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 Albertorius wrote:
The Crisis of Treachery® was announced on April 19, 2006. That's a whole nine years ago. And the great KS announced on May 7, 2007 that they had covered most of their damages. I think they should probably stop relying on that by now.

So they went through the couch cushions and recovered twice as much capital? I jest...

It was really more a jab at how everything is always someone else's fault down PB Way.

 Krinsath wrote:
Now, a manufacturer can put into their sales contracts that their distributors are not allowed to sell to overseas entities, but that isn't particularly realistic in stopping things from heading over the pond and it really just nudges the price up a bit higher as it moves through an extra set of (non-contractually bound) hands. Sure, if a company knows Distributor X was doing that they could take action, but PB isn't in the position of GW or MtG to dictate. Those latter two literally keep game stores open and that's a huge amount of economic clout where angering the manufacturer could mean a heavy hit to your bottom line. PB and RTT? Likely a rounding error on most balance sheets, so they aren't really going to be in a position where they can do much more than rail against cruel market fortunes that have undermined them thusly.

Which brought me to my speculation question, that we're not going to get from the people who know. Did they know they had no control, and lie. Or did they not understand what appear to be fairly basic legal concepts*, and state something categorically wrong? Because the promise was made, and seems to be unenforceable from the start. So, deceitful or incompetent?

* Yes, I know I wasn't clear on it. But then again, I'm not a supply side business who SHOULD know. I don't know jack about business tax either. Sure as hell hope someone over at PBHQ does.

 Krinsath wrote:
Well, they could have not sold the product until they got their act together on shipping, but I have a sinking suspicion that financially that's not really an option owing to their extant contracts and finances. Anyone know how large of a print run they did for retail and where the money for that came from? I'm guessing a company that needs crowdfunding to produce books years late isn't exactly in the best financial health, especially after they've had to endure a Crisis of Treachery® and such. I'm not picking up an "evil" vibe from most of the stuff PB does; most of it is explainable as being comically short-sighted and not thinking things through all the way (which is not a trait PB is unique in possessing).

I think the initial retail print run was estimated in the 50-65% range of the Kickstarter launch, based on the number of containers, the number specifically for backers, and the estimated quantity of material per container. So 3-4K boxes and probably a similar number of the six expansions. There's never been even an alluded to "official" number.

And there's no way given their secrecy with all things business related, they're ever going to show where the money for Retail Wave 1 came from. Nor, would I honestly expect them to. Some speculate they used KS funds to do so, putting sales income back into it, but as long as they were doing that while financially backed (ie, using fluid funds to pay for it, but having actual funds that may have been tied up at the time, available should it have gone to hell), I don't really have that much of an issue. As long as they did remain fully solvent throughout.

As Albertorius said though, it's been 9 years since the whole CoT thing (and there's circumstantial evidence it wasn't even that bad financially, with significant portions of the loss being from Kevin's personal collections, rather than significant on-the-books fraud). If PB is still financially crippled, they've got bigger issues. It seems like you're more in the "They're incompetent" camp. And that's a reasonable position. But I wouldn't at all be surprised if they knew they couldn't live up to their initial promise "Backer before Retail/Distrib" (made with good intentions), faced a reality of the situation and revised it "Backer shipped before R/D", and then knowing it was impossible but refusing to admit they were wrong (which is also a trait PB isn't unique in, but one they're pretty proficient in), made up a revised "Backer receive before their local R/D", and then claiming moral outrage when the inevitable happened.

Either is entirely plausible. And that's what makes this so intriguing to me. So many consistently wrong choices, and I'm not sure if they're slick snake-oil salesmen, or so incompetent it's a wonder they can find the building each morning. Forar once speculated it resembles performance art, and I agree. Hell, seeing how this plays out is the only reason I'm still sticking around. If we could see behind the curtain, it probably wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting.

My apologies, I wasn't trying to imply that they were doing anything shady with the money, simply that IF they had spent a great deal on the retail run of the product that needed to be re-couped that it would be in the backer's interest that they break their "backers before retail" promise. Granted, you get there by making poor decisions, but poor choice != evil choices. I don't see where there's the animus required to call a company "bad"; "would-be-funny-if-it-wasn't-money" certainly and you can definitely make a case for "farcical" at this point, but the idea of malevolence that I've seen some comments hinting at is a bit much from my outsider's viewpoint.

It's more likely that Mr. KS has a good deal of vision, but with a very poor ability to know how to go from vision to product. This isn't uncommon (see also: Peter Molyneux in the video game industry) and in fact I'd say that the person who can see where to go AND how to get there is by far rarer in any walk of life. The problem is that PB has devolved into a situation where because he has the vision, he MUST be the one to bring it about. Everyone else keeps messing it up, after all. However, this does not encourage people to speak out against a bad idea, and all reports are that he takes that sort of pushback very badly.

While that's a common theme at most companies that few people want to stand up to the boss, it's not a good thing. If you're the boss and you don't have an employee coming in to tell you that you're doing something wrong on a somewhat regular basis, you have a bad situation on your hands. Either your employees don't trust you enough to communicate (meaning you're a bad boss), or your employees have no idea what they're doing either (meaning they're incompetent). Nobody gets everything right, and it's important to have people who tell you when you're being stupid because it happens to all of us. I don't think there is such a person at PB, and every mis-step made along the way in this KS seems to illustrate that point. KS needs to learn to have someone close to operations tell him he's an idiot when he's being one, and have the humility to honestly examine the feedback for improvement instead of sneering and pushing forward (which seems to be his default reaction).

At this stage I'm pretty sure we'll see pigs flying over snowdrifts in hell before that comes about and the horses have found a new life for themselves far away from the barn that would lock up, but that really seems to be the missing ingredient that would have turned things around; just that voice of someone in touch with reality. You don't want your visionaries TOO grounded (or their visions are kind of "meh" after all), but someone has to figure out how to build up to that castle in the sky or else you end up with a rickety structure that risks collapsing on itself all the time...

I think that's enough metaphors for one post though.

For those with some Conventional stuff and who are interested. This is V1.0....

Ok so there are in a way 3 groups. Global War tech, Post-Crash upgrades of Conventional Stuff and New Stuff

Global War stuff get 2-3 MDC increase from "Upgrades" with the UEDF Technology BUT plan is to make "New" Designs, not upgrades like on an LAV to have an increase of 3-4 over their Pre-Crash technologies....This helps bridge the gap between new and older tech. Cards with a Nuke in the top left are Global War era and the ones with the RDF and Malcontent Symbols are ones upgraded or made using tech from the SDF-1. Infantry take 1 point per 2 troopers before the SDF-1 and 1 each after.

Still a WIP so feel free to make suggestions or ask if you want something added.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
PB isn't GW, which controls distribution to prevent global resale. PB doesn't have the same market share as GW's 40k.

Maybe not. But I do know MtG (yes, another behemoth) enforces (for some definition of enforce) street dates.

So, I guess my point is, that after they broke the initial promise (backers before retail), and unilaterally changed it to "backers in country X before retailers in country X", they didn't even stop to consider that it was completely unenforceable, and are now bemoaning the fact that there's apparently nothing illegal, and not even really anything immoral about US distributors doing this, from the distributor's perspective. Either that, or as per the Update, not even recognizing that it's happening.

So, should this be seen as a weakness of credibility (they knew it was never enforceable, but said it anyway), or a weakness of competency (they don't have the legal framework to enforce it, but think they did)? Cause no amount of shifting goalposts changes the fact that there are significant reports of RRT being offered for sale in retail stores in countries that aren't "supposed" to have it.

PB a tiny little monkey, not a 100-ton King Kong like Hasbro WotC is. Hasbro WotC makes the 800-lb GW gorilla look insignificant. Cross WotC, and you're basically done as a store or distributor. PB needs any sales they can get.

PB clarifying things to be on a country or region basis is pretty reasonable - they probably hadn't thought out all of the details of global trade. If you think that they had the international details figured out at the time of the KS, I think that the reality of events to date pretty clearly and conclusively prove you wrong in pretty much every way possible.

There is nothing wrong with grey market sales. Usually, it's not worth the extra hit in distribution cost and effort (like GW Oz). The fact that there are ROW stores who are importing RRT via grey market is a good sign for the game - it suggests there is additional, immediate ROW demand that would not have been satisfied by the regular distribution.

And yet they keep talking like they have an iron clad hand on distribution. Even going so far as saying that people should contact them about stores selling it in 'unreleased' areas.

They're trying to have their cake and eat it to.

And as has been noted, it is particularly hilarious to think that PB would yell at stores for selling their stuff. A company that has apparently struggled to sell stuff for years now.

Oh yay, they have a hit! Oh no, stop selling that hit game outside of North America!

Yeah, sure, right, I'll bet they're all broken up that people are buying their gak.

This last little announcement from PB is rather distressing.

How can Kevin write with such excitement and mention a multitude of things and give zero specifics?
It is an art form above the pale.

Yes, I would like to see many other things to flesh-out the Robotech world but dear lord show that you are finishing off what was originally agreed to be done!
Folks, they have been distracted by something shiny again! Or worse, think that we can be distracted.

This is one of the few forums where you talk about feelings or historical posts, like the company itself, PB has nothing to write about.

 Forar wrote:
And yet they keep talking like they have an iron clad hand on distribution. Even going so far as saying that people should contact them about stores selling it in 'unreleased' areas.

I'm sure PB will have some very sternly-worded letters sent to those stores. Very stern. Signed by Kevin himself. You can bet on it.

HEY GUYS STOP SELLING STUFF YOU'RE BREAKING STREET DATE thank you for selling our stuff don't stop REALLY YOU MUST STOP THIS OR ELSE WE'LL BE VERY CROSS you have no idea how much we appreciate this, thank you with a Mega-Damage hug (2d4x10 damage +1d6 per level, range 3 feet plus 1 foot per level) TRULY WE CANNOT LET THIS STAND.

No italics?

I'm surprised there's no TMs in that letter

They had to go to 98% sterner wording so italics were eliminated.

Got Scum and Villainy stuff... no assembly required...
Sorry about the aside.

Applying adhesive sheet magnets to bases: 2" diameter exactly for RRT. Less sliding and heavier base = win.

But did Scum and Villainy have mouthwatering detail?

Mike, did Palladium steal all your work and try to use it as a distraction, promising to release it so we don't notice they're doing feth all?

Joyboozer wrote:
Mike, did Palladium steal all your work and try to use it as a distraction, promising to release it so we don't notice they're doing feth all?

Conventional Stuff?

If that is what you are referring to...no.....not at all. Some guys on my FB page use GHQ. GHQ sometimes gets notes/comments on their page and on their orders and had some for people wanting to use if for RRT. I started making some Conventional cards a ways back for fun. Had some requests and had done a bit more. A few told GHQ that they should contact me. I spoke to them and suggested the sale to gauge interest. They liked the idea and I posted it on my site. They sent me some goodies as a thank you. They then wanted help contacting PB so I gave them PB's office # and since then they have spoken. Obviously PB is interested in what I have done so far for conventional stuff and stats. That's about it.

So kinda like the malcontent dice?

Do they ever do any original thinking or do they simply ride coat tails for every idea?

Maybe rather than worrying about adding conventional units (which you can pretty much get anywhere) they should finish getting wave one out to the rest of the world and when that's done maybe get working on wave two?

Sining wrote:
So kinda like the malcontent dice?

Not at all....PB asked me not to do the dice....they wanted to make the $......GHQ asked me to put them into contact with PB and had already asked me how to integrate the two and I told them I'd be willing to make cards for whatever units they needed them for. Very different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stanman wrote:
Do they ever do any original thinking or do they simply ride coat tails for every idea?

Maybe rather than worrying about adding conventional units (which you can pretty much get anywhere) they should finish getting wave one out to the rest of the world and when that's done maybe get working on wave two?

GHQ approached them...remember that.

So kind of like what happened to Paulson?

Sining wrote:
But did Scum and Villainy have mouthwatering detail?

Yes, yes it does.
Not cheap that stuff but why do I feel that is ok?
Not quite same feeling looking at RRT stuff on market but the $12 battleoid sale was awesome, opposed to $24 at regular price or $33 at the PB site.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Sining wrote:
So kinda like the malcontent dice?

Not at all....PB asked me not to do the dice....they wanted to make the $.......

And yet they haven't said even one word about producing some Malcontent dice since they last talked to you. Somehow I get the feeling that if they ever get around to doing said dice they'll be "mouth watering" in their detail, much like the token, templates and dice that they entirely dropped the ball on.

Right now I'm completely convinced that they have absolutely no idea what they're doing and that they also get distracted by the shiny more than the crows in my area.

sqir666 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Sining wrote:
So kinda like the malcontent dice?

Not at all....PB asked me not to do the dice....they wanted to make the $.......

And yet they haven't said even one word about producing some Malcontent dice since they last talked to you. Somehow I get the feeling that if they ever get around to doing said dice they'll be "mouth watering" in their detail, much like the token, templates and dice that they entirely dropped the ball on.

Right now I'm completely convinced that they have absolutely no idea what they're doing and that they also get distracted by the shiny more than the crows in my area.

The dice is the thing, IF I did do them then they could not do them later unless I gave them the go ahead, which I would have done anyways, since I could say they are stepping on my IP. If I had called them Fist dice or something I might have been able to do them without worry. I did do a small batch just the same. I agree it's dumb but IP laws are not always smart.

 Mike1975 wrote:

sqir666 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Sining wrote:
So kinda like the malcontent dice?

Not at all....PB asked me not to do the dice....they wanted to make the $.......

And yet they haven't said even one word about producing some Malcontent dice since they last talked to you. Somehow I get the feeling that if they ever get around to doing said dice they'll be "mouth watering" in their detail, much like the token, templates and dice that they entirely dropped the ball on.

Right now I'm completely convinced that they have absolutely no idea what they're doing and that they also get distracted by the shiny more than the crows in my area.

The dice is the thing, IF I did do them then they could not do them later unless I gave them the go ahead, which I would have done anyways, since I could say they are stepping on my IP. If I had called them Fist dice or something I might have been able to do them without worry. I did do a small batch just the same. I agree it's dumb but IP laws are not always smart.

Another strange thing about IP laws here in the USA is that you can allow people to use your IP with licensing fees, at least if you actually hold the original IP copyright.

The latest update is out and it actually has wave two proof of life! It seems like a mixed bag in that they took some advice (one piece valkyrie heads) but completely ignored other comments (like molding the gnerl canopy separate so that it doesn't have an ugly seam down the center).

 warboss wrote:
The latest update is out and it actually has wave two proof of life! It seems like a mixed bag in that they took some advice (one piece valkyrie heads) but completely ignored other comments (like molding the gnerl canopy separate so that it doesn't have an ugly seam down the center).

...they've cut up the Ghost right along the fething sensors.

Glad to see an Update with SOME evidence. Though there's still a crapton of stuff that needs to be done for Wave 2 to be done (FPA/MPA/SValk/AValk/VEF/V1D/MAC2/YF4/ZInf/Rick/Roy/Khyron/Miriya) plus the resin components. But it's a good start, with promises of more.

Of course, that didn't stop them from delving into their usual wankery.

I've been promising Wave 2 updates and pictures for a while now, but it has taken me so long to start posting them, some have begun to express some doubts. I’m sorry about that; there’s no reason you guys should ever feel in the dark so much that you start to worry about whether we’re even working on this stuff. Well, we are.

And it's nice to see. If only you had the ability to allay those fears. Oh, you do. By not waiting six weeks to post what you promised would be a week. Seriously, they want to absolve themselves of responsibility for being the CAUSE of those concerns? Feth me.

ALL Wave Two pieces are either done or in active development. But pictures are worth more than words, so here you go.

Of course, "done". Is there any word that's been used so frequently that doesn't mean what we think it should mean? Does that mean the digital files are done? The sprue layouts are done? The test sprues are done? That it's ready for actual manufacture? Simply put, for something so simple and direct, is used in such a vague manner to be absolutely worthless. How many times was the rulebook, or any other component "done", only to find out no, it in fact, wasn't.

Regarding the actual components, mixed bag. As Warboss mentions, bisecting canopies and gunbarrels (Gnerls) is straight up dumb. Ironically, it'd be a much better model if the canopy and nose mount were seperate pieces. They fix things (cutting parts count) in all the wrong ways. I'm kinda hoping noone at PB notices the G-E's swoosh mount is a placeholder, and it gets molded like that. I don't have enough knowledge re the Lancer, but apparently they're taking liberties with that. And the Jotun, I'm curious if those arms going to be bisected, or not.

I'm glad they posted an Update, but as has been said quite a few times, they've got a long way to go before they should be given any benefit of the doubt.

Wow they really messed up the Lancer didn't they.

.. ok, what is that. Because a Lancer it ain't.

It must be a roflcopter

"Any resemblance between our model and an actual Lancer is purely coincidental"... did they mistakenly ask for a super deformed chibi version, or what?