Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think you're taking a slightly too competitive stance over this Peregrine. Which I don't think is what Ailaros is getting at.

No, a Primaris Psyker is not a good choice when you're min/maxing a Guard list for a tournament. There are other thinhgs that use the points more efficiently.

But yes, it can be fun for a casual game, and doesn't completely suck. Just because its not the most efficient choice does not translate into being a bad choice necessarily.

 Ketara wrote:
I think you're taking a slightly too competitive stance over this Peregrine.

I guess he's just under the impression this is the tactics forum or something.

Ketara wrote:I think you're taking a slightly too competitive stance over this Peregrine. Which I don't think is what Ailaros is getting at.

No, a Primaris Psyker is not a good choice when you're min/maxing a Guard list for a tournament. There are other thinhgs that use the points more efficiently.

But yes, it can be fun for a casual game, and doesn't completely suck. Just because its not the most efficient choice does not translate into being a bad choice necessarily.

This. Admittedly, it is a meh choice but unless your list is meant for competitive play (which, if you add one of these it obviously isn't going to be most likely) I really don't see why it's so terrible. What happened to variety, and fun, and not always being super efficient and competitive....

Krellnus wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
I think you're taking a slightly too competitive stance over this Peregrine.

I guess he's just under the impression this is the tactics forum or something.

So? Tactics doesn't always mean super efficient and competitive. That seems to be a common misunderstanding. Aliaros isn't dumb, he wants a discussion on what situations you could use a "jedi" psyker in and if it's even possible to recreate now. He doesn't care if it's the most effective choice.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
I think you're taking a slightly too competitive stance over this Peregrine.

I guess he's just under the impression this is the tactics forum or something.

/claps slowly.

Bravo. Well done. Rapier wit indeed. You should be proud.

Presuming you're finished demonstrating your amazing comedy prowess however, I'm afraid the onus falls on me to point out that 'tactics' is not the same thing as'competitive'. The OP is trying to figure out the best close combat loadout for a psyker, because he wants to see how good he can make it. Simple as. It's been pointed out that its not the most efficient use of points potentially possible, which is fine.

When it has been established that absolute min/max is not the intended goal of the thread however, constant repetition of the aforementioned fact becomes somewhat pointless.

Tactics and even competitiveness are about more than mix maxing and taking three Vendettas, That's why not all lists that win tournaments are min/max cookie cutter.

I like it. A cheap level 2 psyker on biomancy can be an efficient force multiplier. It fills a niche inside the guard codex and IG has plenty of squads that can help give him challenge protection in close combat. And in games when you roll enfeeble, the whole army will benefit from him being around.

You know, I actually don't think it's that inefficient.

Start with two wounds worth of BS4 guardsman (14 points). Then throw on a pair of assault plasma guns that can't hurt vehicles, but much, much more rarely get hot (say, 25 points), and a power weapon (10 points). Right there, you're spending basically 50 points.

The question is one of what you get for the other 20. In this case, you get a 2+ LoS!, a +1 to that squad's deny the witch roll, a 5++ invulnerable save, and the chance to make your weapon cause instant death.

Really, it sounds like you're getting about 70 points worth of stuff out of this model.

Just a quick note
@Valkyrie - the Primaris Psyker does not get Divination so you could not get the power that lets you get "forewarning" (I think thats the name) that lets you fire overwatch at full BS.

Back on topic though, for my warrior psyker "jedi" guy I started using Coteaz from the Inquisition. One of the most cost effective psykers that CAN get Divination, has a 2+ Sv, Deamon hammer and some nifty rules.

I like running him with Crusaders with Axes and Deathcult with swords. (Too bad they are not Battle Brothers but with the new FAQ at least they can capture/contest objectives for you.)

Edit: He is also a IC so he has the 2+ LOS too.

 Ailaros wrote:
Start with two wounds worth of BS4 guardsman (14 points). Then throw on a pair of assault plasma guns that can't hurt vehicles, but much, much more rarely get hot (say, 25 points), and a power weapon (10 points). Right there, you're spending basically 50 points.

Ok, sure, but now you're no longer talking about a melee psyker, you're just bringing another generic shooting unit. And one that isn't even very effective since the "plasma" is only STR 4 (which means wounding on a 4+ vs. wounding on a 2+).

 Ketara wrote:
The OP is trying to figure out the best close combat loadout for a psyker, because he wants to see how good he can make it.

No, the OP is asking "can this work". If he wants to edit it to say "I know this unit sucks, but I like the fluff/model and am willing to put up with reducing my chances of winning to use it. Now how do I make it suck as little as possible?" then I'll gladly drop the "don't use it at all" comments.

 Peregrine wrote:
t close combat loadout for a psyker, because he wants to see how good he can make it.

No, the OP is asking "can this work". If he wants to edit it to say "I know this unit sucks, but I like the fluff/model and am willing to put up with reducing my chances of winning to use it. Now how do I make it suck as little as possible?" then I'll gladly drop the "don't use it at all" comments.

So in other words, you want him to go go, 'Bah, this entire unit is terrible, it should never be used!' (using the logic that it's inefficient for min/maxing).

Yet somehow, I don't think that's going to happen, because he's not looking to min/max. In which case, you might as well stop saying the same thing over and over, and assume that the point has been understood but not entirely agreed with.

My point isn't to merely discuss some fluffy unit, it's to break up vapid groupthink, and unhelpful, out-of-hand rejection of what people aren't already playing. Once you get to the point of thinking that there is a THE way to play guard that has THE good units, and nothing is even worth thinking about, that's the point where you become hopeless as a guard commander. 40k is always changing, and being able to be innovative and change along with it is... well... sort of the point of the tactics forum, actually.

As for coteaz, yeah, I could definitely see him in this role as well. I guess the problem is that he is more expensive (depending on how you have him set up), and he also doesn't fill your mandatory HQ slot. It would be interesting to see coteaz with prescience/precog and iron arm/weaken.

 Ketara wrote:
So in other words, you want him to go go, 'Bah, this entire unit is terrible, it should never be used!' (using the logic that it's inefficient for min/maxing).

No, I want him to say "don't take this unit if winning is your priority, but if you want to use it for other reasons here's how to make the best of your bad unit" instead of constantly talking about bad units like they're actually competitive options.

 Ailaros wrote:
My point isn't to merely discuss some fluffy unit, it's to break up vapid groupthink, and unhelpful, out-of-hand rejection of what people aren't already playing.

But you've gone way past the point of thinking about unconventional options and into proposing bad units and strategies just for the sake of being different.

 Peregrine wrote:


No, I want him to say "don't take this unit if winning is your priority, but if you want to use it for other reasons here's how to make the best of your bad unit" instead of constantly talking about bad units like they're actually competitive options.

It's not going to happen because he doesn't agree with you that any unit that is not the 'best' or most competitive unit is a 'bad' unit.

Seriously. You've made your point. Several times. Other people don't agree. Maybe step away from the computer and allow them to talk about it without adopting the broken record approach? You've stated what you think, which is great, and fine. But there comes a point where you're just trying to knock down dissenting opinion for no other reason than the fact they disagree with you, and won't allow any opinion but your own.

I'm 50/50 on this. That shows that it might not be as clear cut as you think it is. So accept you've made your point, and either raise a new one, or leave people to amicably discuss it amongst themselves.

 Ailaros wrote:
As for coteaz, yeah, I could definitely see him in this role as well. I guess the problem is that he is more expensive (depending on how you have him set up), and he also doesn't fill your mandatory HQ slot. It would be interesting to see coteaz with prescience/precog and iron arm/weaken.

You are right on that. I just don't see the Primaris being able to keep up with the "Other" big boy psykers. Unless you base a big part of your list to support him. So with that I'm thinking is that IG is not the codex for psychic powers. I also agree that he can be very useful as a cheap HQ. If you're set on trying him I think putting him in a blob squad for the LOS and to be able to buff more dudes would be an ok use. A kitted out vet squad would get very costly quick. I'm still thinking the GK Inquisition is the way to go if you want psykers that you can use your IG models for. I hope you post some battle reports or articles on your experiences using the PP as I don't get to have a match very often.

Also the new FAQ made the PBS psyker mastery level 1 so you all know.

They always were mastery one, though, right? In any case, that's how I played him in the particular game in question. I didn't have the most recent FAQ on me. In any case, having two dice to roll and casting one power is still good enough.

You're right that a primaris won't compete against Tigurus or any "big boy" psykers, but that's actually not important. One could easily make the argument that a senior officer with a power fist can't compete against top tier close combat beast either, which is certainly true, but, likewise, doesn't matter.

Because you don't need to be the best, you just need to be better than what you're attacking. Those rare times I come across mephiston or abbadon, I'll just leave my officer in the chimera and shoot it to death. Meanwhile, I DO have the rest of my army. In a recent game I charged my CCS in against a demon prince because it only had 1 wound left, thanks to the rest of my shooting. Will a powerfist CCS be able to beat a full-strength DP? Of course not. Will it be able to take the last wound off while only losing abblative command staff? Very possibly.

And also, just because there is "the best" out there does not nullify the existence of "the rest". A jedi psyker is more than capable of beating up a devestator squad, for example, or a troops choice holding onto an objective in cover. In fact, a vast majority of the time, my punchy stuff can handle themselves just fine, or with just a touch of shooting stuff before.

As such, it's not useful to ask "is it the best?" but rather to ask "can it be useful most of the time?"

The answer to the first is no, but the answer to the second is yes. Something that can be useful most of the time doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.

It was in the new FAQ and was magenta so I guess it's just official now. I'm going to have to recheck it when I get home to make sure I'm not crazy.

I agree with you there. So you plan on having both the CCS and Psyker in one squad? Or just one of them?

I actually did do a list with Coteaz, Inquisitor, GK techmarine and a Allied Primaris Psyker. I never had so many psychic powers before! I took them to help out with close combat because I was fighting Nurgle deamons (which all have shrouding and always hang out in cover) so all my shooting was largely wasted my previous games. They were definitely useful that game. Edit: I did add 2 hell hounds as well.

So yes having the option to finish off something in the assualt phase when your shooting fails is great. Knowing my luck though if I didn't have more than one "jedi" the one time I would need them they would be on the other side of the board. :/

That's how I did it this time... and probably how I'd do it again, I guess. I could see him being in a vet squad, though, to increase close combat coverage.

In any case, I think the best use is probably with a mech list to lighten the points load on HQ. Yes, a CCS with meltaguns in a chimera is good, but I already HAVE meltaguns in chimeras. And on scoring units to boot.

Meanwhile, a CCS with powerfist and 3 meltas in a chimera costs 150 points to the psyker's 70. Said CCS is, of course, much better than the psyker, but is it better than a psyker, 4 multimelta sponsons and a plasma pistol? Not necessarily.

It's the fact that you MUST take a chimera for a CCS in a mech list while the primaris can hitch a ride with a squad that already has one that makes the difference.

Q: What Psychic Mastery Level is a Primaris Psyker? (p26)
A: Mastery Level 1.

Magneta: Q: What Mastery Level is a Psyker Battle Squad? (p47)
A: Mastery Level 1.

Very true, my favorite way to run a psyker was to let him go with a vet squad. Like you said you already have enough meltaguns so you wouldn't need a CCS. Let those sponsons do that work.

Looking forward to a battle report to see how it works out.

Edit: Thanks Blaggard.

I have my Primaris with a Staff: it is +2 Str and AP4, enough to tackle most things that usually ends up in melee with me, yet again since he is Mastery Level 1, he's only got a single point to spend per round, meaning it's either lighting bolts or saving it and hope that he'll somehow manage to get to his initiative phase in melee come the opponent's turn (if an assault even happens) .

The book powers are interesting true, but for my army, it is not advantageous to take them, so I stick with the lightning bolts and the conceal power.

Also, were it not for the 'choice' of weapon type we can choose, the Primaris would just be another singe 'as is' as an independent character, just without the panache of an independent character. It doesn't even have gear choice like any other generic HQ for crying out loud.

 Ailaros wrote:
As such, it's not useful to ask "is it the best?" but rather to ask "can it be useful most of the time?"

No, the question to ask is can it be more useful than the other things you can bring. Pretty much every unit in the game can be useful most of the time, even the worst units are better than nothing at all. So the question is whether an option will do better than the other things you could have brought instead, and that's a test the melee psyker fails.

 Ailaros wrote:
Meanwhile, a CCS with powerfist and 3 meltas in a chimera costs 150 points to the psyker's 70.

Why are we talking about bad units? CCS get 4x melta in a Chimera (total: 145 points), they don't waste points on powerfists instead of melta guns.

It's the fact that you MUST take a chimera for a CCS in a mech list while the primaris can hitch a ride with a squad that already has one that makes the difference.

Except that putting the psyker in a Chimera completely defeats the purpose of a melee psyker. Now that you can't disembark and assault from a stationary vehicle you have to spend at least one turn out in the open before you can do anything, and veteran squads that disembark from their Chimeras tend to die before they can do very much. It's even less of a viable option than putting the psyker in a foot blob.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I have my Primaris with a Staff: it is +2 Str and AP4, enough to tackle most things that usually ends up in melee with me, yet again since he is Mastery Level 1, he's only got a single point to spend per round, meaning it's either lighting bolts or saving it and hope that he'll somehow manage to get to his initiative phase in melee come the opponent's turn (if an assault even happens) .

Warp Charge regenerates every player turn.

You can spend it on Lightning in your turn, then it comes back at the beginning of your opponent's turn, then you can force-sword in your opponent's turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
As such, it's not useful to ask "is it the best?" but rather to ask "can it be useful most of the time?"

No, the question to ask is can it be more useful than the other things you can bring. Pretty much every unit in the game can be useful most of the time, even the worst units are better than nothing at all. So the question is whether an option will do better than the other things you could have brought instead, and that's a test the melee psyker fails.

 Ailaros wrote:
Meanwhile, a CCS with powerfist and 3 meltas in a chimera costs 150 points to the psyker's 70.

Why are we talking about bad units? CCS get 4x melta in a Chimera (total: 145 points), they don't waste points on powerfists instead of melta guns.

But that stuff is for the Army-list forum.

I'm fairly certain this thread isn't about "Should the Primaris Psyker be a viable tourney unit?"

It's definitely not.

It's moreso about "How should I use the Primaris Psyker?"

Shooting down the PP as a terrible unit, while accurate, isn't all that relevant.

-Captain

 TheCaptain wrote:
I'm fairly certain this thread isn't about "Should the Primaris Psyker be a viable tourney unit?"

And, again, yes it is. The OP asks "can this be a viable unit" not "I know it's not a viable unit, but if I'm going to use my cool model what's the best way to do it", and Ailaros continues to post arguments that it is a viable unit.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
I'm fairly certain this thread isn't about "Should the Primaris Psyker be a viable tourney unit?"

And, again, yes it is. The OP asks "can this be a viable unit" not "I know it's not a viable unit, but if I'm going to use my cool model what's the best way to do it", and Ailaros continues to post arguments that it is a viable unit.

Almost. You're right that the Op is asking, '"can this be a viable unit".

Your error is in assuming that within that question is the second question, 'Can this be a viable competitive unit?'. The two are not mutually inclusive.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I have my Primaris with a Staff: it is +2 Str and AP4, enough to tackle most things that usually ends up in melee with me, yet again since he is Mastery Level 1, he's only got a single point to spend per round, meaning it's either lighting bolts or saving it and hope that he'll somehow manage to get to his initiative phase in melee come the opponent's turn (if an assault even happens) .

Warp Charge regenerates every player turn.

You can spend it on Lightning in your turn, then it comes back at the beginning of your opponent's turn, then you can force-sword in your opponent's turn.

Really? I thought it was every controlling player's turn..well, that just made him a bit better.

So really we should be comming up with tactics on how to use the Primaris Psyker in the best way.

First thing that comes to mind is to have him and a vet squad in a chimera/valkyrie and to grab/assualt an objective with him near the end of the game. The biomancy powers could buff the vets CC ability and you can actually give them shotguns for the assualt 2. So thats one idea.

Last turn attempt to to steal an objective.
A way to defend an objective from assualt.

Wish there were wargear options for him like every other psyker in the game. :p

Yeah, I do find that a little curious myself. Not even meltabombs?

I almost wonder if psykers will wind up going back into the adviser pool like priests and techpriests wither they came.

Ketara wrote:Almost. You're right that the Op is asking, '"can this be a viable unit".

Your error is in assuming that within that question is the second question, 'Can this be a viable competitive unit?'. The two are not mutually inclusive.

If something is viable that means it's competitive. I don't see the distinction.

It seems to me that the psyker is reasonably priced for all the stuff you get from him, and has several abilities that can tangibly help your army. If that's not "competitive" to you, then I'd seriously question your definition of the word "competitive".

One thing that the Primaris can bring with taking biomancy is the Enfeeble power...which can act as a huge force multiplier for your shooting. While I agree with the original poster that a primaris can be a useful tool in the toolbox, I think it really comes down to which discipline you chose for him. He can roll for 2 powers. which means a 33% chance to get the power you want. We've already establish a staff is a common upgrad to the force weapon for the benefits. +2 strength means Str 5. This has the flexibility to be used vs. rear armor 10 in a pinch. Biomancy is more beneficial just than Iron Arm. Instead of thinking solely close combat. Look to the other powers advantages:

•Enfeeble: This is a really potent power if used wisely. Especially when your army is primarily shooting based. Taking opponent's bikes down to T4 means your battle cannons and MLs suddenly wreck them. Using it to slow down fast units is helpful too. Taking a Str4 unit to Strength 3 is helpful. Taking Strength 3 units to Str 2 is helpful. This is a good force multiplier power. Enfeeble also stacks. I can easily see a dual Enfeeble army for IG working really well. It's worth exploring.

•Endurance: This is great for blobs as it allows your blob greater durability and the ability to move and shoot your heavy weapons. Very useful

•Life Leech: Allows your Psyker to be a wound battery if close enough to the enemy. Lost a wound earlier? Get one back.

•Warp Speed: A good power if facing armies with an equal toughness to yours. Otherwise passing to the Primary power would be more useful

•Haemorrage: This is a fineness power but if targeted at the right unit..can be devastating.

I think overall, the primaris is useful and competitive if the player is a good general. Since he's relatively cheap for what he brings, I think having him and a CCS isn't that big of investment of points. I think Peregrine's short sightedness gets the best of him most of the time. There are a variety of units I can take in an IG army and be competitive with. His recipe for winning with IG isn't the only one. To think so is hubris..pure and simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This>

You're right that a primaris won't compete against Tigurus or any "big boy" psykers, but that's actually not important. One could easily make the argument that a senior officer with a power fist can't compete against top tier close combat beast either, which is certainly true, but, likewise, doesn't matter.

Because you don't need to be the best, you just need to be better than what you're attacking. Those rare times I come across mephiston or abbadon, I'll just leave my officer in the chimera and shoot it to death. Meanwhile, I DO have the rest of my army. In a recent game I charged my CCS in against a demon prince because it only had 1 wound left, thanks to the rest of my shooting. Will a powerfist CCS be able to beat a full-strength DP? Of course not. Will it be able to take the last wound off while only losing abblative command staff? Very possibly.

And also, just because there is "the best" out there does not nullify the existence of "the rest". A jedi psyker is more than capable of beating up a devestator squad, for example, or a troops choice holding onto an objective in cover. In fact, a vast majority of the time, my punchy stuff can handle themselves just fine, or with just a touch of shooting stuff before.

As such, it's not useful to ask "is it the best?" but rather to ask "can it be useful most of the time?"

The answer to the first is no, but the answer to the second is yes. Something that can be useful most of the time doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.

I think I'll have to vote a no for the competitiveness of the build because of the aforementioned CCS and the psyker's weak statline for a combat character.

I still have to try that build out because it seems like a lot of fun but I'm not expecting it to do any miracles.

 EnormousName wrote:
I think I'll have to vote a no for the competitiveness of the build because of the aforementioned CCS and the psyker's weak statline for a combat character.

I still have to try that build out because it seems like a lot of fun but I'm not expecting it to do any miracles.

Tell me how you like it the first time after you enfeeble a T4 unit and watch multi-lasers cause instant death.

 Ailaros wrote:


It seems to me that the psyker is reasonably priced for all the stuff you get from him, and has several abilities that can tangibly help your army. If that's not "competitive" to you, then I'd seriously question your definition of the word "competitive".

He's reasonably priced for all the stuff you get from him.

But none of the stuff is all that important in a competitive IG list.

That's why he's not competitively viable.