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 Forar wrote:
Also makes it all the more galling that Kevin supposedly doesn't even know how to play.

Now, now, it's easy when you don't give a gak.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Also makes it all the more galling that Kevin supposedly doesn't even know how to play.

Now, now, it's easy when you don't give a gak.

Clarity is not our strong suit today.

It's not galling that he doesn't know how to play in particular.

The person who *edited the book* should presumably know how to play, otherwise mechanical issues or oversights aren't nearly as likely to get caught.

I mean, assuming they want to catch more than spelling and grammatical errors, which, well... obviously... that's kind of a problem in and of itself.

It'd be like me trying to edit a 40k book. I've never played the game, 'throw a bunch of d6's, and stacked saves are obnoxious' are about as much as I know about the game. Also Orkz waaaaagh dakka etc.

I might catch a bunch of typoes, but aside from basic math catches ("+200 seems like an awfully big bonus to a 1d6... I'm guessing that should be a 2? Maaaybe a 20?") there are likely untold particulars I'd miss.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Also makes it all the more galling that Kevin supposedly doesn't even know how to play.

Now, now, it's easy when you don't give a gak.

How can you expect him to know how to play when it's been out for only a few weeks (in the ROW) to 8 months in the US? He doesn't even know how to play his RPGs that have been out for 20-30 years (depending on which one) largely unchanged.

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:

Who is the author of the Facebook crap? If reading it wasn't enough, Thomas roache liking it just confirms its drivel.

Joyboozer, please keep me out of your comments, since I have done nothing to you. What I choose to like on facebook should not be up to your uninformed interpretation.

Remember that the next time you choose to lie to backers on kickstarter claiming Palladium will have only minimal involvement in this project you open yourself to criticism.
Edit - you know, you're right, this whole project is just completely toxic, I don't know you and I don't have any right to talk about you, this mess isn't your fault. It's Kevin Siembieda, he has a lot to answer for, he's pissed a lot of people off then ran and hid his head in the sand.
My apologies, Thomas.

 Forar wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Also makes it all the more galling that Kevin supposedly doesn't even know how to play.

Now, now, it's easy when you don't give a gak.

Clarity is not our strong suit today.

It's not galling that he doesn't know how to play in particular.

The person who *edited the book* should presumably know how to play, otherwise mechanical issues or oversights aren't nearly as likely to get caught.

I mean, assuming they want to catch more than spelling and grammatical errors, which, well... obviously... that's kind of a problem in and of itself.

It'd be like me trying to edit a 40k book. I've never played the game, 'throw a bunch of d6's, and stacked saves are obnoxious' are about as much as I know about the game. Also Orkz waaaaagh dakka etc.

I might catch a bunch of typoes, but aside from basic math catches ("+200 seems like an awfully big bonus to a 1d6... I'm guessing that should be a 2? Maaaybe a 20?") there are likely untold particulars I'd miss.

You're absolutely right in that's what one would expect from a professional. But... well, when said professional doesn't give a gak, he doesn't bother to learn to play before fething around with the book, either. That's what the Kev has been doing with Palladium's books for about 30 years now, and by golly it's worked mighty fine, so why change?

It's a way of doing things that I expect most professionals to find abhorrent, but not this one.

 Forar wrote:
And it ties into his point; with the MASSIVE rewrites that are part of Kevin's reputation, the "omg things were changed we didn't know wth!?" rings awfully hollow.
Also makes it all the more galling that Kevin supposedly doesn't even know how to play.

I would think this would make him all the more hesitant to mess with the actual rules.
Anything remotely RPG I could see him feeling entitled but I am a tiny bit doubtful the rules portion got the Kevin treatment.
I figure Kevin is looking at it as "not invented here" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here) so has been largely ignoring the game as we have seen.
I need only mention "dice bag".

It may be a bit trying on the patience, but there IS an opportunity here to bundle a Wave 2 package with the "advanced rules" and some previously unavailable models and it could be flogged like a "new release but better!!". At least when/if Wave 2 happens, it has a marketing opportunity to get a last shot at publicity or the game will be dead as many have determined.

Get me my darn models, if rules updates makes the games more palatable out of the box and I do not have to house rule the heck out of them: it is a bonus.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
1. Wave 2 is expected due in December 2015, possibly sept/october but not likely...
They really are trying to get it out there.

I'll believe it when I see it, and I hope I see it come December!

And it's not like the models aren't there...

Noir wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
Oh, the throwing under the bus of the Ninja Division staff is classic Palladium. Umm... Who were the people who approved it for printing? Either the people at Palladium either saw the changes, and didn't care (until now, when complaints are raised), or the people at Palladium didn't see the changes, didn't do their jobs (given book editting is one of their primary tasks in their day to day operations), and printed a book they didn't properly check.

Never played their RPGs did you. The "person" is the same one that never let a book go to print without rewrite part of it or nearly the whole thing, ie. KS the owner of PB.

Yes, I'm aware Kevin's the person at the top, and his history of meddling, but the reason I referred to "people", was as others pointed out, Kevin has laid claim to not being particularly involved. So, unless Kevin took the draft copy from Ninja Division, and didn't let any of the people otherwise more "hands on" than himself (Wayne, Jeff, Carmen, other people behind the scenes, I'm not sure who's listed in the book's credits), I felt "people" was a more apt description. Sure, Kevin is ultimately responsible, but if this was a delegated task, there's enough blame to go around.

All I know is throwing ND under the bus seems weak most of the time, but in this case, it truly rings hollow.

Joyboozer wrote:
Edit - you know, you're right, this whole project is just completely toxic, I don't know you and I don't have any right to talk about you, this mess isn't your fault. It's Kevin Siembieda, he has a lot to answer for, he's pissed a lot of people off then ran and hid his head in the sand.
My apologies, Thomas.

Stuff like this makes me feel like I am at the right website / forum.
Well said on all counts.

Joyboozer, Thank You for the apology, I had almost given up hope that there are some reasonable people.
I would like to say that there is alot of misinformation out there. Much of it paints PB in broad negative strokes and creates the toxicity that everyone is seeing.
Should any of the actual history and facts of the situation come out then things would be viewed differently, but that will never matter, since many people are prone to judge Kevin as the bad guy, no matter what PB does or says it will be deemed negative.

And how could the release of the "actual history and facts" possibly happen?

I've said it before and I'll say it again; a full out 'post mortem' of this project would be *fascinating*.

I'm 98% sure we won't ever get it, but I'd love to peruse it if somehow it ever came to be.

 Forar wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again; a full out 'post mortem' of this project would be *fascinating*.

It'll be the same as Steve Jackson on Ogre DE:

"Mistakes were made"

Note that it's not a postmortem, as SJG still has several unfulfilled SGs, despite the project having funded more than 3 years ago.

Nor is it a "lessons learned", as it's obvious that SJG never learned anything. Just continuing radio silence and lame excuses.

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
Joyboozer, Thank You for the apology, I had almost given up hope that there are some reasonable people.
I would like to say that there is alot of misinformation out there. Much of it paints PB in broad negative strokes and creates the toxicity that everyone is seeing.
Should any of the actual history and facts of the situation come out then things would be viewed differently, but that will never matter, since many people are prone to judge Kevin as the bad guy, no matter what PB does or says it will be deemed negative.

If your that concerned, could you please give us some insight into what you see? I think communication is key here.

The game isn't selling that well if PB still has stacks of core boxes. I think a large part of it is the negative reaction the wargaming community has had toward PB due to a lack of communication on their part along with the quality of the models. You could help rectify that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: I hope Kevin and the gang are not blaming the lackluster sales on a few obnoxious people. They don't have that kind of power. People who don't post here or other places are choosing not to buy the game due in part to the high piece count and other personal factors.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It'll be the same as Steve Jackson on Ogre DE:

"Mistakes were made"

A) That's not 'a full out post mortem'.

B) We won't even get that much, as it would require Palladium to admit they can make a mistake.

C) That's why I said we'll probably never get it.

The only hope I think that exists to see that level of information and transparency is a 'Bill Coffin Spills the Beans' style manifesto from someone anonymous, and even that seems highly unlikely, as the number of people 'in the know' is likely small enough that it'd probably be immediately obvious who spoke up even without identifying characteristics.

Maybe if PB collapsed at some point in the coming years, or some other event that took most of the bite out of potential litigation/NDA enforcement/etc.

Or, you know, someone got arrested and decided to spill the beans in their free time...

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
I would like to say that there is alot of misinformation out there.

Please do not confuse "guesses" made due to lack of information from PB.
Their silence breeds speculation so the only real facts we have is they are unwilling to discuss much.
They have demonstrated a rather amateur means of handling customer relations.

Much of it paints PB in broad negative strokes and creates the toxicity that everyone is seeing.

The broad negativity is backers dropped a fair bit of money up front with the "promise" of a quarter year wait until the KS was "funded" then dates changed.
Shipping cost changed depending on what you ordered (after funding again).
The toxicity is where many things were said up until the point where they had our money so some measure of buyer remorse was felt.
Stating Ninja Division was managing the project was the ultimate bait and switch: if I knew PB was taking control, I would have waited for retail (if it happened at all).

Should any of the actual history and facts of the situation come out then things would be viewed differently, but that will never matter, since many people are prone to judge Kevin as the bad guy, no matter what PB does or says it will be deemed negative.

But what about prior well documented history?
Do we not typically judge present behavior on past?
What is rather telling is if the "facts came out" and things would be viewed differently: why not publish it?
Why not admit things went wrong?
It would do so much to remove the "toxicity".
When so many controversial moments came up they all "seemed" to boil down to PB looking to make or save money at someone's expense.
I am sorry, but broad statements along the line "if you only knew!" I have to call bull pucks on.

Kevin wants anything with his name attached to be "just so" his way.
There is some pride in that, some ownership.
It also has an overriding conceit/view/opinion that others cannot handle what he does.
He cannot let others better equipped to get the job done: he is his own worst enemy and we are along for the ride.
This is where that "paternal" tone can drive backers crazy when the guy has your stuff and plays coy "it is coming soon, just you wait!".

I wonder if another thing contributing to "toxicity" is the fact we've gotten almost three months of "SOMETHING EXCITING IS COMING SOON. THERE'S SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT!!! IT'S DEFINITELY EXCITING!!!!". Particularly when the last update that actually contained garbage(3 new models, of which only two were new, one of which was absolutely terrible, none of which were actually physical).

I wonder if crap like that actually worked to generate excitement among the faithful?

 Forar wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It'll be the same as Steve Jackson on Ogre DE:

"Mistakes were made"

A) That's not 'a full out post mortem'.

B) We won't even get that much, as it would require Palladium to admit they can make a mistake.

A) for SJG & PB, YES IT IS!!!

B) there is a very big difference in stating "mistakes were made", "we made a mistake" and "I made a mistake". In the case of SJG & PB, the statement will be "mistakes were made".

And let's be clear, none of the delays are SJG's or PB's fault. Things happened, and mistakes were made. That's the long and the short of it.

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
Joyboozer, Thank You for the apology, I had almost given up hope that there are some reasonable people.

I hope to say that someday about the folks who primarily only post on the palladium forums to the exclusion of other venues but I have yet to encounter more than one person.

I would like to say that there is alot of misinformation out there. Much of it paints PB in broad negative strokes and creates the toxicity that everyone is seeing.
Should any of the actual history and facts of the situation come out then things would be viewed differently, but that will never matter, since many people are prone to judge Kevin as the bad guy, no matter what PB does or says it will be deemed negative.

Misinformation? Do you think that has anything to do with the complete vacuum of actual information from the horse's mouth? We've only gotten now FOR MONTHS vague assurances and lies from the other end of the Palladium horse. That negativity (which I agree is significant) that you talk about is directly proportional to the significant delays. It is also proportional to the significant lack of real progress updates as well as the sheer amount of lies, backpedaling, and rolling release dates based on apparently astrology and fortune cookies moreso than actual project management.

You talk about behind the scenes drama but we only see the end result. Are the other two companies due their share of blame? I don't doubt it. HG is notorious for being a douche and ND had a very late (although at this point LESS late than robotech now) KS as well and split from the company that worked with them on it. That of course does NOT erase well documented decades of hubris, incompetence, and stubborness on the part of palladium. Palladium worked by themselves in the field that they have 30 years experience in to crowdfund two book that were ALSO massively late (over a year to two years); should we blame ND for that too? Or maybe HG? Or maybe the Crisis of Treachery? Or the current Crisis of Treacheryer Part Deux? People judge Palladium based on the current events within the framework of their past sordid history. I gave Palladium another chance with this KS and the only thing they've accomplished fully so far is to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're still the same exact company that I stopped liking over a decade earlier. They have learned nothing in the intervening years.

Apologies as I haven't followed this whole Kickstarter debacle as it's gone on.

I've seen a copy of this game at my FLGS and have considered picking it up. However, there seems to be a lot of negativity surrounding the company and so I wanted to get opinions of my fellow Dakkanauts: is the core game worth purchasing?

 Accolade wrote:
Apologies as I haven't followed this whole Kickstarter debacle as it's gone on.

I've seen a copy of this game at my FLGS and have considered picking it up. However, there seems to be a lot of negativity surrounding the company and so I wanted to get opinions of my fellow Dakkanauts: is the core game worth purchasing?

The answer is: depends. Do you have an active robotech group in your area that you'll be joining or will the responsibility to start one be entirely on your shoulders? Do you have the ability/interest to use the minis for battletech? Do you mind that things the size of a spacemarine's helmet/head and limbs split into two to three parts making the average figure have two dozen parts or more? Do you mind gap filling seams on the front of every limb and frequently multiple times on the torso? Do you have a morale issue with supporting a company that will break promises, obfuscate the truth, and simply treat you like a red headed bastard stepchild customer when it suits them even a little? If you bring up legitimate concerns and issues through the official channels, are you prepared to be at best ignored or at worst sanctioned for trolling both officially by the company as well as unofficially by their fan friends? If more than a couple of those bother you, don't buy it unless you're a huge robotech fanboy (and even that isn't enough for some once you look at it). If you can get through the sheer stupidity of the sprue designs as well as the wholey unnecessary drama caused by the company and their actions, you get a good amount of product that looks nice for a very low price. I can't speak with any certainty about the rules because I didn't get that far (too many of those previous bullet points killed my inner fanboy).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
A) for SJG & PB, YES IT IS!!!

You seem to think I give a gak what what PB thinks 'full information is'? They think that their newsletters aren't a massive waste of time, we can already rule out their opinion on that basis alone.

I'm talking about a real drilling down of events, time lines, cause->effect, etc. 'X happened, which caused Y, which was exacerbated by Z, which led to delay 1, 2 and 3. We attempted to right the course through _____, but half of it only made things worse, extenuating circumstances beyond our control happened, and maybe telling the dock workers to stop being donkey caves with a bag of poop labelled "love Palladium" might have been a bad idea.' An outright invasive and painstakingly thorough investigation, like the procedure it's named after.

It requires introspection and a willingness to recognize ones own mistakes. To step back and not take things so personally. And I have seen it done by other projects. If well documented it can prove to be an invaluable learning experience and a way to assess ones strengths, weaknesses, and establish better baselines in the business model/practices.

@Accolade: what Warboss said. Also, look on the secondary market (ebay, area specific markets like Craigslist, etc), as there may be backers looking to offload some spare material. If you Facebook, Mike's "unofficial Robotech Tactics" page has some backers selling stuff off as well.

How good a 'deal' you might get will depend on what the local shop is selling for, what taxes might be involved, how much shipping from a backer might cost, etc, but I know most of what I sold over the last half year was well below retail prices, even when accounting for shipping.

Forar, that would require planning and forsight on the part of palladium that would at least rival that of a beaver making a dam. They've got a long way to go.

 Forar wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
A) for SJG & PB, YES IT IS!!!

You seem to think I give a gak what what PB thinks 'full information is'?

You seem to be under the grossly mistaken impression that PB's world doesn't revolve around Kevin, and that SJG's world doesn't revolve around SJG. These guys substitute reality with their own whims. You seem to be in deep denial that they actually give a flying feth what you want. If you want to go on a pointless crusade of trying to squeeze information out of them, be my guest. I think you'll have better luck gold-plating a turd, but the business of tilting at windmills is entirely on you.

Me, I'm just hoping that Wave 2 comes out by the end of the year.

 Accolade wrote:
Apologies as I haven't followed this whole Kickstarter debacle as it's gone on.
I've seen a copy of this game at my FLGS and have considered picking it up. However, there seems to be a lot of negativity surrounding the company and so I wanted to get opinions of my fellow Dakkanauts: is the core game worth purchasing?

Whoa, Warboss is not a happy camper.

Assuming you know nothing about Robotech.
Go watch some shows on YouTube, I will wait.
Did you like what you saw?
Remember it was a long time ago but transforming robots! and giant bad guys!

Okay, the giant bad guy models are quite nice, I think you will like them.
Now, how good are you at putting models together?
Do you REALLY like it?
20 parts about for a single Veritech figure and you need to build 3 of each type (total 12 for a 4 man squadron).
It will work out to about 30 minutes a model to assemble with the mentioned filling.
Not for the faint at heart but try out a battleoid first, they are more humane and look good.

Have you played 40k?
If so, these rules should be easy enough.

I personally find I have to host and supply both armies so-far.
Going to play tonight BTW.

I would suggest getting the Drop Zone Commander City as a really good and fast means of a pretty area to game.

Give it some thought.
I think you really have to like Robotech (Macross) the anime a whole lot before you would invest the effort in making the game look good.

Best (non-raging) advice I can give. Oh yeah, RUN run while you can... it is too late for us....

Yeah, I know. Which is why it's baffling that JohnnyNipples (my mind seems to combine names and avatars together) feels the need to split hairs on just how unlikely it is.

 Talizvar wrote:
Whoa, Warboss is not a happy camper.

It's subtle but I tried to express my disappointment at this two year delayed and ongoing process. I went from plugging the game at my local store and to other friends across the country, starting the thread here to advertise it, creating the robotech dakka track, and even making a promo youtube video out of excitement that I'd finally be getting a Robotech game... to this. Thanks, Palladium!

Going to play tonight BTW.

Let us know how it goes and if you use some of the house rules you mentioned earlier.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Forar wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
A) for SJG & PB, YES IT IS!!!

You seem to think I give a gak what what PB thinks 'full information is'?

You seem to be under the grossly mistaken impression that PB's world doesn't revolve around Kevin, and that SJG's world doesn't revolve around SJG. These guys substitute reality with their own whims. You seem to be in deep denial that they actually give a flying feth what you want. If you want to go on a pointless crusade of trying to squeeze information out of them, be my guest. I think you'll have better luck gold-plating a turd, but the business of tilting at windmills is entirely on you.

Me, I'm just hoping that Wave 2 comes out by the end of the year.

Dude, seriously, what is your problem?

I can wistfully wish for a dozen celebrities to show up at my home to ravish me, that doesn't mean I'm projecting anything on anyone.

I'm actively not in denial about anything; I even said it wasn't likely to happen, holy feth seriously what is wrong with your reading comprehension?

I'm not crusading for anything. It was a fething throw away post and you're trying to make it out like I'm calling for torches and pitchforks.

I SAID I DO NOT THINK PB IS CAPABLE OF DOING THIS, BUT IT'D BE NICE IF IT HAPPENED, EVEN THOUGH THEY CAN'T.

Holy gak guys, am I speaking Swahili over here?

Dude, you're the one who's getting wound up, not me. Maybe you should chill a bit?