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 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Arachnid-X wrote:
Then again there was the time when the tau asked for aid from the dark eldar. Though it didn't really work out for them, the Idea that they would consider including dark eldar in any thing can't be all that good.

I loved that incident; that was one hell of a way to show the Tau they still have much to learn.

I particularly loved the part in that section where the dark eldar fight alongside the Tau for the second time against the Tyranids and they spot the different (and rather familiar) colour of the the haemonculi constructs skin in this battle compared to the first. Definately an 'oh s**t' moment for the Tau and a serious eye opener too I would imagine!

My impression of the new dex is, one shouldn't be comparing the Tau and Imperium in terms of "niceness." Rather, I'd say the Tau are simply resource conscious whereas the Imperium is not. The Tau do not throw away Firewarriors in attrition tactics because the Ethereals are nice. They avoid this practice because they consider it a waste of resources. Now, if there were as many Firewarriors as, say, Imperial Guardsmen, I wonder if they would have the same attitude. Point is, the difference between Tau and Imperium really seems to come down to scale for the most part. The other big difference is that the Tau do not believe that every other race must be exterminated. They are okay with keeping around subservient races.

 Manchu wrote:
But we explicitly know the Firecaste is the product of eugenics. The Tau state does regulate reproduction among Tau. The Tau, unlike 21st-century humans, do not seem to regard this practice as morally offensive.

The tau race has a taboo to breed outside their caste. This is inspired by 20-21st century Asian states, esp. India and Japan. In India you still have remnants of the caste system (which was in full swing 1st half 20th century )with no inter-caste marriage allowed, in Japan you still have very high hurdles of Japanese having children with non-Japanese, with the offspring facing massive discrimination until today. In Europe, you still have classes that have certain (declining) hurdles to inter-class marriage, but those were extremely high 50-100 years ago. Just calling all this inhuman eugenics is missing the point totally.

I repeat that the new Codex changed the official background of Tau slightly, making the Tau neither peace-loving hippies nor nazis-with-better-PR. As the ethereals lost the absolute pheromones-did-it control, there is more room for individual behavior not in line with official Tau policy. But still, sterilization of humans is not part of it.

I hate this thread, it drags me back.

 Kroothawk wrote:


I repeat that the new Codex changed the official background of Tau slightly, making the Tau neither peace-loving hippies nor nazis-with-better-PR. As the ethereals lost the absolute pheromones-did-it control, there is more room for individual behavior not in line with official Tau policy.

Warseer poster says that Ethereal control over Tau is absolute.

But still, sterilization of humans is not part of it.

Has happened in fluff sources. Deal with it.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
I hate this thread, it drags me back.

 Kroothawk wrote:


I repeat that the new Codex changed the official background of Tau slightly, making the Tau neither peace-loving hippies nor nazis-with-better-PR. As the ethereals lost the absolute pheromones-did-it control, there is more room for individual behavior not in line with official Tau policy.

Warseer poster says that Ethereal control over Tau is absolute.

But still, sterilization of humans is not part of it.

Has happened in fluff sources. Deal with it.

Then the anonymous Warseer poster has not read the complete Codex.
There is no mention of sterilization in any product by Games Workshop, deal with it.
BTW FFG created the remote sector so that they could invent things freely without disturbing the official fluff. And, as said, the new Codex change a few things.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
I hate this thread, it drags me back.

 Kroothawk wrote:


I repeat that the new Codex changed the official background of Tau slightly, making the Tau neither peace-loving hippies nor nazis-with-better-PR. As the ethereals lost the absolute pheromones-did-it control, there is more room for individual behavior not in line with official Tau policy.

Warseer poster says that Ethereal control over Tau is absolute.

But still, sterilization of humans is not part of it.

Has happened in fluff sources. Deal with it.

Then the anonymous Warseer poster has not read the complete Codex.

I will have to get the codex myself to see. But to be frank I don't believe you.

There is no mention of sterilization in any product by Games Workshop, deal with it.

Irrelevant. There are other 40k fluff sources. Whether you acknowledge is not my problem.

BTW FFG created the remote sector so that they could invent things freely without disturbing the official fluff. And, as said, the new Codex change a few things.

False. The calixis sector was created by Black Industries which was a part of GW. The Calixis sector is shown in the 6th edition rulebook. The other areas are tied to the Calixis sector thus they also are part of 40k fluff.

And what are these great changes you go on about?

 Kroothawk wrote:
Just calling all this inhuman eugenics is missing the point totally.

Read the Firewarrior entry. They are bred for size and strength. Eugenics plain and simple.

 Kroothawk wrote:
As the ethereals lost the absolute pheromones-did-it control

They didn't lose it. They never had it. You yourself argued as much for years. The new dex changes nothing in this regard. There has always been room for individual misbehavior (Farsight) and the Tau government has always been totalitarian.


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Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Warseer poster says that Ethereal control over Tau is absolute.

He's paraphrasing -- poorly. The Ethereal entry says they seek the advice of other castes but sovereignty remains with them.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
As the ethereals lost the absolute pheromones-did-it control

They didn't lose it. They never had it. You yourself argued as much for years. The new dex changes nothing in this regard. There has always been room for individual misbehavior (Farsight) and the Tau government has always been totalitarian.

Indeed. The Pheremone thing was just a theory.

Anyway, Tau are perfect so you are wrong about Tau being Totalitarian !


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Warseer poster says that Ethereal control over Tau is absolute.

He's paraphrasing -- poorly. The Ethereal entry says they seek the advice of other castes but sovereignty remains with them.

I see.

Then, I apologize to you Kroothawk.

To be clear, what is meant is that they are the ones in charge. The other castes cannot veto their decisions or anything. They are free to ignore the other castes' advice.

 Manchu wrote:
To be clear, what is meant is that they are the ones in charge. The other castes cannot veto their decisions or anything. They are free to ignore the other castes' advice.

Nothing new then. The Ethereals being top boss is something I already know about from before.

Exactly. The new dex doesn't really change the Tau, as near as I can tell.

What I keep wondering is that how biased people get during these debates, both for and against. Bad communication, I say,

I am quite certain that most view Tau to be "good" only when compared to the Imperium, which is almost objectively a more difficult place to live.

This, however, doesn't mean every Tau colony is a magic kingdom of rainbows and gumdrops. It just means that there are drones to do the menial labor and the overlords will not shoot you for the crime of heresy. They try brainwashing you first, then kill you if that doesn't work.

I reiterate: The Tau are not good. It's a totalitarian Empire with the ruling caste that has absolute power over military, infrastructure and politics. Everything that impedes the advancement of the Greater Good will be dealt with, one way or another. And this is where Tau Empire differs from the Imperium.

The Imperium will use force almost exclusively to deal with any problem. Sentient aliens? Purge. Heretics? Purge.

The Tau only give you a chance to survive, by serving, no matter your previous beliefs, gods or race. The individual will only be robbed of his freedom, but not his life.

It isn't that much better, but better none the less.

Also, as a throwback to the sterilization debacle:

It really isn't all that effective a method for control. If the regime is so weak it needs to resort to this particular method, it is already too weak to suppress a proper rebellion. Inciting the populace further will most likely not help.

Rather you let them reproduce, take the children for indoctrination and raise a new "untainted" generation, without the bothersome views of the parents.

Lumipon wrote:
They try brainwashing you first, then kill you if that doesn't work.

Sounds like the Imperium to me -- at least regarding humans. Again, the real difference between the Imperium and the Tau is scale.

Having played Tau since they dropped back in the early 2000's, I've seen & heard this argument so many times.. Here's the thing - there is no good race/faction in 40k. It's pretty much spelled out for you in every fluff source there is.

The reason this always comes up in favor of the Tau is because the (obviously biased) codex informs the player/reader of the amount of diplomacy that is directed towards a populace the Tau want to "integrate" into their society. They make it seem that the Tau appear as distinguished diplomats, promising equality, technology, etc. on the governor or leader in order to make them see the way of the Greater Good. If you accept, great, it's beer & drones all around! If you don't - and here is where they become no different than any other race in the game - the diplomats leave and before you know it, you're the target of a full scale invasion with the full weight of the Tau Empire on your shoulders. They may not just declare exterminatus like the Imperium, but don't expect any leniancy. They gave you your chance to join them of your own volition, now you WILL be subjugated and you WILL be re-educated. Your old way of life will be destroyed and you will be forced to live in a society where you have absolutely no say over what happens to you.

Now, after that is complete & your defences have been smashed and the water castes are setting up the re-education centers & the earth caste is engineering new cities and hab-zones for their new 'subjects' they will talk about how they see you as equals and you & your peoples contribution to the Greater Good will be rewarded and viewed with promise by the honored Ethereals, but in reality you are just another resource to take advantage of & use until it is no longer necessary. The realism being is that in 3 or 4 generations, after all the indoctrination and re-education, they will have a fully integrated - if not necessarily equal - human society that truly believes in the Greater Good. Sure, they're probably sterilized here & there, or people may disappear now & again, but the fact that it happens will go unnoticed because it is just how things are.

Living under the Tau is really no different than living under the Imperium. You may have a better quality of life simply because you're not on a hive world or manufactorum world, but you have no more freedom or say in your life than any Imperial scribe does.

~Vryce

I fully expected that the new fluff would include the Tau Empire inducting a new race who had mastered more efficient FTL travel, and this would lead to a huge expansion in the empire. In turn, this would cause the Tau to move even farther from "good" toward "morally ambiguous" as they are exposed to more and more horrors of the wider galaxy.

If they are not allowed to expand beyond their tiny empire, they should be an altruistic, "good guy" race. Many have argued that this doesn't fit with the established fluff, but I think it actually serves as the exception that proves the rule. "There are good guys in this game, but they are only one faction, and by far the smallest faction, and will probably be the first to be wiped out." Grim.

I would rather see them take one path or the other, rather than the worst of both (tiny empire and morally grey, just like everyone else).

The Tau just realized that they can trade protection for freedom and get willing slaves. Even the thralls of the Iron Warriors turn their noses at them.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Warseer poster says that Ethereal control over Tau is absolute.

He's paraphrasing -- poorly. The Ethereal entry says they seek the advice of other castes but sovereignty remains with them.

I see.
Then, I apologize to you Kroothawk.

Just one example: When the ethereals appeared first, it is not anymore "by pheromones/mind control/magic/whatever" everybody stopped fighting and loved peace, but ethereals talking to all sides and convincing them that mass suicide is a bad idea. The (soon to be) Fire caste accepts that as the last faction, some time after the talks and watching the other factions be happy with peace. So no absolute control. This is a massive change, running through the whole book. Ethereals are still the "ruling" class, but the ruling is done with consultation of all representatives and not in the "I am boss give me your wife and money" style. No Tau strives for material wealth, not even ethereals. Ethereals guarantee the equilibrium between all castes that is the basis for 1000+ years of peace among Tau. They are basically the referee class making the system function.

And yes, reading the current Codex helps when discussing the current Tau background

@Manchu: I just reread the Fire Warrior entry. No mention of breeding or eugebics. Some traits just "increased" in a caste specific culture, that seems similar to Spartans.

In the old codex, the Ethereals came into both camps and convinced rather than ordered both to avoid further war. This has not changed in the new dex. Simialarly, according to the new dex, Ethereals remain the final decision makers in Tau society. The old dex did not state or even imply that Ethereals never asked other castes for opinions or advice.

Is Aun shi back ? He was the only tau i could tolerate anyway its already been said there are no good guys and no matter which race you live under you will be used and abused in factthe only race with any sense of morality are the Eldar as they spend the majority of their time trying to save the galaxy from the Nids they are the only race who arnt always acting in their own best interests

Yes, Aun Shi is in the book.

Cool is he in game ?

Yeah, he's an SC.

 Manchu wrote:

Lumipon wrote:
They try brainwashing you first, then kill you if that doesn't work.

Sounds like the Imperium to me -- at least regarding humans. Again, the real difference between the Imperium and the Tau is scale.

I think the difference is time as much as scale. I see the Tau as similar to pre-imperial humanity at the start of the Dark Age of Technology. An alien representation of what mankind was like before the corruption by the warp set in. Morally ambivalent, overconfident and relatively ignorant of the dangers of the 40k universe.

 Antario wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Lumipon wrote:
They try brainwashing you first, then kill you if that doesn't work.

Sounds like the Imperium to me -- at least regarding humans. Again, the real difference between the Imperium and the Tau is scale.

I think the difference is time as much as scale. I see the Tau as similar to pre-imperial humanity at the start of the Dark Age of Technology. An alien representation of what mankind was like before the corruption by the warp set in. Morally ambivalent, overconfident and relatively ignorant of the dangers of the 40k universe.

Actually DAoT humanity are lot like IOM humanity in that they did conquer alien planets or exterminated them if they were in the mood to do so.

Further posts about the illegal downloading of copyrighted material will result in suspensions.

 reds8n wrote:
Further posts about the illegal downloading of copyrighted material will result in suspensions.

Post about illegal behaviour removed.
reds8n

I wonder if the tau would be so benevolent if they had as many people as IG.. I mean lets face it they NEED the kroot etc cause they very few... Whereas if they can't get what they want out of them... Well the new Dex reads about the first race that got folded.. "Got sick and died" all at once.. Mmhmm.. And if I came to "not enough recourses.. Well humans it was a good run.." That's not benevolent... That's a race of Nazi's..

 Spazamataz wrote:
I wonder if the tau would be so benevolent if they had as many people as IG.. I mean lets face it they NEED the kroot etc cause they very few... Whereas if they can't get what they want out of them... Well the new Dex reads about the first race that got folded.. "Got sick and died" all at once.. Mmhmm.. And if I came to "not enough recourses.. Well humans it was a good run.." That's not benevolent... That's a race of Nazi's..

Yeah, that's what I thought too. Now, let's wait for someone to say "Its just coincidence! The Tau would never go so low as to commit genocide unless the other species is so inimical to the Greater Good!"

locked due to posters inability to follow simple instructions.