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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The RRT Valkyrie is based on transformable design, whereby each part has to be the same in all 3 modes. It is a "least bad" compromise of parts.
Bandai is doing a Hasegawa and only worrying about Fighter proportions. The Bandai fighters do not have to worry about looking "good" in Battloid (or Gerwalk) mode.

Yeah, I would probably have to disagree on this.
The PB model does have a much longer and thinner nose on it and it "appears" they do not maintain it in Battleoid mode (looks stubbier, could just be me).
It could have been made more bullet-nosed to be a bit closer to "canon". It appears the nose cone section could stand to be about 2/3rds it's size.
If we really wanted to be fussy which we were told the CAD modeling was all about.
Does it also seem that the wings on the back of the Battleoid should be close to the length of the nose?
<edit>Also notice the cockpit canopy is "straight" on the PB model and does not have that 30 deg bend near the back.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
I had concern about the Glaug too and how you could pose the sucker and there was a small painting and posing contest on the FB page. Here are some pics.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vfkdXei1LcFlNVG13N1RzemdWQURweWFQdVlVNEhLRW5mamFYUTJFWk9feWc&usp=sharing
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Also a good way to use an extra battloid

So we have the "Hold-on guys I got this" pose.
The super leap and land pose.
Then the classic foot on the defeated enemy. I might want to have foot-on-enemy-and-leveling-gun-to-head.

The running one I like the most but there must be a way to reduce the length of the stride: it is a bit much for the size of the base.
I think cutting the bottoms of the legs to feet so they are round and having a walking pose may do the trick: I think that may be the simplest mod with good payback.
The trick may be figuring out how to bend (cut) a leg so the hip pegs remain at the same height (<edit>maybe cut a bit inside the foot to level out?).
Yeah, I think this model is the most challenging to show some variety other than that repair pod which really I am unsure I want to do much with anyway.

Running the risk of being repetitive: Wave 2... rumors, progress, leaks, taking thumbscrews to key PB personnel...
<edit> Gone from kickstarter to kickstop.

On wave 2, I avoid asking now. When I have news some people are happy and still others bitch about "inside" information. So people need to realize they can't have it both ways. I think while annoying I can completely understand why PB is not willing to share much anymore.

 Mike1975 wrote:
On wave 2, I avoid asking now.

Why avoid asking what is obviously of import/interest to you personally?

When I have news some people are happy and still others bitch about "inside" information.

Any progress report is welcome, it shows active progress is being made and is not being shelved.
Those who complain of "inside information" I suspect are jealous they are not in the know.
The other end of it would be why not publically release that information rather than a chosen few (socialist mentality )

So people need to realize they can't have it both ways.

Logical conclusion BUT we are a varied bunch with differing motivations. <edit> You cannot please everyone, it does not mean don't try though.
I would suggest "catering" to the more positive crowd.

I think while annoying I can completely understand why PB is not willing to share much anymore.

It is I hate to say a rather dumb stance to take.
Why leave to the rumor-mill when you can "manage" the information to your benefit?
I have repeated this before and it all can give nothing to complain about in the end: (gah! big list, spoilering it now)With ALL this stuff going on it is EASY to show progress, you can say "HEY we got 3 models all ready to go!!! Just waiting on the other "X" which are being made now!!!."
Having a logical layout/timeline/plan and showing progress will demonstrate control rather than us thinking they are fumbling in the dark.

They can continue to keep buzz and interest since they can trickle-out info as progress is made.
By saying nothing the whole thing will drop off the radar and just leave a bunch of grumpy backers and confused retailers with potential customers giving it a pass.

What do you think Mike? Any hope someone could see it that way? I am not proud, I would use any "in" I can get to have my selfish wants addressed.
<edit>Hell, I would sign any non-disclosure agreement and be happy to make the road-trip down to help with planning... no anger on my part, more get-er-dun.
It is better to be part of a process than to have it inflicted on you...

I never said PB's stance was smart, but I feel myself feeling quite similar sometimes. I will ask the next time I speak to them. To be honest I did tell Jeff that an update on the next KS update would be good but I did not ask him about present status or specifics.

 Mike1975 wrote:
I never said PB's stance was smart, but I feel myself feeling quite similar sometimes.

Only because you are trying to explain for them or offer an "unofficial" alternative and get snubbed.
There is probably quite a few things you are not allowed to say and get punished for it.
That is the problem of being "in the know".
This is why them actively managing release of logical progress will take the heat off.

I will ask the next time I speak to them.

Much appreciated!

To be honest I did tell Jeff that an update on the next KS update would be good but I did not ask him about present status or specifics.

Please consider the list I outlined.
Maybe I am naive, but I really cannot see the harm, any particular area stalls you say "Because complicated overseas China issues!" or even better, only mention what is still moving.
Then immediately after you can say "Hey look at the new shiny cards for the unit!", distract, distract, distract.
Out with the bad (make no mention but actively fix it), in with the good (anything done? finishing up?), marketing spin with real facts not excuses.

At the very least get pictures of product regularly and use the same pre-release camera GW uses: blurry, so you cannot see the cavernous parting lines.
<edit> Or the 40 piece per model sprue (low resolution, 20 feet away). Yes, show only assembled models, by a professional, even more blurry pic.

 Mike1975 wrote:

On wave 2, I avoid asking now. When I have news some people are happy and still others bitch about "inside" information. So people need to realize they can't have it both ways. I think while annoying I can completely understand why PB is not willing to share much anymore.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with your continual "I know but I can't tell you but I could tell you because I know but I can't tell you because NDA but trust me it will fulfill all the hopes and dreams you ever had but I can't tell you because NDA" bs tap dance you pulled for something like a year.

But no, it's certainly just because people are mean.

Merijeek wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

On wave 2, I avoid asking now. When I have news some people are happy and still others bitch about "inside" information. So people need to realize they can't have it both ways. I think while annoying I can completely understand why PB is not willing to share much anymore.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with your continual "I know but I can't tell you but I could tell you because I know but I can't tell you because NDA but trust me it will fulfill all the hopes and dreams you ever had but I can't tell you because NDA" bs tap dance you pulled for something like a year.

But no, it's certainly just because people are mean.

So now, Prodos?

Merijeek wrote:
I'm sure it had nothing to do with your continual "I know but I can't tell you but I could tell you because I know but I can't tell you because NDA but trust me it will fulfill all the hopes and dreams you ever had but I can't tell you because NDA" bs tap dance you pulled for something like a year.
But no, it's certainly just because people are mean.

Wait till you sign a non-disclosure agreement sometime.
If it is important, you begin to feel torn (possibly bi-polar).

Some scenarios I could just imagine:Anyway, these loosely mirror some of my own experiences trying to develop product while tiptoeing around an IP / proprietary process that we need to do different while knowing the patented process.
Fun times.
Mike is only guilty of wanting to forward the game "official" or not (as best I can tell).
It looked to me he is not bothered with rules cast in stone in some tome handed down by the game-gods.

Many of us are competitive suckers and if it is not RAW then it did not happen, so home brew stuff can be considered irrelevant (unless the game dies, then we can mess with it at will!).

So, convince those PB people to give more detail, all the factual good stuff and can bother with bad news later when it has a chance to sort itself out...

 Talizvar wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
I'm sure it had nothing to do with your continual "I know but I can't tell you but I could tell you because I know but I can't tell you because NDA but trust me it will fulfill all the hopes and dreams you ever had but I can't tell you because NDA" bs tap dance you pulled for something like a year.
But no, it's certainly just because people are mean.

Wait till you sign a non-disclosure agreement sometime.
If it is important, you begin to feel torn (possibly bi-polar).

Want to know what the first rule of an NDA is? You don't talk about NDA. Want to know what the second rule of an NDA is?

As Meri pointed out, it's the whole "I've got a secret! But I'm not telling!" thing that grates. If you're under an NDA, you shouldn't even reveal you are under an NDA. If it becomes know that you are, you shouldn't mention it unless you're directly questioned, and even then your response should be "Can't speak about it, NDA". Dropping hints, or trying to avert things, or just using it to be a smug donkey-cave (not directed at Mike here, seen others though), doesn't do much good. If you really want something revealed, it's up to convincing the issuer of the NDA to do so. Not for you to do so.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
I'm sure it had nothing to do with your continual "I know but I can't tell you but I could tell you because I know but I can't tell you because NDA but trust me it will fulfill all the hopes and dreams you ever had but I can't tell you because NDA" bs tap dance you pulled for something like a year.
But no, it's certainly just because people are mean.

Wait till you sign a non-disclosure agreement sometime.
If it is important, you begin to feel torn (possibly bi-polar).

Want to know what the first rule of an NDA is? You don't talk about NDA. Want to know what the second rule of an NDA is?

As Meri pointed out, it's the whole "I've got a secret! But I'm not telling!" thing that grates. If you're under an NDA, you shouldn't even reveal you are under an NDA. If it becomes know that you are, you shouldn't mention it unless you're directly questioned, and even then your response should be "Can't speak about it, NDA". Dropping hints, or trying to avert things, or just using it to be a smug donkey-cave (not directed at Mike here, seen others though), doesn't do much good. If you really want something revealed, it's up to convincing the issuer of the NDA to do so. Not for you to do so.

Which would be true for a normal typical NDA. BUT you guys know very well that that is not what I had signed. Mine was with the explicit purpose that I could share impressions and more about the game as long as I did not reveal written materials in any way. I remember being told the same to Rick/Asterios until I offered to send him a copy he was the worlds expert on NDA's. Frankly I find it funny, childish, and sad all at once that something that was full well resolved is being drug back up. I wonder what the motivation might be......????


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And you also know full well I pushed the limits as far as I could to share as much as I could.

NDA's as stated and from my own experience varies.
Mine was not to reveal settings or techniques.
I HAD to discuss the process to some degree: common industry practices.
So weird wording and "you figure it out from there" is not being a son of a gun but helping as best you can.
I do agree it amounts to frustration for both groups.
So at least we have some means of advocacy other than the heavily moderated PB forums.
My involvement in this is for Mike to not give up.
I shudder to think where PB would hear the voice of tabletop gamers after that.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Which would be true for a normal typical NDA. BUT you guys know very well that that is not what I had signed. Mine was with the explicit purpose that I could share impressions and more about the game as long as I did not reveal written materials in any way. I remember being told the same to Rick/Asterios until I offered to send him a copy he was the worlds expert on NDA's. Frankly I find it funny, childish, and sad all at once that something that was full well resolved is being drug back up. I wonder what the motivation might be......????

The motivation is for you to get done from your "I tried to be helpful but people were meeeeeeean so now I'm not even gonna try I'm just gonna sit here in a corner and pout."

And if you consider Rick to be the world's greatest expert on anything, well, I can offer you some great appraisals of this bridge that I can sell you for well below what you could resell it for.

I bought CAV since the minis are awesome but as much as I love CAV...Robotech was my first love. I've converted some units from wave 1 for use in Robotech Tactics. Still a WIP but feel free to suggest changes. I'm not completely familiar with CAV or the unit abilities so help is welcome.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vdG16bUx0ME4xSEE&authuser=0

Regarding sharing of information; this is the same debate had regarding Palladium's dissemination of info as well.

This is a sizable group of people, all with different views, experiences, opinions and desires. Dozens of participants in this thread, quite possibly hundreds once accounting for infrequent commentators/lurkers. The KS campaign has over 5k contributors, and while generally only dozens (if that) seem to speak up regularly, we've hit easily hundreds upon hundreds of contributors at once, and probably even more when adding in those who didn't bother to post (plus outside observers).

Long story short, there will always be donkey caves.

Any stance that starts with 'people are mean on the internet/why should they talk to backers/consumers if they're going to be jerks/etc' fails right from the premise.

The reason to keep people informed is A) because they said they would during the campaign, and B) because unless they truly believe that 'the negativity' folks are in the majority, they do more good spreading information and reducing the foothold misinformation can take than remaining silent because of some, ah, vocally obnoxious sorts.

Hell, it's often stated (here, in the comments, elsewhere) that the vocally obnoxious are some sort of tiny minority, a mere handful of individuals, perhaps a few dozen at most. By that standard, how the gak would punishing 99% or 95% or hell 90% of the backers/consumers for the actions of a fraction of the base make sense?

"Oh, we could show you renders and toss up a Gantt Chart showing where every figure is, but Forar's a real fether so screw y'all!"

These are communities with limited abilities to police themselves. People can voice dissent, dislike, and outright mockery, and as long as they stay within the guidelines of Facebook / Dakka / KS / etc, they will continue to do so. Which is highly pertinent because it means that other than peer pressure there is little that the "non-haters" can do about "the haters".

We've done this dance a dozen times and I suspect we'll do it again, but while I don't expect the PB staff to be robots, immune to verbal slings and arrows, I do expect them to be professional and to act for the greater good.

Setting deadlines they flagrantly cannot hit is and has always been folly, so kudos on them for finally recognizing that.

But choosing to go all "name, rank and serial number only!" in the face of (supposedly) a handful of jerks is plenty silly on its own.

So without going all Conspiracy Theory, what they say (Wave 2 is totes coming along!) and what they're showing (... nothing) will continue to be at odds.

And frankly, we all know that they are going to start talking about whatever releases they have for Gencon in the next few months, at which point it would become flat out transparent that the emphasis is on the financial bottom line; that the need or desire to make money with whatever they have on hand outweighs their reluctance to share. "Oh, we can't tell you things, we don't want to build hopes or anythHEY LOOK AT WHAT WILL BE FOR SAAAALE!"

Chinese New Year apparently starts next week, so presumably production is already winding down (if it hasn't already) and likely little will happen from the factory for weeks, if not the rest of the month.

If there's something to say on the matter of the other 22'ish figures that make up the rest of the product line (as we know it) and the handful of resin pieces (bases, objective markers, SDF-1, etc), I daresay that'd be a fine time to bring us up to speed.

 Forar wrote:
[...]Any stance that starts with 'people are mean on the internet/why should they talk to backers/consumers if they're going to be jerks/etc' fails right from the premise.
The reason to keep people informed is A) because they said they would during the campaign, and B) because unless they truly believe that 'the negativity' folks are in the majority, they do more good spreading information and reducing the foothold misinformation can take than remaining silent because of some, ah, vocally obnoxious sorts.
Hell, it's often stated (here, in the comments, elsewhere) that the vocally obnoxious are some sort of tiny minority, a mere handful of individuals, perhaps a few dozen at most. By that standard, how the gak would punishing 99% or 95% or hell 90% of the backers/consumers for the actions of a fraction of the base make sense?

More than a few gaming companies of late remind me strongly of dealing with the bank - they too like your money just where it is, and the only conversation they're ever willing to have is how you can put more of it in the same place.

But when companies start withholding information about a service they are providing while asking everyone to nevertheless trust them to still carry it off.... yeah, that is a bit silly.
Because when you get someone acting like that over email or on the phone, it's usually some kind of telemarketer if not indicative of a scam, yet somehow a company acting in the same manner believes themselves to be completely different.

And really, when it comes down to it are so many folks said companies feel are asking too much, actually asking for too much?

Namely:
Show that progress is being made,
Deliver on what was promised,
Fix what the company goofs up,
Not be complete a$$holes about everything.

Sure, the details might be subjective at times on the part of both the company and consumers, but is all of that so absolutely difficult that the powers that be at these companies can't manage to make good on it while feeling the need to no longer say anything?
Even the most vehement "haters" are in essence asking for the same things as the constructive criticism folks.

 Forar wrote:
Chinese New Year apparently starts next week, so presumably production is already winding down (if it hasn't already) and likely little will happen from the factory for weeks, if not the rest of the month.

If there's something to say on the matter of the other 22'ish figures that make up the rest of the product line (as we know it) and the handful of resin pieces (bases, objective markers, SDF-1, etc), I daresay that'd be a fine time to bring us up to speed.

Also regarding the schedule, remember that GenCon is two weeks earlier this year. May not seem like much, but going from 23 weeks to 21 weeks after the end of CNY, it IS a 10% loss of time, and given so many "fixed times" (production/shipping/customs/domestic trans), that means the percentage of "flexible time" lost is significantly larger.

If you assume production is four weeks, and shipping in it's entirety is four weeks (and I think those estimates are light), that leaves 13 weeks (as opposed to 15 last year) to get twice as much done. Sure, some of it MAY be duplication (specifically all the variations on the Veritechs), but that also means not "fixing" the issues with those for the next Wave.

Of course, it's not an issue if they go full "screw the backer", cause then they can just concentrate on a handful of units, and get them ready and shipped for GenCon/Black Friday. As they're not gonna spring for a third Wave, that means backers would have to wait. And I'm sure at this point, the backers would be tolerant and understanding.

As long as I get my stuff, and it's good, I don't care what they do at GenCon.

If that means they move away from a poisonous back-and-forth in the comments, fine. If it means no WIP shots, fine.

But if they feth it up...

Point the first: considering the at least thin veneer of 'you should totally still be getting it first!' they're keeping up regarding RRT being on shelves it's 'not supposed to be on yet', if people complain about it being available at Gencon before backers get it, that's of PB's own making. They said it originally, and continue to double down on it. If it doesn't bother you though, that's cool, that's cool.

Point the second: what "poisonous back and forth in the comments"? That happened, like... once. Nearly a year ago, during "Spartangate". And despite one person being a donkeycave in the comments and them commenting back, let's not overlook that "Spartangate" led to good things happening. Feedback was given, and even if their initial stance was "nope, this is how it is, can never ever be changed"... they then changed it. Unless you're referring to the backers sniping at each other, which has indeed dramatically dwindled, but I'm thinking that's due to a mix of satisfaction that *something, anything* has been delivered and/or apathy/disengagement from the project, which isn't exactly a good thing.

Point the third: this seems incongruous with your other points. If you care about quality, then surely being kept abreast in a fashion such that you might give feedback on what you think are problems is more worthwhile before the molds are cut rather than after.

It's why the "just wait and see it in person!" stance has always been problematic: by the time we can do so, it's too late. At which point people are often found pointing out the futility of bitching about it, which is hilarious on a couple of levels. "Don't complain until you can see it!" followed by "Why complain it's too late to do anything about it!" A nice firm circle of immunity to critique.

Are you Lola?

Yes.

In the manner that we are all Lola. You are Lola, Mike is Lola, I am Lola, Lola is Lola (Lolasquared?).

Strangely Warboss isn't Lola.

He knows what he did.

 Forar wrote:
A nice firm circle of immunity to critique.

Words to run a demo team and forum by. I know you're not lola because you're actually NMI!

Hey hey hey hey there.

Let's not say anything we can't take back.

Though it would make my preemptive temp-banning last year even funnier than it was.

So I'm not the only one convicted of precrime? My 3 month ban was because NMI was afraid I might troll the NEXT kickstarter... seriously.

Is it already time for the next PB KS?!?

PB should just get a patreon like Bluetable painting and be done with it

 Forar wrote:
Yes.

In the manner that we are all Lola. You are Lola, Mike is Lola, I am Lola, Lola is Lola (Lolasquared?).

Lola-ception?

 Alpharius wrote:
Is it already time for the next PB KS?!?

Surely you mean that it's time for them to deliver the 2/3 of the sculpts that are still missing!


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Sining wrote:
PB should just get a patreon like Bluetable painting and be done with it

But what would they do when they've spent all of the $112 raised?

 warboss wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Is it already time for the next PB KS?!?

Surely you mean that it's time for them to deliver the 2/3 of the sculpts that are still missing!

No worries! I am sure we will see some for sale at Gencon.

 Alpharius wrote:
Is it already time for the next PB KS?!?

All kidding aside, I sincerely hope they only do so (if they choose to) once this campaign is done. As in, not "the molds are done and we're working on production and delivery, you can totes trust us!", but "the last box just left the warehouse".

As a show of good faith (yes yes, boo hiss, I know). To actually complete something they've started before adding even more to their plate.

So if they decide to do another campaign, I say wrap up wave 2 this year, get through the holidays (grab bags!!), relax a bit and get a head start on series 2 (and/or 3, depending on what they go with).

Will it prevent ALL the bitching? Keep ALL the trolls out? Of course not. But it'd be a hell of a lot classier than raising questions as to whether or not they're taking Peter's money to pay Paul, as has been alluded to a hundred times now (Hi Rick!).

 Forar wrote:

All kidding aside, I sincerely hope they only do so (if they choose to) once this campaign is done. As in, not "the molds are done and we're working on production and delivery, you can totes trust us!", but "the last box just left the warehouse".

As evidenced by the sham vote, I don't think most backers would sadly care. That said... I would point out that 5+ months after shipping "started" (Gencon or bust!), only a single continent has received wave 1. If they say that the molds are done, that is in no way a guarantee of anything arriving in a timely fashion. In any case, I'm no longer a customer of theirs so it doesn't affect me. After I get wave 2 and pick up a single zentraedi infantry box at my FLGS, I'm done with palladium again.