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With UEDF units my issue is all the main parts are hollow.
I can still hack them up for posing but pinning is problematic without filling.
Cutting they are also delicate, I suppose it is easier because of less material but solid limbs would have been preferred.
For the destroids I pretty much went stock, I only assembled 4 of each type so the options are sufficient to keep them different enough.
The Veritech's however I mainly went nuts on hacking up the legs in various ways to try to keep both feet on the ground one way or another with some customization.

The Zents, what to say.
The pods are basically expendable "ammo" so I would not try too much to make them look heroic.
Cutting the legs is unthinkable to me because they just are too smooth to do much with (really thin too).
Good thing the 3 sets of two LH/RH legs can be mixed creatively enough to give variety.
Moving the various guns around also varies them a fair bit.
Too bad the Glaug's do not lend themselves to posing or customization: they are the heroes of the Zent's so I think it will only be conveyed with paint and decals.

I am going to try to hold some games around 300pts with 3 players per side each in charge of a unit and see how that goes (3 units per side).

UEDF
I have a vanilla Veritech squad.
Veritech with the multiple missile pods and nose guns.
Destroid Tomahawk squad with command upgrade.

Zents
2X Scout squads with two missile pods attached.
Normal battle group.

I was debating to make it a convoy scenario.

3 more pods to put together and it is all done for assembly (plus I had the other 3 destroid squads assembled).

I have found a couple creative ways to pose the legs to get variety, for some reason I dread the leg positioning more than anything else with these guys.

Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?

Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened

Sining wrote:
Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?

Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened

I was under that impression as well. The Zentradi stuff is real concise but the UEDF is crummy for parts count. The Zentradi still have fiddly bits however, the recon pod and the glaug have some tiny instant break pieces.

Sining wrote:
Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?

Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened

That's a lot of assumptions there when you have no knowledge how and what happened between UEDF and Zen. They all have ND on them just the same so my point is perfectly valid. Also we know both were in simultaneous development and say sprues of both at the same time. We did not see only Zen sprues and then later UEDF ones. So I'd be interested to see what evidence you have to the contrary other than heresay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First SIghting the Glaug-Eldare
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts?_=1424747613948&page=11
Dec 2013

Second Sighting Battlepods
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts?_=1424747613948&page=10
Jan 2014

Third Sighting Glaug and Pod Parts Breakdown and complaints about the # of parts already start
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts?_=1424747613948&page=9
Feb 2014

Veritech Fighter Breakdown and more parts complaints come in. Right after Spartan is seen and Spartangate.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts?_=1424747613948&page=8
Mar 2014

First Sprues - Zen and Dice discussion on parts and crappy dice continue. Veritechs in all 3 modes shown to help show quality and more parts and seams comments and worries. Assembled Pods shown to help show results and avert more bad press on parts and assembly.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts?_=1424747613948&page=8
April 2014

Box Contents shown and improved Spartan layout shown. Assembled Veritechs and Battloids shown.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts?_=1424747613948&page=6
May 2014

Seems pretty simultaneous to me.

I've never said that the zen pods were previewed first. I also have no proof to the other that both were designed at the same time. Maybe shown at the same time but designing at the same time in the sense that when the zen pod goes up to 10% completed, the UEDF is also 10%ish completed? Instead of just doing the zen pod to 100%, doing the UEDF and then previewing both? I have no evidence that isn't what happened. Do you?

Also, like I said there must be reasons why they went from the zen pod design to the UEDF one. Who knows what these reasons might be. Certainly, some people suspect it to be the work of certain people notorious in the industry for micromanagement. But I suppose you can just say maybe the sculptor had an off day. Or week.

More importantly, I've also heard the UEDF sprues are very similar to the 1980s nichimo sprues, which if true kind of supports one theory.

Sining wrote:
I've never said that the zen pods were previewed first. I also have no proof to the other that both were designed at the same time. Maybe shown at the same time but designing at the same time in the sense that when the zen pod goes up to 10% completed, the UEDF is also 10%ish completed? Instead of just doing the zen pod to 100%, doing the UEDF and then previewing both? I have no evidence that isn't what happened. Do you?

Also, like I said there must be reasons why they went from the zen pod design to the UEDF one. Who knows what these reasons might be. Certainly, some people suspect it to be the work of certain people notorious in the industry for micromanagement. But I suppose you can just say maybe the sculptor had an off day. Or week.

More importantly, I've also heard the UEDF sprues are very similar to the 1980s nichimo sprues, which if true kind of supports one theory.

So you are saying that nobody has proof one way or the other just pure conjecture. There is even only conjecture on whether their was some evil and dastardly plan in the reason and rhyme behind choosing the minis that would be produced in the greatest quantity first over minis that would be produced in smaller numbers....There is also only conjecture that the same dastardly and evil plan was prepared and thought out from day one and that it was purposefully planned from day one to produce Zen miniatures first because somehow that would throw 5000+ people off the scent that the dastardly plan existed to purposefully and maliciously make tiny plastic models/miniatures that could save a few bucks by making them in the cheapest way possible. Also the fact that a few of the Zen miniatures were produced first, the ones that would be produced in the largest quantities, and then the Veritechs, the ones that would be produced in the next largest quantity were designed in some specific order to fulfill the dastardly plan. Yeah...I see your point....makes perfect sense. I apologize for questioning it.


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http://www.collectiondx.com/gallery2/gallery/d/520356-4/dxmisslephalexinstrucb.jpg

http://www.collectiondx.com/gallery2/gallery/d/575688-3/sparinstruc.jpg

I see the resemblance...

Unfortunately neither myself or Sining have ours, so you'll have to explain if that's sarcasm or not Mike

I think the nichimo actually has fewer bits. But still everything down the center.

Also, I have no idea why there needs to be a dastardly plan. Things changed cause of 'reasons'. There's no need to make up a strawman with dastardly plans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I never said they were produced in the cheapest way possible. I think in someone's mind, everyone has been merged into this one mythical anti-PB, anti-RRT, anti-HG figure that has the traits of every single person who's expressed unhappiness with them before.

In other words, I think you're confusing me for Rick -_-

 Mike1975 wrote:

Sining wrote:
Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?

Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened

That's a lot of assumptions there when you have no knowledge how and what happened between UEDF and Zen. They all have ND on them just the same so my point is perfectly valid. Also we know both were in simultaneous development and say sprues of both at the same time. We did not see only Zen sprues and then later UEDF ones. So I'd be interested to see what evidence you have to the contrary other than heresay.

That's a bit harsh, Mike. Sining was pretty clear it was opinion (use of "seem"). And asking for evidence when there's no evidence to support it being more ND's fault, even though you asserted that in a similar opine, is wrong. We're never going to know for sure who's fault it was. And by no means do I think Ninja Division are completely blameless in this. There are two points of conjecture that do make it seem more like it was PB's (or Harmony Gold) fault for the parts counts.

The first, is that PB are ultimately responsible for the decision. If they weren't happy with it, and had even a basic knowledge of what was out there already, then it's on KevCo to make sure it's done properly. Sure, they had to satisfy HG's specific details, but they signed off on these.

The second, is that ND aren't known for doing this. On stuff like Super Dungeon Explore, their parts counts are minimalist. The Relic Knights stuff is a little more complicated, but looks like nothing compared with the Robotech figures.

From an outsider, looking at the bodies of work of Ninja Division in miniature design on one side, and PB's micromanagement and HG's purist vision nature on the other (which PB have even alluded to), I think it's hard to ask them to believe that ND went so off character for no reason other than "Cause screw PB, that's why". There may be other reasons (design/manufacturing limitations of the chosen factory, deadline issues to get it done, any number of undisclosed reasons), but in the end, as mentioned in the first point, it's irrelevant. PB signed off on these things (and were effusive with their praise, don't forget) and consistently said "quality over time", so it's on them.

SDE minis are PVC, not hard styrene, so that helps get the part count down because minor undercuts are possible.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
SDE minis are PVC, not hard styrene, so that helps get the part count down because minor undercuts are possible.

As other companies demonstrate time and again (for example, Dreamforge, to name a company that also started doing plastic miniatures from a KS and without any previous work on the field), you can do a lot more. It's just more expensive.

As for what does or doesn't allow a plastic sprue... just go take a look at a Gunpla kit sometime, and get back to us then

I have no idea how much DFG paid for their stuff but I can attest their HIPs producer; WGF, is top-notch. They do malifaux which has some of the most beautiful (albeit monopose) miniatures I've seen.

Also, with regards to DFG, it may be just me but I find they have too many bits also -_- I was assembling the Valkir assault troops I got and compared them to the mantic peacekeepers, and basically I prefer assembling the peacekeepers over the assault troops. They're like 5 pieces (arm arm body leg leg head) vs 10 or so for the assault (arm arm body leg leg waist head skirting 1 skirting 2 shoulderpad 1 shoulderpad2 etc) Good quality but I've got big clumsy fingers and trying to glue them at times was testing my patience.

But DFGs stuff is truly multi-pose. Yes Mark could have gotten away with a much reduced parts count, but at the cost of giving us all another manufacturer of 'cookie-cutter' armies.

PB's problem is that they seem (Again, I don't have minis in hand, I can only go by what has been said here.) to have gone overboard on the parts count for the posability of what they have delivered (or at least, partly delivered.)

Once tooling costs are out of the way, the biggest cost in manufacturing plastic models is the 'conversion' cost. The cost of converting the plastic pellets into the shape that you want. This is set mainly by the cycle time - the time it takes to produce 1 moulding, and the machine size. Injection machines are rated in tonnes, not the weight of the machine, but the compressive force it can exert. Higher rated machines can mould larger frames without flash, which is caused when the injection pressure exceeds the clamping pressure.

What this boils down to is that tightly packed frames can use a physically smaller machine, but may still need to be run on a larger machine due to the pressure required. Larger frames need longer cycle times to ensure that the plastic has completely filled the frame before it cools enough to stop further movement. If it cools too quickly, you get sink marks and short shots which should be rejected.

This increasing scrap rate also impacts the costs. And I doubt that PB understood any of this, making it quite believeable that they underestimated how much it would cost them to get this product to market.

It is also quite possible that in their obsession to get this done as cheaply as possible, they have split so many parts to get round undercuts and things like barrels, that the conversion costs are more than if they had gone the route of lowering the parts count and using 'slide-core' tooling to make it work. This sort of tooling is more expensive to manufacture because of the moving parts in the mould - and of course it takes more money to get it designed, too. But the subsequent moulding could have been better quality and faster to run, which would have saved some money there and pleased more of the backers ...who knows.

It's amazing how many of us ROW backers dont have minis in hand. While they're in shops. Here.

I think the biggest cost that PB didn't foresee for this KS is probably shipping. Just how much did USPS increase by since 2013? I know Miniature market likes to try and charge me 40-60USD for shipping a semi-small box to Singapore. And PB has to do it 2x.

Yeah, but that's airmail and individual, PB went with the superior option of slow boat to an unnamed distributor, coincidentally being the much cheaper option. A lot of options they choose are also cheaper by coincidence. What strange luck they have.

Joyboozer wrote:
Yeah, but that's airmail and individual, PB went with the superior option of slow boat to an unnamed distributor, coincidentally being the much cheaper option. A lot of options they choose are also cheaper by coincidence. What strange luck they have.

Happy coincidences every time, I'm sure.

Joyboozer wrote:
Yeah, but that's airmail and individual, PB went with the superior option of slow boat to an unnamed distributor, coincidentally being the much cheaper option. A lot of options they choose are also cheaper by coincidence. What strange luck they have.

Hah, I have no distributor here. Also, don't you guys have to import taxes on your stuff when it arrives?

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Sining wrote:
Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?

Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened

That's a lot of assumptions there when you have no knowledge how and what happened between UEDF and Zen. They all have ND on them just the same so my point is perfectly valid. Also we know both were in simultaneous development and say sprues of both at the same time. We did not see only Zen sprues and then later UEDF ones. So I'd be interested to see what evidence you have to the contrary other than heresay.

That's a bit harsh, Mike. Sining was pretty clear it was opinion (use of "seem"). And asking for evidence when there's no evidence to support it being more ND's fault, even though you asserted that in a similar opine, is wrong. We're never going to know for sure who's fault it was. And by no means do I think Ninja Division are completely blameless in this. There are two points of conjecture that do make it seem more like it was PB's (or Harmony Gold) fault for the parts counts.

The first, is that PB are ultimately responsible for the decision. If they weren't happy with it, and had even a basic knowledge of what was out there already, then it's on KevCo to make sure it's done properly. Sure, they had to satisfy HG's specific details, but they signed off on these.

The second, is that ND aren't known for doing this. On stuff like Super Dungeon Explore, their parts counts are minimalist. The Relic Knights stuff is a little more complicated, but looks like nothing compared with the Robotech figures.

From an outsider, looking at the bodies of work of Ninja Division in miniature design on one side, and PB's micromanagement and HG's purist vision nature on the other (which PB have even alluded to), I think it's hard to ask them to believe that ND went so off character for no reason other than "Cause screw PB, that's why". There may be other reasons (design/manufacturing limitations of the chosen factory, deadline issues to get it done, any number of undisclosed reasons), but in the end, as mentioned in the first point, it's irrelevant. PB signed off on these things (and were effusive with their praise, don't forget) and consistently said "quality over time", so it's on them.

I don't think I was harsh at all honestly. I pointed out that what we all have IS indeed pure conjecture and that can be just as dangerous as the truth since conjecture can become truth in the mind of someone if it fits what they perceive as the facts.

I also pointed out that there was a VERY good reason to start on the Battlepods and Artillery Pods. The Battlepods would be by far the most numerous mini created and the Artillery Pods were a quick step away with them just having the artillery for the top. Then they moved on to the Veritechs, the next largest batch. When you look at things Common Sense is usually more effective than pointing the finger and proscribe ill intents on the creators of a product. Their is also ample evidence as shown that the products were worked on simultaneously. Although they may have been done by 2 different individuals with 2 different personal methodologies. It is entirely possible that ND has more than one sculptor and each uses his own methods to design the end product. As far as ND going off character....that can be argued since we have no knowledge.

Whether they did or did not and were or were not pushed to do so that fact that they DID so knowing the results and consequences and knowing their name would be on the product speaks more to their character than anything if true. They were the experts and had their name on it. There is no strawman here. There is simple what we know and what we do not. I think it likely as Conrad Turner stated, PB asked ND to take a route and without the proper experience did not understand what the outcome and final destination would be.

Sining wrote:
It's amazing how many of us ROW backers dont have minis in hand. While they're in shops. Here.

No they aren't, that's not possible, and if it is then those stores are breaking 'street date', they should be reported and truly the wrath of Palladium for stores daring to order and sell their stuff will be terrifying to behold. I'd recommend retreating to a safe distance... like, orbit. It will be Mega-Damage Hellfire(tm)(c)(r), and you won't want to be on the same planetary mass when it hits.

>.>

Sining wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Yeah, but that's airmail and individual, PB went with the superior option of slow boat to an unnamed distributor, coincidentally being the much cheaper option. A lot of options they choose are also cheaper by coincidence. What strange luck they have.

Hah, I have no distributor here. Also, don't you guys have to import taxes on your stuff when it arrives?

Europe? Yes. Australia? Not unless the shipment's value is... a lot, don't remember how much.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Sining wrote:
Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?

Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened

That's a lot of assumptions there when you have no knowledge how and what happened between UEDF and Zen. They all have ND on them just the same so my point is perfectly valid. Also we know both were in simultaneous development and say sprues of both at the same time. We did not see only Zen sprues and then later UEDF ones. So I'd be interested to see what evidence you have to the contrary other than heresay.

That's a bit harsh, Mike. Sining was pretty clear it was opinion (use of "seem"). And asking for evidence when there's no evidence to support it being more ND's fault, even though you asserted that in a similar opine, is wrong. We're never going to know for sure who's fault it was. And by no means do I think Ninja Division are completely blameless in this. There are two points of conjecture that do make it seem more like it was PB's (or Harmony Gold) fault for the parts counts.

The first, is that PB are ultimately responsible for the decision. If they weren't happy with it, and had even a basic knowledge of what was out there already, then it's on KevCo to make sure it's done properly. Sure, they had to satisfy HG's specific details, but they signed off on these.

The second, is that ND aren't known for doing this. On stuff like Super Dungeon Explore, their parts counts are minimalist. The Relic Knights stuff is a little more complicated, but looks like nothing compared with the Robotech figures.

From an outsider, looking at the bodies of work of Ninja Division in miniature design on one side, and PB's micromanagement and HG's purist vision nature on the other (which PB have even alluded to), I think it's hard to ask them to believe that ND went so off character for no reason other than "Cause screw PB, that's why". There may be other reasons (design/manufacturing limitations of the chosen factory, deadline issues to get it done, any number of undisclosed reasons), but in the end, as mentioned in the first point, it's irrelevant. PB signed off on these things (and were effusive with their praise, don't forget) and consistently said "quality over time", so it's on them.

I don't think I was harsh at all honestly. I pointed out that what we all have IS indeed pure conjecture and that can be just as dangerous as the truth since conjecture can become truth in the mind of someone if it fits what they perceive as the facts.

I also pointed out that there was a VERY good reason to start on the Battlepods and Artillery Pods. The Battlepods would be by far the most numerous mini created and the Artillery Pods were a quick step away with them just having the artillery for the top. Then they moved on to the Veritechs, the next largest batch. When you look at things Common Sense is usually more effective than pointing the finger and proscribe ill intents on the creators of a product. Their is also ample evidence as shown that the products were worked on simultaneously. Although they may have been done by 2 different individuals with 2 different personal methodologies. It is entirely possible that ND has more than one sculptor and each uses his own methods to design the end product. As far as ND going off character....that can be argued since we have no knowledge.

Whether they did or did not and were or were not pushed to do so that fact that they DID so knowing the results and consequences and knowing their name would be on the product speaks more to their character than anything if true. They were the experts and had their name on it. There is no strawman here. There is simple what we know and what we do not. I think it likely as Conrad Turner stated, PB asked ND to take a route and without the proper experience did not understand what the outcome and final destination would be.

I notice how there's nothing here about how you mistook me for Rick who was the one who said PB made the sprues that way to cut cost. And you know, not me.

In other words, Spartacus!

Also doesn't PB also have their name on this by that logic? And isn't PB the one pushing all sales of it and the one overall in charge of it, again by that same logic?

Definitely the PM has responsibility, I never said they did not. What I did say was that I attributed that Lions share of the blame to ND for not doing their job, designing. If the minis could have been made better by one process over another it is their responsibility to push and inform the purchaser of their project that their are better alternatives and work to deliver the best product, especially when you have a PM that is inexperienced with said product.

Who approved ND's work? Who vetted and chose ND in the first place?

And while Palladium's mini experience may be minimal, HG should have had people with experience in the field looking over this as well.

There's plenty of blame to go around, but equivocating (if not declaring ND as owners of the 'lions share of the blame') seems to put an awful lot of power and responsibility in their hands while ignoring the dozens of times we heard about how PB and HG were approving things.

Doing crappy work is a flaw.

Is not approving crappy work even worse? Wherein several people all look over the results and said "Yup, that's good, go to print!"

And something I know I've brought up before, from what I've read it's possible that it wasn't ND that split up the pieces for the sprue, but someone at the factory. Apparently this isn't an uncommon thing? I know Wyrd has actually had to yell at the factory they worked with for getting some silly cuts going on.

So it's possible that ND had *nothing* to do with the final sprues, unless PB/HG turned to them as part of the approvals process, which is minutia we may never actually know about.

Long story short, it might not have had anything to do with ND, and even if it was, *someone* else in the loop should have called them on that bullgak.

Edit: and yes, in the end, what does it really matter? I suppose in part I'm just tired of the never ending sense that nothing is ever PB's fault, it's always someone else. "Boy who cried wolf" style, it makes times when they may legitimately not be at fault all the harder to believe.

Which is absolutely their doing, barring some tragic Gypsy curse or native american burial ground being involved.

 Albertorius wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
SDE minis are PVC, not hard styrene, so that helps get the part count down because minor undercuts are possible.

As other companies demonstrate time and again (for example, Dreamforge, to name a company that also started doing plastic miniatures from a KS and without any previous work on the field), you can do a lot more. It's just more expensive.

As for what does or doesn't allow a plastic sprue... just go take a look at a Gunpla kit sometime, and get back to us then

I backed Mark's DreamForge Leviathan Crusader KS, and built that kit. It is a LOT of pieces of hard styrene with ZERO undercuts.

I have built Master Grade GunPla, and again, ZERO undercuts (aside from the new kits using slide molds, which would not have helped here). All of those kits are 2-part legs and arms for the same issue with undercuts that we see here with with the Valkyrie kits.

It would appear to me that you using rather poor examples, as both of them simply reinforce that Palladium / ND did the correct thing in terms of part separation for the models, based on the physical texture and detailing required to accurately reproduce the RoboTech Macross designs.

I'm curious, do you even know what an undercut is? Maybe you should Google it and educate yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?

weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others?

RRT backers like to find fault and blame people?

The Pod sprue was OK, simply because it lacks arms or other complex appendages. It's a legged egg - very simple design, very few parts.

The Recovery Pod is also OK, because it is big, and also inherently simple.

The Recon Pod is a little bit confusing, needs instructions or a really good picture of what goes where - poor sprue layout.

The Glaug hip design is not well-integrated into the body for no obvious reason - again, poor sprue layout.


The UEDF Destroids are OK, although I thought some of the separations were less than ideal. The waist joints were an unnecessary complication.

The UEDF Valks are inherently complex models, being winged humanoids that transform. To me, the biggest offender is the Battloid waist joint - totally unnecessary. And, as I've noted earlier, the Fighter wings should pivot, or at least be multi-position to swept. Finally, all of the wings should have missile attachment points marked. The biggest problem with these models is that the reference design and artwork wasn't really planned around making a tiny 3-D model kit out of hard styrene.


In my assessment, for the material in question (styrene), the parts breakdown and separation is about as good as it could be. The biggest flaw is sprue layout, with short attachment runners, excess framing, and poor logical grouping; however, not knowing to what extent the sprue layout is dictated by flow, fill and machine, it's hard to say if they could have done much better.

Morgan Vening wrote:
We're never going to know for sure who's fault it was.

The second, is that ND aren't known for doing this. On stuff like Super Dungeon Explore, their parts counts are minimalist. The Relic Knights stuff is a little more complicated, but looks like nothing compared with the Robotech figures.

but in the end, as mentioned in the first point, it's irrelevant. PB signed off on these things (and were effusive with their praise, don't forget) and consistently said "quality over time", so it's on them.

I would also note that Harmony Gold is involved in the approval process, and had previously licensed the RoboTech label to Revell to bring the Japanese kits over way back when. HG has seen far more complex kits and definitely had a say in what would be required. Personally, I would prefer to blame HG and Macek. I have no issue assuming bad intent with those guys, based on their history and actions.

As noted earlier (and ignored by some), ND / SPM works pretty much exclusively in PVC, which allows for undercuts, resulting in reduced parts count at the cost of softer detail. I believe that these are the first styrene kits by ND / SPM, unlike Super Dungeon Explore or Relic Knights or Ninja All-Stars (KS coming soon).

PB did sign off and approve, although it's not clear how much was dictated by HG - remember that PB isn't the only approver here. It may well be that HG is/was dictating requirements to ND via PB, and PB just passed everything through in order to get approvals.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Whether they did or did not and were or were not pushed to do so that fact that they DID so knowing the results and consequences and knowing their name would be on the product speaks more to their character than anything if true. They were the experts and had their name on it. There is no strawman here. There is simple what we know and what we do not. I think it likely as Conrad Turner stated, PB asked ND to take a route and without the proper experience did not understand what the outcome and final destination would be.

I note that ND has largely washed their hands of RRT. There is no reference of it on their website, they're not promoting the models or any of that.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
SDE minis are PVC, not hard styrene, so that helps get the part count down because minor undercuts are possible.

As other companies demonstrate time and again (for example, Dreamforge, to name a company that also started doing plastic miniatures from a KS and without any previous work on the field), you can do a lot more. It's just more expensive.

As for what does or doesn't allow a plastic sprue... just go take a look at a Gunpla kit sometime, and get back to us then

I backed Mark's DreamForge Leviathan Crusader KS, and built that kit. It is a LOT of pieces of hard styrene with ZERO undercuts.

I have built Master Grade GunPla, and again, ZERO undercuts (aside from the new kits using slide molds, which would not have helped here). All of those kits are 2-part legs and arms for the same issue with undercuts that we see here with with the Valkyrie kits.

It would appear to me that you using rather poor examples, as both of them simply reinforce that Palladium / ND did the correct thing in terms of part separation for the models, based on the physical texture and detailing required to accurately reproduce the RoboTech Macross designs.

I'm curious, do you even know what an undercut is? Maybe you should Google it and educate yourself.

I'm curious, did I say anything about undercuts, there?

As other companies demonstrate time and again (for example, Dreamforge, to name a company that also started doing plastic miniatures from a KS and without any previous work on the field), you can do a lot more. It's just more expensive.

As for what does or doesn't allow a plastic sprue... just go take a look at a Gunpla kit sometime, and get back to us then

Oh, look, no, I did not. I said that you can do much more with plastic injection machinery than what PB has done, and gave 2 examples of other companies that do indeed do more with them. If only choosing better where to do your cuts. Or in the case of Bandai, using multiple types of plastic in the same mold sprue (and yes, with undercuts, better take a look at the Real and Perfect Grades).

Maybe you should read before you answer.

Anyone arguing that the parts arrangement on these models was necessary is uneducated on the subject. These mecha have been done multiple times by other makes that are actually more detailed and not split down then middle in the fashion we see in RRT.

OK, whatever. It's obvious that you don't understand why the kits are they way that they are, based on the technology and materials involved. It's also clear that you don't bother to educate yourself.

As for your examples, neither of them would have done any better than ND / PB with the HG-approved designs. In the case of Bandai / Hasegawa / others, they use the same basic part separations for their Macross kits that ND does, except that they tend to have even more parts per kit because they go bigger with more detail:


A 1/60 PG kit stands roughly a foot tall, not an inch and a half; that PG kit also costs a lot more than a buck fifty. If you were willing to pay 3 figures per model, instead of 3 bucks, you bet you'd get fancier mold technology. $150-$350 per PG model kit is 100x the price of a RRT kit. If that's your argument, you're failing pretty hard. It's like wondering why your ratty old Honda doesn't compare with a Rolls Royce built to spec. The scale and price differential is so far off, it's a pointless apples-to-oranges comparison.
1/60 PG RX-0 Unicorn Gundam sprues - one multi-gate sprue, out of 100s of parts

The only low parts count items from Japan are the PVC Gashapon, which have the same shrinkage & softness as SPM's SDE models. Or things that deliberately sacrifice detail (which requires different approvals).

You should stop now. I'm stopping with you on this topic.

Who said anything about Japan? Resin 1/285th garage kits exist of these designs made right here in the USA with under half the overall parts count that have more detail than any of the models released for RRT.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://imgur.com/o49PLpK

Proof!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, whatever. It's obvious that you don't understand why the kits are they way that they are, based on the technology and materials involved. It's also clear that you don't bother to educate yourself.

Yes, John, it's clearly that.

As for your examples, neither of them would have done any better than ND / PB with the HG-approved designs. In the case of Bandai / Hasegawa / others, they use the same basic part separations for their Macross kits that ND does, except that they tend to have even more parts per kit because they go bigger with more detail:

You... do realize that's a kit from the 80s, don't you. Maybe you'd want to at least take a look at a Macross kit made this century instead of toting around that picture each and every time.

And even in that, prehistorical kit, you're wrong. Take a look at the legs: instead of bisecting it by the fething middle of the front over all its lenght, they do it along one of the "lines" that go down the leg, so as to hide it completely without needing any work whatsoever. Why, pray tell, do you think that's so technically challenging? There's also, of course, the little fact that being a 1/60 kit, the seams are not as noticeable than what they naturally are when the kit is... dunno, about 12 times smaller?

A 1/60 PG kit stands roughly a foot tall, not an inch and a half; that PG kit also costs a lot more than a buck fifty. If you were willing to pay 3 figures per model, instead of 3 bucks, you bet you'd get fancier mold technology. $150-$350 per PG model kit is 100x the price of a RRT kit. If that's your argument, you're failing pretty hard. It's like wondering why your ratty old Honda doesn't compare with a Rolls Royce built to spec. The scale and price differential is so far off, it's a pointless apples-to-oranges comparison.

Which is why I didn't. You seem to do it every time, though. Only thing I compared was sprue technology/seam placement/cutting decisions. But please, continue answering questions nobody has asked.

One thing, though, regarding your cost strawman. A Real Grade kit goes for 25 bucks, which yes, it is still about three times as much as a RRT mini (the retail price of a RRT box is 33 bucks, so one mini goes for about $8,25, not a buck fifty. That's actually more expensive than many GW minis)... but it's bigger than the Monster, which in turn costs more (40 bucks on KS money, I expect it will go for about 60 on retail). So yeah, clearly a worse choice. Clearly.

The only low parts count items from Japan are the PVC Gashapon, which have the same shrinkage & softness as SPM's SDE models. Or things that deliberately sacrifice detail (which requires different approvals).

Maybe that's because the Gashapons are the only ones actually meant to play with, wheres the others are display kits for enthusiasts? You do get to do this with them, though:




That's not a toy. That's a 1/72 fully transformable VF-1 plastic kit, released for the 30th anniversary of Macross. That doesn't require glue, or painting whatsoever (that said, these kits are kinda bad when compared with the Real Grades).

Still not sure what you think you're answering to, though.

You should stop now. I'm stopping with you on this topic.

Yes, please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swabby wrote:
Who said anything about Japan? Resin 1/285th garage kits exist of these designs made right here in the USA with under half the overall parts count that have more detail than any of the models released for RRT.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://imgur.com/o49PLpK

Proof!

Wow. Love those feet.

So we are into the blame game.

So sometime around when the 3D models were done and they were about to submit them for tooling something bad happened.
Best I could tell there was some compatibility issue with that supplier where the 3D models could not be read.

Now ND did the models, I would have figured they would have sourced the die manufacturer... but there was issues.
Now going into conjecture, one would think PB had a hand in trying to find a die maker and may have "suggested" using them.
It was also around that time that ND went dark and started backing away.

One would think ND would have continued unless PB decided to go in a direction that would be at odds with ND.
Again, we may never know the truth but when a "partnership" dissolves and prior work is not acknowledged, it is typically because it was hijacked into something the creator did not agree with.

Jan 9th 2014 update was rather telling:
As you know, Palladium is completely new to the wargame business. That’s why we joined forces with the talented gents at Ninja Division – the combined talents of Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios. Palladium is trusting their knowledge and expertise in all aspects of sculpting, mold making, sprue breakdowns and manufacturing. Like you, we assume they are doing everything in their power to make this the best product possible and to get Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to market as quickly as possible.

Jan 20th 2014
Release in two waves announced.

March 20, 2014
http://handcannononline.com/blog/2014/03/20/soda-pop-miniatures-interview-deke-john/
Q: Now aside from Relic Knights you also started up Ninja Division and teamed up with Palladium Books to produce Robotech RPG Tactics. How is that one coming along?
A: Robotech is coming along well, the sculpts have finally all been approved by Palladium and Harmony Gold and tooling has begun. It won’t be too much longer and everyone will saving the Earth from the Zentraedi.
Q: Do you have any plans for organized play for this game as well?
Palladium Books is the publisher for Robotech RPG Tactics so they will be managing any organized play they want to do for the system. Ninja Division was hired to do the sculpting, help design the game, and run the initial Kickstarter for them.

May 1st 2014
Re-iterated the ND throw under the bus posting.

June 2014
RRT goes into production.

July 26 2014
"My deep and heartfelt thank you to our Kickstarter backers for voting to let us take Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to sell at Gen Con. The overwhelming majority (78% who actually voted) voted yes. Thank you for your understanding and kindness. You and your support are very appreciated." = KS

Aug 2014
Wave Two Update: In other news, things have been moving with Wave Two. We had a two hour conference call with Ninja Kai on Tuesday, going over the spec sheet and nailing down some details, and yesterday we got a bunch of renders and tentative sprue layouts. We've begun going over those and making notes for corrections. I’ll try to get some images posted in the next week, but no promises; I’m swamped with pre-convention stuff.

Sept 2014
Ninja John and Wayne visit China and seeing stuff shipped off.

October 2014
Majority of RRT ships in NA.

Jan 13 2015
Status of Wave Two Items: Wave Two is coming in 2015. We have not speculated as to when, because we get torn apart when we have to push back release dates. When we feel more comfortable with a projected release schedule, you will be the first to know. It will be this year. I can tell you that three weeks ago, Jeff Burke and I sent China changes and corrections to many of the 3D engineering models used for mold making and we are waiting for a progress report from them. I will try to post images of the 3D renders here as they are finalized and approved.

Jan 17 2015
Wave Two Update: We got some of the revised 3D renders back from the engineers in China this week, and it looks like most of our issues with the Gnerl, Ghost, Lancer, and Glaug-Eldare were fixed. Some progress was also made on the Jotun Armored Valkyrie, but it looks like a few things haven’t been addressed yet. Jeff and I will be combing over these in the next few days, and if we determine they’re good to go, the engineers can finalize mold layouts, I’ll post some images of the renders, and hopefully they’ll make and send us some prototypes.

Feb 10 2015
Final confirm of slow boat to EU and Aus.

So around Sept 2014 is the last we hear after Ninja Division, I suspect Wayne's visit was the official hand-off.
Here is the place, the contacts and ND is outta here.

What a trip down memory lane, just makes me more angry... hehe in a mixed insane way.