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winterdyne wrote:
Wanna guess how much robotech stuff I saw at the largest wargaming show in Europe?

Not even a Robotech TM Dice TM Bag TM??!?!?!

winterdyne wrote:
Wanna guess how much robotech stuff I saw at the largest wargaming show in Europe?

Wow, it sold out before you saw it This is Great News

winterdyne wrote:
Wanna guess how much robotech stuff I saw at the largest wargaming show in Europe?

LOL. Here's the list of vendors at the show: http://www.salute.co.uk/files/salute2015traders.pdf

Almost all Brit traders, very few European ones. No GW, no Privateer Press, or really any other major miniatures game publisher other than Battlefront.

I don't recognize a single American company on that list unless it has a European branch (Old Glory), yet you are going to take to task some small American publisher with a single little game for not showing up?

I mean, let's criticize them for things that are worth criticizing them for. If you are looking for any excuse to complain about them, then you should take a step back.

Woah, there, Nelly! You're focusing laser fine on a single aspect/reading of his post and ignoring the wider point that he also apparently didn't see any retailers selling the stuff there nor any players running games there. Sure, it's just one person's experience and YMMV (maybe he missed a massive slew of Robotech selling like hotcakes in a nook of the vender hall or a huge participation game). Now you can poo-poo that first hand account away as those in the EU backers only just recently got their stuff 5 months later than the already 1 year late North American delivery but that's not much of a positive point for Palladium either. EU sellers had the game for many months and yet no one decided to do anything with it (either the sellers or potential players who didn't pledge) there either.


I don't know why you're taking it like someone calling your own child ugly but it's simply another point to consider in the eventual determination (still too early though) of whether the game is a success. We now have Adepticon and Salute and we have Origins and Gencon still upcoming. At that point, personally, I think we'll have enough as a community to see if this is a hit or a dud. At this point, IMO, it's still too early but we have early indicators though (including this one).

I found this Blog that I found pretty inspiring for my own feeble efforts....

http://robotechwargaming.blogspot.com/

The guy recreated the campaign and battles from the Bye-Bye Mars episodes in the show. His table is pretty cool.

http://rpgandtactics.blogspot.com.au/

This is another one that I found and linked in my own blog.

 warboss wrote:
Woah, there, Nelly! You're focusing laser fine on a single aspect/reading of his post and ignoring the wider point that he also apparently didn't see any retailers selling the stuff there nor any players running games there. Sure, it's just one person's experience and YMMV (maybe he missed a massive slew of Robotech selling like hotcakes in a nook of the vender hall or a huge participation game). Now you can poo-poo that first hand account away as those in the EU backers only just recently got their stuff 5 months later than the already 1 year late North American delivery but that's not much of a positive point for Palladium either. EU sellers had the game for many months and yet no one decided to do anything with it (either the sellers or potential players who didn't pledge) there either.


I don't know why you're taking it like someone calling your own child ugly but it's simply another point to consider in the eventual determination (still too early though) of whether the game is a success. We now have Adepticon and Salute and we have Origins and Gencon still upcoming. At that point, personally, I think we'll have enough as a community to see if this is a hit or a dud. At this point, IMO, it's still too early but we have early indicators though (including this one).

I'm not taking it personally. I am providing a counter point to the idea that Palladium or the game should have some presence there, it is a Brit-centric show that has mostly independently run games, small- or middle-sized companies from GB.
Here is the list of games and events: http://www.salute.co.uk/files/salute2015games.pdf
Where is X-Wing? Malifaux and Infinity's only presence is a single demo, one game of Warhammer, no Warmachine/Hordes. But let's critique that nobody did anything with Robotech...

The constant whining and criticism of Palladium becomes tiring. Especially when it gets into nit-picking from those who only want to complain and gripe and need to look for any excuse to take a swipe.
We backers have to wait and deal with a company that has no idea what it is doing regarding managing customer expectations or communication. It is frustrating. Complain about things that are actually worth complaining about.

 n815e wrote:

I'm not taking it personally. I am providing a counter point to the idea that Palladium or the game should have some presence there, it is a Brit-centric show that has mostly independently run games, small- or middle-sized companies from GB.
Here is the list of games and events: http://www.salute.co.uk/files/salute2015games.pdf
Where is X-Wing?

Um...



http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/634756.page

 n815e wrote:
Malifaux and Infinity's only presence is a single demo, one game of Warhammer, no Warmachine/Hordes. But let's critique that nobody did anything with Robotech...

The constant whining and criticism of Palladium becomes tiring. Especially when it gets into nit-picking from those who only want to complain and gripe and need to look for any excuse to take a swipe.
We backers have to wait and deal with a company that has no idea what it is doing regarding managing customer expectations or communication. It is frustrating. Complain about things that are actually worth complaining about.

You know what helps alleviate complaining? Getting your gak together as a company. That is infinitely more frustrating to me than the inevitable resulting complaining personally. As for nitpicking, Palladium is one inch off the ground low hanging fruit for taking a swipe. Every week they trim the bush a little bit lower to lessen the burden of finding stuff to criticize.

 n815e wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Woah, there, Nelly! You're focusing laser fine on a single aspect/reading of his post and ignoring the wider point that he also apparently didn't see any retailers selling the stuff there nor any players running games there. Sure, it's just one person's experience and YMMV (maybe he missed a massive slew of Robotech selling like hotcakes in a nook of the vender hall or a huge participation game). Now you can poo-poo that first hand account away as those in the EU backers only just recently got their stuff 5 months later than the already 1 year late North American delivery but that's not much of a positive point for Palladium either. EU sellers had the game for many months and yet no one decided to do anything with it (either the sellers or potential players who didn't pledge) there either.


I don't know why you're taking it like someone calling your own child ugly but it's simply another point to consider in the eventual determination (still too early though) of whether the game is a success. We now have Adepticon and Salute and we have Origins and Gencon still upcoming. At that point, personally, I think we'll have enough as a community to see if this is a hit or a dud. At this point, IMO, it's still too early but we have early indicators though (including this one).

I'm not taking it personally. I am providing a counter point to the idea that Palladium or the game should have some presence there, it is a Brit-centric show that has mostly independently run games, small- or middle-sized companies from GB.
Here is the list of games and events: http://www.salute.co.uk/files/salute2015games.pdf
Where is X-Wing? Malifaux and Infinity's only presence is a single demo, one game of Warhammer, no Warmachine/Hordes. But let's critique that nobody did anything with Robotech...

The constant whining and criticism of Palladium becomes tiring. Especially when it gets into nit-picking from those who only want to complain and gripe and need to look for any excuse to take a swipe.
We backers have to wait and deal with a company that has no idea what it is doing regarding managing customer expectations or communication. It is frustrating. Complain about things that are actually worth complaining about.

I don't think you understand the structure of Salute (this isn't a personal dig, it's an attempt at explanation) - most of the large games companies don't attend in person (GW, Privateer (although I think they do some community stuff like painting demos), Fantasy Flight, Wizkids etc etc), Battlefront is an exception, as is Forgeworld. What those companies all do have is support at the show from retailers carrying their product - Wayland Games, Troll Trader, Stafford Games (although I avoid them because of their owner's history) and many smaller retailers had product from all those publishers in huge amounts.

What Winterdyne was pointing out and I can support is that there was no Robotech available to buy from these retailers (none that I could see and I visited most stands and looked closely - not for Robotech, but just to see what was out there). It's not even necessarily a dig at Palladium - there might have been a lot of people looking to buy Robotech and retailers all missed an opportunity.

 n815e wrote:
The constant whining and criticism of Palladium becomes tiring. Especially when it gets into nit-picking from those who only want to complain and gripe and need to look for any excuse to take a swipe.
We backers have to wait and deal with a company that has no idea what it is doing regarding managing customer expectations or communication. It is frustrating. Complain about things that are actually worth complaining about.

While I don't disagree with you in principle, and I kind of agree with you in this specific situation (especially within the circumstances you provide), it's kind of a hard thing to balance. Because what you might find worth complaining about, others might not, and vice versa.

For example, I bet a significant majority of backers couldn't have given a flying toss about the EU/AU shipping woes, as they already had theirs. I think now that EU/AU have been shipped the majority increases for those who give a crap about RoW, for similar reasons. Some people thought the breakdown of the assembly of miniatures (ie, SpartanGate) were fine/acceptable. For me personally, it was a dealbreaker. The whole GenCon thing, and the handling of the vote, for me it was mostly comedy value at the time. For some, it was understood as a necessary act, for others it turned still interested fans into frothing madmen (madpersons?).

My point is, "You should only complain about stuff that matters to me, or that I think are important" is at least as problematic as complaining about every tiny issue. I agree it's mostly noise now. Hell, the KS Comments section is a barren hostile-laden wasteland. But that's because PB have forgotten Aristotle. "Nature abhors a vacuum". The criticisms aren't coming because PB continually put out well formed Updates in a reasonable timetable. The criticisms come become they aren't, and PB have lost any claim to benefit of the doubt. No, doing good Updates regularly won't quiet all criticism, but it COULD significantly alter the signal to noise ratio. I say could, because it may be too big a hole for them to dig themselves out of, at this point.

 warboss wrote:

 n815e wrote:

I'm not taking it personally. I am providing a counter point to the idea that Palladium or the game should have some presence there, it is a Brit-centric show that has mostly independently run games, small- or middle-sized companies from GB.
Here is the list of games and events: http://www.salute.co.uk/files/salute2015games.pdf
Where is X-Wing?

Um...



http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/634756.page

I suppose I would feel embarrassed if this were on their list of events/games.

Considering that you made a blanket statement limiting the presence of games at the entire event to the prereg list only when winterdyne was talking about the event in it's entirety in a strange attempt to refute his post, I'd say, yes, you should feel embarrassed when it took me all of 30 seconds to refute your go to example despite the goal post relocation you attempted. I anxiously await your post showing a cool Robotech game being played there. I'll throw you a bone and say that you don't have to have a Robotech cosplayer at the table out of the kindness of my heart. Also, just an FYI, complaining about complaining is still complaining.

We're all tired of the complaining. Hell, I don't go to the Robotech comments except the day of an update because of the Rick and Lola Bondage S&M room with the occasional Jaymz and Jorel sideshow it's turned into. The root problem though is that Palladium is giving us nothing other than a dice bag to do anything but complain about. They're the ones you should be concerned with, not your fellow fans that are still almost two years after paying still missing 2/3 of the sculpts we bought. The lack of a showing apparently by BOTH retailers and fans at the biggest tabletop gaming con in the EU indicates a lack of enthusiasm on both their parts and isn't a positive indicator (but obviously not a single deciding factor) in the long term health of the game.

In regards to 'providing counterpoints', my question is this; is this a situation where a 'devil's advocate' is really worth having?

Snark and mockery for comedic effect is present in spades, but on the rare time they do something worth actually talking about, it gets talked about. Credit is given when credit is due, however rare that might be.

Is it a public service? Does it do any good? Is it even worth bothering, given that the product line remains off of FRP's Top 20 list, thereby assuring its failure in the near future, what with FRP being such a strong representative of distribution and retail?

;-)

I get that some people tire of the negativity (feigned and genuine alike)... but if that's the case why bother keep coming back to the thread? It's not like anyone is being forced to read or participate, and going on a year and a half now it's not like that reputation is unknown.

Not that I'm saying anyone should stop. That'd be awfully hypocritical.

More a bit of commentary on the whole situation from above. If one wants models in progress, the occasional game pic/report and a primarily positive outlook on the game, Mike's page is right there.

But there've been enough bridges burned that I don't think this little cluster of curmudgeons is going to become anything resembling that anytime soon.

"Considering that you made a blanket statement limiting the presence of games at the entire event to the prereg list only when winterdyne was talking about the event in it's entirety in a strange attempt to refute his post, I'd say, yes, you should feel embarrassed when it took me all of 30 seconds to refute your go to example despite the goal post relocation you attempted. I anxiously await your post showing a cool Robotech game being played there. "

Sorry, I don't feel embarrassed. Your "gotcha" didn't get a whole lot, really.
The official con list of events/games didn't have it. It's hard to be embarrassed for not knowing of a game event that wasn't listed on the con's own website of games and events.

For "the biggest con" around the EU, Salute doesn't have a whole lot of the biggest games around represented at it.
Yet, Robotech not being there is somehow indicative of some negative point?

"We're all tired of the complaining."

I am tired of the Rick- and Jorel-style nit-picking.
There are actual good reasons to complain about how the company is handling this. Lack of communication, lack of progress, lack of support, lack of promotion or presence, lack of sticking to their word.

No presence at a British-centric con run by a local gaming club located where the product only recently arrived to backers for a game based on an American version of a Japanese cartoon from 30 years ago that has been out for less than six months and it is a con which is missing representation of the biggest names in the hobby? That tells us nothing about the Robotech.

But go ahead and tell us how this a failure of a small American publisher that makes a small, niche game.

Adepticon they had 8 people at their event and their booth was the only one stocking their product, and half their booth was RPG products. To be fair most booths were only featuring their own lines and there were only 3-4 booths with a more general assortment of products, those booths had 40k and warmachine and some bolt action stuff nobody outside of Palladium had any Robotech stuff. Vendors tend to bring the stuff that they expect to sell and it's usually a reflection of the customer demand at their homeshop, they likely don't have a serious Robotech player base so they stuck with the popular items they know they'll see sales with.

There's stuff that Palladium can do to grow their player base, but it's unlikely they'll put in the ground work and the game doesn't have much of a presence at the moment because it's reliant on outside volunteers and Palladium has no experience with promoting miniature games. Saga and most of the "underground" independent games were showing turnouts of around 30 players on average vs 8 for Robotech. Hopefully Robotech is a grower because at the moment it's not a shower.

::shrug::

The list that SLW put out is almost always incomplete; demos are run by numerous local clubs (and usually have a historical bent), but product presence is often shoe-horned onto retail stands etc.

There was (amongst lots of other stuff):

Buckets of Malifaux, including many really, really nice 'designed for Malifaux' terrain manufacturers.
Huge amounts of Infinity, both for sale in various places and in terrain specialists.
Huge amounts of Hawk Wargames (DZC, fleet battles etc).
Lots of Warmahordes. No demo games of that but many vendors doing a roaring trade.
Dozens of indie games (including Saga, and a new 4 player gladiator game that looked really interesting).
X-Wing aplenty, including a couple of demo games I saw. I walked away with a lot of X-wing stuff (scum faction, yay!).
Lots of representation of many EU manufacturers (Puppetswar, Micro Art Studios etc). I think a few of them were actually sharing booths...

I can't stress enough how big Salute is for the EU Wargames market. It is very much our Adepticon and GenCon rolled into one, with attendance way north of 10,000. The painting competition is dominated by the usual GDUK suspects (from all over Europe). The feel I get is that the event is moving up to take over from GW's more limiting event.

It's very much the place to get your product seen over here. If you make or intend to sell any sort of wargame miniature in the EU, you really do want presence of some sort. Otherwise the other shinies are what people will remember and buy.

I do know one thing, and just one thing, and it is of course anecdote and not evidence, but here it is anyway:

Since I've got my Showdown Wave 1 I've bought and assembled the following:

- A box of Eisenkern Stormtroopers
- A box of Skitarii troopers
- 8 Battletech metal reseen models
- A Deadzone core box
- About 600 points of assorted Infinity models
- A full Dark Eldar army (2 Raiders, 20 Warriors, 20 Wytches, 3 jetbikes, 5 Scourges, 5 Hellions, 5 Wracks, 1 Haemonculus, 2 Talos, 1 Venom, a couple of character conversions)

As for Robotech, I've assembled a grand total of 8 destroids, half a dozen battle pods, a Glaug, a recovery pod and 1 Valkyrie in the three modes, and I'm thoroughly fed up with them for the moment (by which I mean, the rest of the sprues are stored and I'll get to them whenever). Conversely, the above stuff has been a joy to assemble, and the quality is miles better. Yes, even the Deadzone restic stuff.

 n815e wrote:
"Considering that you made a blanket statement limiting the presence of games at the entire event to the prereg list only when winterdyne was talking about the event in it's entirety in a strange attempt to refute his post, I'd say, yes, you should feel embarrassed when it took me all of 30 seconds to refute your go to example despite the goal post relocation you attempted. I anxiously await your post showing a cool Robotech game being played there. "

Sorry, I don't feel embarrassed. Your "gotcha" didn't get a whole lot, really.
The official con list of events/games didn't have it. It's hard to be embarrassed for not knowing of a game event that wasn't listed on the con's own website of games and events.

For "the biggest con" around the EU, Salute doesn't have a whole lot of the biggest games around represented at it.
Yet, Robotech not being there is somehow indicative of some negative point?

"We're all tired of the complaining."

I am tired of the Rick- and Jorel-style nit-picking.
There are actual good reasons to complain about how the company is handling this. Lack of communication, lack of progress, lack of support, lack of promotion or presence, lack of sticking to their word.

No presence at a British-centric con run by a local gaming club located where the product only recently arrived to backers for a game based on an American version of a Japanese cartoon from 30 years ago that has been out for less than six months and it is a con which is missing representation of the biggest names in the hobby? That tells us nothing about the Robotech.

But go ahead and tell us how this a failure of a small American publisher that makes a small, niche game.

Can you post the part about the valid complaints on the KS comments? It might help Palladium see that even their white knights think they're doing a gakky job.

 n815e wrote:
"
Sorry, I don't feel embarrassed. Your "gotcha" didn't get a whole lot, really.
The official con list of events/games didn't have it. It's hard to be embarrassed for not knowing of a game event that wasn't listed on the con's own website of games and events.

But go ahead and tell us how this a failure of a small American publisher that makes a small, niche game.

The Paladium Cultists are hilarious.

But you're right, the fact that RRT didn't make it to this convention certainly is in no way PB's fault. Not in their terrible lateness, their frustrating mini-models, or their shipping to the UK 'whenever'. I'm sure all those things boosted the game in the UK tremendously.

At this point, even as the earliest person to prove him wrong, I'd say it might be best to leave well enough alone. N815e has already said he agrees there are significant issues with the ongoing campaign so no point in harping about the significance of a particular con. It's best not to start cannibalizing each other during the Great Robotech Kickstarter Famine of 2013...I mean 2014...dang it...2015 and counting. We all know who the real source of the information blight is.

 warboss wrote:
(maybe he missed a massive slew of Robotech selling like hotcakes in a nook of the vender hall or a huge participation game).

Now, I'm imagining someone in a shadowy nook of the game hall, dressed in a trenchcoat, opening it and pulling forth a small model as he speaks in a raspy voice "Hey buddy, wanna buy a battle pod?"

I just wish that PB would stop hawking the dice bag and making a big deal about the corrected stuff on their weekly newsletter. After about the second appearance, it IS just spam filler to their newsletter. But then, if they took off those things that were completed, their newsletter would be footnote...

Okay, complaint or observation:
What bothers me is how Palladium looks like it is using RRT like a lead-in for their RPG's.
Is it just me or do they stock more of their rags than the game at their last few events?
I can just imagine them saying: "when you are done playing with your toys, come play a real Man's game that uses imagination... you will thank us!"
They are such a "small time" mentality operation it just hurts, like they are afraid to succeed and throttle back.

There is only one reason to hang around and complain: freak'in Wave 2.

I kinds figured for the general public this game is dead, subject matter is before many people's time.
I got most of what I wanted as a complete game.
I have known Palladium for a long time and cease to care what they put in print: give me the models, I will take it from there.
The gushy, coy missives from them just seem all that more wrong because it is written with the thought we are "superfans" when we are gamers who want toys from our childhood and could care less what company it is other than not to be a pain in the release... and oh, the pain.

 Easy E wrote:
I found this Blog that I found pretty inspiring for my own feeble efforts....

http://robotechwargaming.blogspot.com/

The guy recreated the campaign and battles from the Bye-Bye Mars episodes in the show. His table is pretty cool.

Very cool link, thanks for posting it. After reading the tournament rules I had to laugh though, this guy would probably be disqualified because his fighter-mode Valkyries are too tall.

One of my complaints with the objectives and convoy markers is nothing is available through the company to make these. I am long time Flames of War player and Battlefront has loads of objective markers, some 3D and some flat. Sell me something... don't make me guess and risk Judge-wrath for something too tall or too flat.

...yeah, some people HAVE purchased objective markers from Palladerp Books. They paid for them years ago. They don't have them yet, and I'm sure they're 98% of the way to being delivered, but nobody has even seen a picture of one yet.

"The Paladium Cultists are hilarious. "

You do yourself no favors by insulting people just because they disagree with you. It only goes to prove my point how ridiculous the griping has become.

"At this point, even as the earliest person to prove him wrong"

You didn't prove me wrong, you found a picture of a game of X-Wing. That doesn't nullify my greater point.

Well, belittling of each other is not fair, that should be reserved for our negativity of Palladium!!!

In seriousness, their operational comfort zone is North America.
I just cannot see them going into discussions with a major distributor overseas and trying to get them to flog their stuff (in any convincing way).
I suspect that not showing in a UK convention is only an indication of how much effort PB is willing to expend, which is not much (saved it all for the dice bag...).

Look around and you will see the majority of the marketing is by us, the backers, showing off what we built, cool things we do and like with author credits; PB tries to claim the fame as their own. <edit> Mind you, the kickstarter comments page is a nasty piece of work... if I was a distributor I would have concerns looking at that thing.

They are the IP holders, so even though I KNOW I could do a better job of managing what they are facing, we have to sit idly by (unwanted, unloved) and hope some progress happens, usually spurred on as the money starts getting low.

I think I used my quota of negativity for the day... POSITIVE thing to say is YES those links are awesome for inspiration, I am still stuck on my block painting and washes so I have nothing cool to report.

I see it as kind of a mixed thing. Like much of their communication, they kind of paint themselves into a corner with all the talk about RRT being 'omg the biggest thing evar!'

If it's truly that huge, if it's selling so strongly, if it's their bread and butter and is to have a truly global presence, then that's the kind of thing one would expect; to have a global presence. Even if it's not them personally (as noted, many companies large and small alike don't attend in person).

But even when accounting for the shipping delay, boxes were available online nearly half a year ago. Boxes have been at local retailers (to the con that is) for months, whether Palladium was 'grr so angry' about it or not. So surely this super duper smash hit should've had some presence, shouldn't it? Some expansions for sale if they're truly selling like hotcakes? Some demos or a display army from a fan simply beaming with pride over their VT's and Battlepods?

Is it indicative that the sky has, in fact, fallen? No. And as a critical voice, I don't expect it to be a figurative smoking gun.

But it is another piece in the pile of things where reality and what they say don't quite match up.

Such is the problem with their particular style of communication; everything is absolutely amazing until it isn't. They should be believed because they're super serious but the moment it's proven untrue or impossible, it's not their fault, there are all these mitigating/extenuating factors, you see. Their word is simultaneously their bond and utterly worthless, and the 'cultists' (not you, Nate8) will use both sides in the same defense of their business practices.

Which makes the mockery simultaneously poking fun and exasperation both with the company and their... ah, rather rabid fanbase.

Frankly at this point even I tire of it sometimes. They simply make it too easy.

Edit: Like, we can probably pretty accurately detail how Gencon is going to go for them, 3 months out from it.

It will be amazing! Every fan was super excited! The booth was constantly packed and they sold just tons of books and expansions and woah so many cores! The demos were non-stop and the tournament went really well with *insert players here*.

Sadly there won't be many (or any) pics aside from those that fans provide themselves, and any reports of their booth not being a buzzing hive of activity will be dismissed as 'haters gonna hate'. Wave Two prototypes will be on display again. They'll probably have more Max/Miriya figures for sale, and possibly something else new. Like a bag for dice bags, or a figure bag (not Battlefoam, think more literally) or some gak. The True Fans will eat it up. The rest of us will roll our eyes.

I mean, their updates and newsletters have been copy-paste heavy for years now.

It should be no surprise that the mockery is now standardized to a 'wacky mad-libs' level as well.

I don't care. Just give me my MAC-II Monster.

PB has been made aware of concerns with the objectives and this is the response....

"Palladium will be supplying the convoy vehicles should an individual not be able to get 2 of something that would pass (like the Recovery Pod). This was announced in the weekly update.

And strait up poker chips can be used for objective markers."

As for the fighters I did make them aware of the height restrictions and to consider them.

I can imagine some wargamer looking to try something new. They hear about Robotech RPG Tactics and goes to the Net to find out more. Guess what they find!

After reading this and the Heavy Gear threads I feel like GW is the most beloved game company on the planet!