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Here is the link:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/769058356/warhammer-40k-limited-edition-challenge-coins

Hooo boy.

Risks and challenges

Producing the coins is not an issue. I have done this many times before.

Even though I am familiar with copyright and trademark law and I am on firm legal ground, my only concern is that Games Workshop tries to cause an issue. Hopefully, they realize that I have done my research and I only want to enhance the Warhammer 40K experience and that I respect their company. A successful project can encourage more people to get involved in Warhammer. This is good for everyone. However, not a single copyright image or trademarked name was used on any of the coins. Basically, there should not be any issue.

Can't see GW being too happy from an IP point of view to be honest...

Not to mention he is clearly using this as a pre-order platform.

Gets popcorn

This should be fun.

While I agree with the guy that he probably is on solid legal ground, as nothing on his example coins was a trademarked name or copyrighted image, I fully expect GW to crawl up his a** any minute now.

Edit: he had better make it EXTREMELY clear up front though that this is not associated with GW. It took me a few paragraphs to be sure it was just some guy and not an inept GW foray into crowdsourcing.

Well, he is specifically using their trademarks to advertise it though.

Also, can we get a thread title update? I thought GW went kickstarter for a minute.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
, I fully expect GW to crawl up his a** any minute now.

Demonizing GW for future attempts to protect their own IP.

Oh internets, you so crazy.

Not sure what's worse, the incoming storm, or gakky coins that have nothing to do with the hobby and just show off random clipart.

 pretre wrote:
Well, he is specifically using their trademarks to advertise it though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, can we get a thread title update. I thought GW went kickstarter for a minute.

Yes, you're right. If he stripped all references to "Warhammer 40k" from his descriptions and just called them "Sci-fi challenge coins" he would be ok (that and a big disclaimer up front that this is not affiliated with GW).

Aside from the potential legal issues...

What is the appeal? There are no coin-flip mechanics in 40k. I don't understand his explanation of a 'challenge coin' as being a thing which is relevant to 40k or the game in general.

Maybe as objective markers? Maybe as event freebies? Status markers?

This isn't going to end well for the people behind this kickstarter.

I'm would be surprised that Adeptus Astartes, Imperial Guard, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, and Imperium of Man wouldn't be protected under GW copyrights or IP.

I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

In fairness, I am not trying to demonize anybody, but he is wrong when he claims that he is 'on solid legal ground'.

If you look at GW's list of protected phrases, it includes:

"...the Warhammer 40,000 device, the Double Headed/Imperial Eagle device and all associated products, marks, logos, places, names, creatures, races and race insignia/devices/logos/symbols, factions, vehicles, locations, weapons, units, characters, illustrations and images .."

Which would cover all of the armies that he has listed by name for starters. As well as 'Imperium' and definitely 'Adeptus Astartes'.

I am honestly tired to the point of comatose of the continual rubbish that gets spouted about the 'big bad evil empire' of GW, especially after the 'Spots the Space Marine' debacle, but I can see that GW will be quietly asking this one to be put to one side.

Additionally, I really don't see the point in these coins, but that's a whole other topic...

 pretre wrote:
I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

They are in fact a "thing". Ask any military member, they can tell you about them and why you ALWAYS have one on you.

@ Blargmasterg: GW's "ownership" of the double-headed eagle is actually in debate in the Chapter House trial.

Yeah, he is not on solid legal ground at all. He is quite obviously using GW's trademarks and faction names to make money which is quite obviously infringement. Pledging for it is a waste of time/money, he's clueless.

And I agree that there is no use for them in the first place.

Don't you get what he means with a challange coin? He is challenging GW!

 Platuan4th wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

They are in fact a "thing". Ask any military member, they can tell you about them and why you ALWAYS have one on you.

@ Blargmasterg: GW's "ownership" of the double-headed eagle is actually in debate in the Chapter House trial.

Didn't mention the double headed eagle. I mentioned the race and unti names and Imperium of man and Adeptus Astartes. The double headed eagle exactly as it appears on their logo is their trademarked device with no question. But they can't generally trademark the general device of a double headed eagle because that's been in use since Roman times.

And there's no 'r' in the middle of my name

Well, this thread wins the prize for most misleading thread title. :p

 Flashman wrote:
Gets popcorn

"Likelihood of confusion" is the central focus of any trademark infringement claim. A likelihood of confusion exists when consumers viewing the allegedly infringing mark would probably assume that the product or service it represents is associated with the source of a different product or service identified with a similar mark.

This is according to Cornell law and some other sites.

There is a bold disclaimer on the project. GW may be out of luck.

The iconography at least looks ok, but specific phrases like "Adeptus Astartes" are probably not. If he is indeed using any of their trademarks then he's just totally out of luck. Also the way in which he's advertising this is very misleading ("Warhammer 40,000 Challenge Coins", seriously?) and is probably a trademark violation in itself.

Either way, whether he's on "solid legal ground" (which I totally take back) or not, the guy is going to get a C&D for sure and this whole thing will fold.

Can we put together a Kickstarter for a collective gaming fund?

I've seen some off the wall crap on KS, this one ranks up there.

There is really no discussion on this, it's frakin stupid. Send me all of that filthy cash, dirtying your pockets. IP whatever, this is just assclownery incarnate.

That someone would do this is an attribute to the old adage- "Theres a sucker born every minute."


Fund my KS. I'm making stick figures with "Space Marine" written on them..... ooooohhhh

 blagmasterg wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

They are in fact a "thing". Ask any military member, they can tell you about them and why you ALWAYS have one on you.

@ Blargmasterg: GW's "ownership" of the double-headed eagle is actually in debate in the Chapter House trial.

Didn't mention the double headed eagle. I mentioned the race and unti names and Imperium of man and Adeptus Astartes. The double headed eagle exactly as it appears on their logo is their trademarked device with no question. But they can't generally trademark the general device of a double headed eagle because that's been in use since Roman times.

And there's no 'r' in the middle of my name

You kinda did mention the eagle, reread what you put in quotes.

What Trademarks does GW legally own? The CHS case has already shown the GW never actually registered any of their trademarks.

Additionally, it's pretty accurate that GW wouldn't even own trademarks anyway for challenge coins.

And GW very specifically doesn't have registered or enforceable trademarks on terms like "Imperial Guard".

I'd like Sean O Brien, czakk, or weeble to weight on on this one, however, as they've got the brains for this.

 judgedoug wrote:
What Trademarks does GW legally own? The CHS case has already shown the GW never actually registered any of their trademarks.

Additionally, it's pretty accurate that GW wouldn't even own trademarks anyway for challenge coins.

And GW very specifically doesn't have registered or enforceable trademarks on terms like "Imperial Guard".

I'd like Sean O Brien, czakk, or weeble to weight on on this one, however, as they've got the brains for this.

Warhammer 40k seems like the likely legal tipping point

The heart on the BA one made me chuckle.

I'd be surprised if it was live for more than a day or two.

Kickstarter hasn't shown any hesitation to pull projects they think might be on dubious legal ground, and I can just feel the C&D letters being drafted as I write this.

 BrookM wrote:
Not sure what's worse, the incoming storm, or gakky coins that have nothing to do with the hobby and just show off random clipart.

Yeah... I mean, if you're going to violate IP, you might as well do it in style.