough they have to beg for volunteers to pack and send kickstarter rewards, change is as fast as sending an email to 10 people.

 judgedoug wrote:
Thought of the day: a game's success is not determined by a half dozen anonymous voices on an internet forum.

This was the best thing I've written on this thread. Coming back to it and witnessing the tears and gnashing and wailing were fantastic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Merijeek wrote:
You must not be used to arguing with religious fanatics or cultists. There will be no such thing that is forthcoming. Something was found that he thought validated his assertion, and therefore his assertion is right.

This is my favorite quote, because I am highly critical of Palladium. However, because I pointed out something that doesn't toe the party line, this is the result.

Oh, you guys!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
What do you mean, "SJG did so much better"?
Ogre Deluxe had horrible communication. Wave 1 was a year late. No action on many of the Stretch Goals, despite it being years later. SJG still owes us 30 minutes of music and a bunch of scenarios (that Steve totally fething lied about working on during the KS). Not to mention the Car Wars Kickstarter, the 2nd edition Ogre Miniatures rulebook (print and PDF), the Ogre computer game (in any form), and the Ogre expansion (again, anything will do). SJG has basically done nothing, and most backers have given up on SJG ever following through on the promises SJG made.
If Palladium actually finishes the remaining items within the next 15 months, they will have outdone SJG by a wide margin. Not only will Palladium have delivered a larger project within a shorter timeframe, but they will have done so against 2 layers of approval slowing things down (HG and Bandai).
Based on their demonstrated incompetence and failure to even attempt progress, I will never back another SJG project.

Bbbbbut the box is so huge! I keep looking at the darn thing at our FLGS and am afraid I might buy the thing, punch out cardboard models or not:


LONG time ago I think I had Ogre on the Commodore 64, was a fun game.
Scary to think even a half attempt at it to modern day standards, I can agree that bad implementation of a single source IP holder can be very frustrating.
Read many of the "Comment" section stuff, not nearly as nasty as the Robotech one but can plainly see some goals probably not going to be met.

Car wars was awesome.
I could say the same thing about it as Ogre above.

Steve Jackson has kinda the opposite problem as PB they tend to shoot for too much and have no back-up plan.

Plus, they made their own IP and they each were a phenomenon, Rifts never quite became anything for PB and Robotech is licensed to them.

Seems odd things do not go well for them (again taking on too much I think) look at the list of actual employees:
http://www.sjgames.com/general/staff.html

Wow, read wayyyy too much about SJ games writing this.
Tempted to see if I can make a cross-over of Ogre and Battletech.

 judgedoug wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Thought of the day: a game's success is not determined by a half dozen anonymous voices on an internet forum.

This was the best thing I've written on this thread. Coming back to it and witnessing the tears and gnashing and wailing w

No idea what you're talking about, but the actual success is actually determined by a half dozen people inside PB. And golly, that is going swimmingly.

Asterios wrote:
actually when it comes to retailers top 10 or top 20 sellers, don't listen to them, its all a big lie and this is from a retailer stand point, if you have product you want to move and move fast you say its a best seller and selling fast, so people are persuaded to impulse buy it in fear it will sell out

Right, so any best seller list is a big lie. Which is why you had to "deal with a crappy site" to even find the Top 20 for frpgames. They're pushing that REAL HARD

Asterios wrote:
Also who said FRP was the biggest online game store around? before today I never heard of them.

They are the retail arm of Warpath. Let me guess: you don't know who Warpath Distribution is, either?

Asterios wrote:

anywhoo after having to deal with a crappy site finally got the top 20 for FRPgames and other then the top game, the rest read like a whos who of mediocre games:

Actually, this list looks a like a who's who of the best selling games, new releases, expansions, and what is hot on BGG. Again, just because you are unfamiliar with FFG's high-selling Star Wars properties, a very very long awaited Dragon Age RPG release, the best selling Mice and Mystics game, King of Tokyo's bestselling status, the new releases for Arcadia Quest, Shadowrun, the insanely popular One Ring RPG (which keeps selling out of print runs). Citadels, Galaxy Defenders, Munchkin, Dominant Species, for feth's sake: those games are like printing money.

Asterios wrote:

and mind you, this company also sells games like Magic and so on, that are always big sellers, so to say a bunch of unknown games are outselling them, that should tell you whats up.

"Unknown games"

That is fantastic. Yes, unknown to you.

Actually, several observations

1. It is unsurprising that any of those items are on that list because they are all well-known, popular best-sellers or expansions to well-known, popular best-sellers
2. You are unaware of the industry as a whole (which is fine, most people aren't, and if you spend all of your time in one place, such as a single forum discussion thread, you won't realize that Mice & Mystics is one of hottest things in the boardgaming world right now)
3. It is surprising that Robotech is on that list at such as high positioin (it has dropped, it is now #3)
4. It is unsurprising that the reaction to my pointing out that Robotech is doing well at least one place has caused such as vitriolic backlash


Now, please, PLEASE keep telling me I'm a sycophantic PB cultist. It was a big cover when I voted NO for them to sell at Gencon! So that I could STRIKE in January with a screen shot of frpgames.com's best seller list! OH YOU GOT ME!
I was also the guy who went through the forums and ranked everyone's loyalty to PB so that the haters would have their packages shipped last - that was one of the prevailing theories on here, wasn't it?

Merijeek wrote:
You must not be used to arguing with religious fanatics or cultists. There will be no such thing that is forthcoming. Something was found that he thought validated his assertion, and therefore his assertion is right.

That's an astoundingly ironic example of ad hominem, considering you are accusing someone who actually provided evidence for a claim of being a fanatic in contrast to those who have dismissed the evidence out of hand for the sake of their predetermined opinion that RRT is a failure. This the worst thread I have ever seen on Dakka Dakka. I thought we had hit rock bottom at "PB is singling me out" but this is a new low.

 Manchu wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
You must not be used to arguing with religious fanatics or cultists. There will be no such thing that is forthcoming. Something was found that he thought validated his assertion, and therefore his assertion is right.

That's an astoundingly ironic example of ad hominem, considering you are accusing someone who actually provided evidence for a claim of being a fanatic in contrast to those who have dismissed the evidence out of hand for the sake of their predetermined opinion that RTT is a failure. This the worst thread I have ever seen on Dakka Dakka. I thought we had hit rock bottom at "PB is singling me out" but this is a new low.

I'm sorry - I wasn't aware that a single example was considered evidence.
And please explain where it was dismissed out of hand? The first response was "more data needed" and that response was mocked for no reason.