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I don't see this lasting out the week.

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

Warhammer 40k seems like the likely legal tipping point

Maybe but the products don't actually use any legally registered trademarks.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

They are in fact a "thing". Ask any military member, they can tell you about them and why you ALWAYS have one on you.

Do any military members who are aware of 'challenge coins' or participate in them see this as an appealing thing for wargaming? If everyone who wargamed had them because we had a coinflip mechanic sothere were reasons for unique coins it could be a neat concept.

I wouldn't mind getting a deffskull ork one if there was an option and this KS survives.

nkelsch wrote:

Do any military members who are aware of 'challenge coins' or participate in them see this as an appealing thing for wargaming?

Every single member of my last gaming group(purely made of military, spouses, or former military) had one. It's not something you really choose to not participate in(I guess if you never spend any time with your unit/squadron/etc.), at least from what I understand/my wife has explained it. It can get expensive if you don't participate.

 judgedoug wrote:
Maybe but the products don't actually use any legally registered trademarks.

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about enforceability, but those do seem to include trademarked terms: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=6&aId=3900002&start=7&multiPageMode=true

It's a bit of a mixed bag: "Adeptus Astartes" and "Blood Angels" are registered while "Imperial Guard" and "Space Wolves" are not. But I think it's enough to craft a scary letter to Kickstarter.

Not only do these suck, who the hell am I going to challenge with them? Its not like some guy at a bar is going to drop his unit coin on the table, then I drop my Black Templars coin...I don't win, I lose. And look stupid in the process when he says "what the hell is that from?"

And yes, "challenge" coins are a real thing. Often you'll see someone drop a coin from a high ranking individual(often marked in some kind of way to identify unit), and if yours is lower ranking, or you fail to present it, you buy a drink. I never do that, and usually tell them to feth off when some guy wants to be cool, when he is probably a pogue(P.O.G. Person Other than Grunt) and show me some coin I don't care about. They are cool to collect but that is about it.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

Warhammer 40k seems like the likely legal tipping point

Maybe but the products don't actually use any legally registered trademarks.

Trademarks don't have to be registered to be enforced. If GW can prove use of the marks in commerce prior to your use of them they have the rights to it. Registering said marks just makes them easier to enforce.

At any rate, KS has the right to pull the page if they feel it may generate any unwanted heat, which I imagine will be the case.

Wow. I just read all of the rules for challenging. That's pretty crazy and I agree. Who is going to accept your BT coin in a challenge? lol

 pretre wrote:
Wow. I just read all of the rules for challenging. That's pretty crazy and I agree. Who is going to accept your BT coin in a challenge? lol

No one but a group of nerds, probably.


I think my favorite coin I've seen so far was the Schriever AFB OGV coins: it's a coin with a built-in bottle opener. Somewhere, my wife also has one of the coins from the satellite launch a few years back with the emblem shaped like the Autobot symbol.

I guess the good thing about this kickstarter is that it exposed me to a tradition that I wasn't aware existed. I am now more informed than I was before I clicked the link this morning.

 pretre wrote:
I guess the good thing about this kickstarter is that it exposed me to a tradition that I wasn't aware existed. I am now more informed than I was before I clicked the link this morning.

Pretty much this. I do think that the tradition would be a fun one to have with a group of friends, perhaps with differing rules for different occasions.

Below is an update from the KS page.

"On Games Workshop legal page, GW claims trademarks and copyrights for numerous terms. However, if you run a trademark search through the US Trademark Office and Great Britain trademark office, they have only registered a few of these terms.

So basically, they are claiming numerous trademarks that they have not registered. Common law does give you some rights if you have a trademark and not registered it.


However, the central issue in any trademark case is the "consumer going to be confused by the source of the goods." You must have that for trademark infringement. This is a Kickstarter project created by a fan. It states that on my Kickstarter page. Any reasonable consumer would know that the source of these goods is not from Games Workshop.

Thank you very much for the thoughts. I know it is a tricky issue, but on the surface it really comes down to that."

That is the update posted.

There's a lot of stuff happening in the news this week. So my money is on the project lasting until Wednesday.

This... this is just going to end very poorly.

Drake777 wrote:
Below is an update from the KS page.

"On Games Workshop legal page, GW claims trademarks and copyrights for numerous terms. However, if you run a trademark search through the US Trademark Office and Great Britain trademark office, they have only registered a few of these terms.

So basically, they are claiming numerous trademarks that they have not registered. Common law does give you some rights if you have a trademark and not registered it.


However, the central issue in any trademark case is the "consumer going to be confused by the source of the goods." You must have that for trademark infringement. This is a Kickstarter project created by a fan. It states that on my Kickstarter page. Any reasonable consumer would know that the source of these goods is not from Games Workshop.

Thank you very much for the thoughts. I know it is a tricky issue, but on the surface it really comes down to that."

That is the update posted.

This isn't Fair Use or nominative use of trademarks. These are not products that are using the marks to denote compatibility. These are standalone products being advertised with trademarks on them.

Trademarks don't have to be registered in order to be protected.

More importantly, KS isn't going to fight GW on this, and I doubt the KS creator has the resources to combat a C&D or lawsuit, and pro bono representation is a slim chance.

Even if you are hypothetically in the right, I doubt you(the KS creator) have the resources to prove it.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Wow. I just read all of the rules for challenging. That's pretty crazy and I agree. Who is going to accept your BT coin in a challenge? lol

No one but a group of nerds, probably.


I think my favorite coin I've seen so far was the Schriever AFB OGV coins: it's a coin with a built-in bottle opener. Somewhere, my wife also has one of the coins from the satellite launch a few years back with the emblem shaped like the Autobot symbol.

No those wouldn't go over so well, generally it should be a unit or commanders coin which means as cool as the one above is ( I had a hand in the design on the other side) it wouldn't work to well either except in limited circumstances. Wonder when 50OGV designed that coin mine didn't look like that but its a bit old. (and Plat for the trifecta of weird coincidences I'm also at Maxwell)

Risks and challenges
I might get caught and sentenced for fraud.

1st stretch Goal 10,000$
This is to pay the parole so I can work on this more freely

Seriously, advertising "Warhammer 40K Limited Edition Challenge Coins" and thinking to be on safe ground is showing a lacking touch of reality.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Risks and challenges
I might get caught and sentenced for fraud.

1st stretch Goal 10,000$
This is to pay the parole so I can work on this more freely

Seriously, advertising "Warhammer 40K Limited Edition Challenge Coins" and thinking to be on safe ground is showing a lacking touch of reality.

Exactly

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
, I fully expect GW to crawl up his a** any minute now.

Demonizing GW for future attempts to protect their own IP.

Oh internets, you so crazy.

Wow, leaping in to defend GW even when they're not being attacked.


I agree GW is going to "crawl up their ass any minute now" and is going to, in this case, be absolutely 100% in the right to do so, if for no other reason than using the term "Warhammer 40,000" to promote them.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Risks and challenges
I might get caught and sentenced for fraud.

1st stretch Goal 10,000$
This is to pay the parole so I can work on this more freely

Seriously, advertising "Warhammer 40K Limited Edition Challenge Coins" and thinking to be on safe ground is showing a lacking touch of reality.

Haha Yes that seems like the biggest mistake here. Why not just call them "Sci-Fi Tournament Coins". He probably would have been fine with that and vague references to AN Emperor, and Guadsmen and what not. He could have maybe done quite well making coins for leagues and tournaments or something...

lol, will they be doing Dark Eldar coins?

darkeldarcrone wrote:
lol, will they be doing Dark Eldar coins?

No their other kickstarter is "U.S. Department of the Treasury Quarter" coins, of course on legally safe ground

He is using trademarks GW has asserted against CHS. If GW does NOT assert its alleged rights...well...yea, something is going to happen...

Jerram wrote:

No those wouldn't go over so well, generally it should be a unit or commanders coin which means as cool as the one above is ( I had a hand in the design on the other side) it wouldn't work to well either except in limited circumstances. Wonder when 50OGV designed that coin mine didn't look like that but its a bit old. (and Plat for the trifecta of weird coincidences I'm also at Maxwell)

Not sure exactly when they designed it, but it was in the past 4 years or so, iirc.

Also, PM'd.

Edit: I brain farted. I think I'm thinking of the CGO coin, not the OGV coin. I'll make sure when she gets in.

Edit Deuce: Yep, CGO, not OGV.

Drake777 wrote:
"Likelihood of confusion" is the central focus of any trademark infringement claim. A likelihood of confusion exists when consumers viewing the allegedly infringing mark would probably assume that the product or service it represents is associated with the source of a different product or service identified with a similar mark.

This is according to Cornell law and some other sites.

There is a bold disclaimer on the project. GW may be out of luck.

Well, there has to be a trademark in the first place...so..."Imperial Guard?"

Imperial Guard is a generic term, unless you want to call Napoleon's Army unoriginal.

 Aerethan wrote:

More importantly, KS isn't going to fight GW on this, and I doubt the KS creator has the resources to combat a C&D or lawsuit, and pro bono representation is a slim chance.

I'm agreeing with you that Kickstarter probably wouldn't bother to fight, but you are seriously underestimating how much cash those folks have access to.

I find it a little odd that this was even green lit, but hey I am not a lawyer.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

More importantly, KS isn't going to fight GW on this, and I doubt the KS creator has the resources to combat a C&D or lawsuit, and pro bono representation is a slim chance.

I'm agreeing with you that Kickstarter probably wouldn't bother to fight, but you are seriously underestimating how much cash those folks have access to.

I find it a little odd that this was even green lit, but hey I am not a lawyer.

~Eric

I mean the person who made this particular KS, not the person/company who created KickStarter entirely.

Any random schmuck can make a KS.

I would also very much argue that "Adeptus Astartes Challenge Coin" creates an impression that it's an official product(which is the reason I clicked on this thread to begin with) and that it is misleading and creates brand confusion. And I don't even like GW very much. They will C&D, KS will pull it. Give it a few days.

 Aerethan wrote:


I mean the person who made this particular KS, not the person/company who created KickStarter entirely.

Any random schmuck can make a KS.

I would also very much argue that "Adeptus Astartes Challenge Coin" creates an impression that it's an official product(which is the reason I clicked on this thread to begin with) and that it is misleading and creates brand confusion. And I don't even like GW very much. They will C&D, KS will pull it. Give it a few days.

Totally misread you on that one, sorry.

I agree that this will probably not last.

~Eric

If done at cost plus shipping, for personal use is not resale... using kick starter as a means to perform a group buy. I see no issues on this. You may personally reuse anyone's IP as long as you do not resell. Its all part of the DMCA kids.

As for challenge coins, being in the military for the last 16 years I have amassed quite a collection and its odd I have not thoughtto bring the idea to 40k for the gaming club.

Also generally speaking... coins bought are worthless, coins gifted are coveted. So we tend to make custom coins and regift them in appreciation for troops that perform with excellence.