Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Designers do not have full control over the final product. I'm not sure why Mike thinks they do but in reality, almost every single designer or artistic type I've met has had to account and explain their designs to whoever they're trying to sell the design to. It's not like they have unfettered access to design whatever they want.

Personal anecdote wise, I've dealt with many furniture designers who my upper management has basically said 'you need to change this and that' before approving their designs. My friend who's in the ad industry complains all the time about suits meddling with their creative design, saying stuff like you need the logo in there, you need them to repeat the jingle X times etc.

No way, Sining.

Million dollar projects are just an open license for the creative types to do whatever they want. You never have studio or executive meddling at those kinds of dollar levels.

*cough* Blade Runner (theatrical) *cough*

No amount of white knighting from the Palladium apologists will change the fact that the models were mediocre at best. And they did not HAVE to be the way they are, as far as breakdown/detail levels.

Whose fault is only relevant as a post mortem at this point - the game is DOA already. I have two local stores. One decided not to stock at all. The other got two starters before Xmas. They sold one and the other is getting dusty now. No restock, and never carried any of the expansion boxes. Why should they, when the game has spent lengthy amounts of time on the internet at 50%+ off? Anybody that wanted it could have gotten almost as good a deal as a 'backer', or better, but for a few exclusives.

Robotech RPG Tactics was a very successful kickstarter for a miniature game. There were more than 5,000 backers. Thus there potentially is a player base. I wonder how spread out the backers are? I would think that there are enough backers that there would happen to be concentrations in various areas.

The fact that it was a successful kickstarter certainly makes me expect that retails stores will shy away from it. This is all the more true because of the fact that it has a small range of items for sale. Thus, we cannot expect help from the LGS to grow the game. That duty is now left to the kickstarter backers, and Palladium. Sadly, many of the backers seem to think their time is better spent bad mouthing the game.

 spaceelf wrote:
Robotech RPG Tactics was a very successful kickstarter for a miniature game. There were more than 5,000 backers. Thus there potentially is a player base. I wonder how spread out the backers are? I would think that there are enough backers that there would happen to be concentrations in various areas.

I know of another one in my country. He lives about 600km from where I am, though right now is wuite fed up and looking to sell his pledge.

That said, there's a couple of friends looking to buy it, so there's that.

Spaceelf are you a backer? This game has been one fumble after another from the very beginning.

Those 5000 backers are spread out all over the world. They wont carry the game without a major influx of interest from non backers. The game does not make that easy.

I would wager that a very large portion of those 5k backers that have actually recieved it have yet to actually assemble the game.

Spaceelf wrote:*snip*

Clearly someone hasn't read the thread. :-P

Though at over 300 pages, admittedly that's a bit of a journey.

Between the backer's locations and Mike's map, the vaaaaast majority of the backers and English speaking playerbase are found in the US, but (unsurprisingly) this still means they are pretty broadly spread out.

I've definitely heard some store owners being unhappy with Kickstarters, but frankly that's often short sighted. Yes, those can be seen as 'tons of consumers getting a massive deal and thus aren't buying from them', but A) those backers are how the product was created in the first place, and B) ideally a popular enough product is going to draw in their friends and family and acquaintances, such that one backer could lead to several (if not dozens) of other consumers eventually.

And frankly, no, growing the game does not fall on 'the backers', it falls on the community, self selecting as it is, and on Palladium. One of which has a vested interest in having opponents, and the other has a financial benefit from it growing. As a backer who has come to give less and less of a gak, I've been happy to share my views on the product (not terribly favorable) and might one day get a game in if any of my other friends can find a feth to give about actually playing it.

Characterizing it as some sort of unwarranted hit piece is to ignore the last 2 *years* of shenanigans and assume that the figures are fine as it is, which is a highly subjective stance to take.

 spaceelf wrote:
<snip>Sadly, many of the backers seem to think their time is better spent bad mouthing the game.

I have been highly motivated to get a force together to play the darn thing.
Getting it out for others to see and play is probably the only way to get the unsold box of the game at my FLGS picked up.
I now have completed an assembled force since I received my game just before Christmas.
I have made a 300 point force for both sides, 30 Zent models (2 scout and 1 battle group and 4 missile pods) and 28 UEDF models (2 Valk and 1Tom. Destroid squadron). (I had done all the destroids so an extra 12 were done).
At 20 minutes per model (about) that is around 19 odd hours of assembly time not allowing for conversions or anything fancy.
I have not even started painting yet!
This is not time for a casual gamer to take lightly or an easy way to showcase the game with any degree of speed.

In a way, Wave 2 may be the true launch of the game since we would have time to get the core game ready to go and can piggy-back with the fancy new models release.

I am so sorely tempted to bad-mouth at every turn because the game has appeared so incredibly inaccessible with PB being an unintentional PR nightmare and ND who had a clue, pretending they were never involved: it really does fall on us as the fans to make it work... lord help us.

The models look good when done.
The plastic is good and hard, I have high hopes of their survival during game play.
The fancy cards are nice and good for reference (I will still piece together something a little more coherent though...).
The core game box has all the right things for some games "out of the box" and looks rather pretty.
The game rules are serviceable and makes for fast deadly games.

In the end, I got mostly a game I want.
I have not quite had the value of my money compared to retail due to Wave 2 stuff in limbo but we got the game didn't we?

So, I am trying to present the game at our local big tabletop gaming thing and it is not helpful for me to go into it feeling all bi-polar about it. The name is to have fun, I just wish people could get the game without giving money to PB...

Forar is the only person I know of at this moment within an hours drive who has the game.
I hope in the coming months as others complete their models they will surface to be found.

<chant> I have the game I wanted... how I got it, how long I waited, who made it, what remains to be made, just try to ignore that, la, la, la, la...

 spaceelf wrote:
Sadly, many of the backers seem to think their time is better spent bad mouthing the game.

No, that's not true.

Many of the backers, for a long time, had literally nothing to do related to the game other than express frustration at the process. IIRC it was more than a year late delivering?
Should a delay have been expected? Sure - their delivery dates, especially the initial October one, were basically impossible to meet. The problem is PB never came out and said, "Yeah, we screwed up giving that date. Here's a more realistic one."
They blamed everyone else, every time.

The radio silence on Wave 2 is extremely frustrating. Has anyone gotten a response after emailing them a change of address? I am only getting stuff from Wave 2 so it's kind of important that they update my address... and I've emailed them. 3 times. No response.

rigeld2 wrote:
Many of the backers, for a long time, had literally nothing to do related to the game other than express frustration at the process. IIRC it was more than a year late delivering?

A year and 3 months, so far, and counting. I've only had anything else to do with the game because I've bought a box of stuff.

I was surprised with the cards, though. Much better than I thought they would be, even the tiny teeny ones ^^

 spaceelf wrote:
Robotech RPG Tactics was a very successful kickstarter for a miniature game. There were more than 5,000 backers. Thus there potentially is a player base.

The fact that it was a successful kickstarter certainly makes me expect that retails stores will shy away from it.

Thus, we cannot expect help from the LGS to grow the game. That duty is now left to the kickstarter backers, and Palladium.

Sadly, many of the backers seem to think their time is better spent bad mouthing the game.

RTT has a decent base, but it sold based on nostalgia, and a lot of backers bought enough that they won't need to buy much more.

Retail will see some sales, again, for the nostalgia factor.

Growing the game is based on playabilty, and I'm not sure that Palladium has done a great job there. GW is playable, so it does OK, despite GW.

Negative word of mouth is the biggest problem with growing the game.

With more than 5000 customers, a small number of vocal complainers doesn't mean everyone is unhappy.

What measure of success are you using for this game that has been out for less than 6 months?

It is a niche game in a niche hobby. A game of giant mecha fighting based on a cartoon from 30 years ago.

The tired comparison to GW or Privateer of every game system that gets released is absolutely meaningless. There are many "boutique" games out there that don't need booming sales, just enough to keep companies happy to continue production/expansion and have happy players. It is the growing trend of the hobby.

Does Palladium consider it a success? After Wave 2 will they look to continue producing more? That's what matters, rather than how well does it compare to sales of entrenched game systems that have been around for years or even decades.

Declarations of both success and failure are indeed premature.

A lot of data will be localized and anecdotal; individual shops/groups, and I don't think Palladium is in the habit of releasing sales stats, so I doubt we'll have anything remotely concrete for a long time to come, if ever.

I mean, utter failure? PB closes its doors. Utter success? They skip Kickstarter for wave 2 and 3 and just pay up front and tuck a big wad of cash in the factory manager's shirt pocket and tell them to get to work on Rifts Tactics too, and then drive up a dumptruck with more money to cover the next century of production.

Reality will obviously fall somewhere in the middle.

If nothing else, in terms of community engagement and official support, seeing how they handle the next two Adepticons and Gencons will probably at least give us an idea.

rigeld2 wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:
Sadly, many of the backers seem to think their time is better spent bad mouthing the game.

No, that's not true.

Many of the backers, for a long time, had literally nothing to do related to the game other than express frustration at the process. IIRC it was more than a year late delivering?
Should a delay have been expected? Sure - their delivery dates, especially the initial October one, were basically impossible to meet. The problem is PB never came out and said, "Yeah, we screwed up giving that date. Here's a more realistic one."
They blamed everyone else, every time.

The radio silence on Wave 2 is extremely frustrating. Has anyone gotten a response after emailing them a change of address? I am only getting stuff from Wave 2 so it's kind of important that they update my address... and I've emailed them. 3 times. No response.

European Backer here. I emailed them to change my address recently & they responded within 24 hours to acknowledge the change.

rigeld2 wrote:
European Backer here. I emailed them to change my address recently & they responded within 24 hours to acknowledge the change.

I changed it a couple of months ago, and they answered me quite promptly, too.

Skorne wrote:
European Backer here. I emailed them to change my address recently & they responded within 24 hours to acknowledge the change.

Yes, because your communication did not involve "Wave 2" which is under a communication black-out.
Or, they feel some guilt about you guys out there and are a bit more responsive.

I am not a backer, so my criticisms may be unfounded. I was aware that it was more than a year late. However, if I had money riding on it, and was interested enough to back it, I probably would try to push the game.

Although I am not a backer, I do own the game. I special ordered it from my FLGS when I heard that it came out. There are a handful of folks around that have it as well. (I usually do not back kickstarters. Most of the companies that create them are just using backers as a loan. Given what I have seen from delays and bad sculpts (mantic men at arms) I have no interest in kickstarters. I was sorely tempted with AVP. I am glad that I did not get in on that.)

 spaceelf wrote:
I am not a backer, so my criticisms may be unfounded. I was aware that it was more than a year late. However, if I had money riding on it, and was interested enough to back it, I probably would try to push the game.

Although I am not a backer, I do own the game. I special ordered it from my FLGS when I heard that it came out. There are a handful of folks around that have it as well. (I usually do not back kickstarters. Most of the companies that create them are just using backers as a loan. Given what I have seen from delays and bad sculpts (mantic men at arms) I have no interest in kickstarters. I was sorely tempted with AVP. I am glad that I did not get in on that.)

So you, as a non backer, allready have the game at hand? I, as a backer, am still waiting for mine to arrive.
Yeah i should push the game, so that maybe someday i will see wave 2, as i don´t believe they have the funds anymore to produce wave 2. i guess they don´t even have the money to ship to us ROW backers.

Their empty promises is what pisses me off.
Hey we will post pictures maybe next week..... months later ..... nothing.

Their copy and paste updates are anoying, even their whining about their long work days.
Hell if they were really working that hard, their games would allready be finished last decade. And the packages would have been shipped in no time.
But maybe they are working out of their nursing home, so speed is relative.

I'm really sick and fething tired of people who bought the game at retail complaining about backers complaining and being negative.
I still don't have mine, but it's fething wonderful you could buy your copy, im so fething overjoyed I paid upfront so you could decide kickstarters aren't worth the risk and buy it at retail. In fact im exploding with fething delight.
For feths Sake.

Joyboozer, man, seriously...

Don't hold back.

Tell us how you really feel.

*brofist*

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Is there a sticker or something that we can use dry erase on? I think if I could find something that works with dry erase markers to stick on the little stand up portion of the base, I could write a designation on each, and change as necessary.

The advice on a different forum for a similar problem was:

Get some gloss enamel paint and paint a square on the back on all of you bases and use a dry erase marker to out dots of different color to signify which group they go to.

Adjustable to different lists.

So gloss enamel on the base, or on the edges of the base, or whatever; and that gives you a surface you can use dry erase marker on.

 spaceelf wrote:
I am not a backer, so my criticisms may be unfounded. I was aware that it was more than a year late. However, if I had money riding on it, and was interested enough to back it, I probably would try to push the game. Although I am not a backer, I do own the game. I special ordered it from my FLGS when I heard that it came out. There are a handful of folks around that have it as well. (I usually do not back kickstarters. Most of the companies that create them are just using backers as a loan. Given what I have seen from delays and bad sculpts (mantic men at arms) I have no interest in kickstarters. I was sorely tempted with AVP. I am glad that I did not get in on that.)

If this was not intentional trolling it is rather... impressive.
I suppose we can surmise you kinda felt ok enough to buy the retail game since there was nothing better to do at the time.

Oddly enough PB sucks just enough, that if they were not backed on this I could guarantee you would not have been able to buy the game: your welcome from 5000 other suckers just like me.

I would generally agree that many kickstarters are just not worth the risk to back.
In this case it was coming from these turkeys or not at all, ever.
One could say Steve Jackson sort-of sucked too but product came out, so there is varying degrees of success.

I would suggest whatever that criticism you were trying to make: be more clear and possibly show some level of commitment: it involves an inherent form of risk you seem rather adverse to.

I thought his criticism was backers suck, why are you guys all complaining about the game that I was able to buy from the store with full knowledge of what the figures would look like and with reviews already online.

GHQ Extended 6mm Conventional minis for Robotech sale till March 2nd!

OK, we just extended the Futuretech15 discount code. It now expires on March 2nd. Just order over $50 worth of merchandise, use the Futuretech15 code, and you will get 15% off on your entire order! Spread the word! We want to see how many people are interested in GHQ in the Robotech world!

GHQ SALE! 15% Off!
Use Code: Futuretech15

http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/ghq-military-models.html

I think it is hilarious that GHQ has more sense and motivation to capitalize off RRT than palladium books.

Who's GHQ? Isn't a 15% code pretty low in the world of online retailers?

Sining wrote:
I thought his criticism was backers suck, why are you guys all complaining about the game that I was able to buy from the store with full knowledge of what the figures would look like and with reviews already online.

Either that backers suck or that they are suckers. Can't really decide which.

Sining wrote:
Who's GHQ? Isn't a 15% code pretty low in the world of online retailers?

It's not for RRT minis, it's for 6mm armor and vehicles that fit RRTs scale.

15% off seems OK to me!

 Albertorius wrote:

Sining wrote:
I thought his criticism was backers suck, why are you guys all complaining about the game that I was able to buy from the store with full knowledge of what the figures would look like and with reviews already online.

Either that backers suck or that they are suckers. Can't really decide which.

Hehe, thanks for not holding back on the clarification both of you, it is oddly therapeutic.
I found it rather funny he could not quite bring himself to say "I think you are all fools for backing a kickstarter." but said everything else around it.

Nothing more irritating than taking a hit for the team and the ungrateful wretches post smug "LOL! I got it retail! What is your issue! You whiners!" messages (do not even look at the "international" backers, they may have to resort to hooliganism soon...).

Like with anything, it is rather sad when an interesting system for getting garage inventor's ideas into reality gets abused enough that it is considered broken.
I find myself thinking there are few things I would want to back in the future.
I really hope the Conan kickstarter goes well, it would be nice to see such a nice fit for gaming be a success story.
<edit> So it is around that time to give a Wave 2 update. Yup. Anyyy time now...