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 Tiger9gamer wrote:
or you can take 6 grenade launchers and rad/stasis things. or use rad if you miss the first shot.

all shooting is simo for a unit right. So you cannot do that

I worded it wrong, pardon my stupidity

checked codex. for every three knights you get a nade launcher.


And never heard that, but I don't really want to get into a rule pissing contest with you.

No pissing contest, he's right. All shooting for the unit is resolved at the same time. You can Rad a unit and then have another unit ID them with plasma (assuming T4), but not Rad them and ID them with the same squad. If you're going to be charging the Stasis is better against I4/5 enemies, if you're already striking first then Rad.

andystache wrote:
No pissing contest, he's right. All shooting for the unit is resolved at the same time. You can Rad a unit and then have another unit ID them with plasma (assuming T4), but not Rad them and ID them with the same squad. If you're going to be charging the Stasis is better against I4/5 enemies, if you're already striking first then Rad.

actually you can because because the -1 toughness happens when the unit takes a hit before you roll to wound. It specifically says in the codex a model hit by a rad grenade, not wounded, just hit takes the -1 toughness.

Mythantor wrote:

andystache wrote:
No pissing contest, he's right. All shooting for the unit is resolved at the same time. You can Rad a unit and then have another unit ID them with plasma (assuming T4), but not Rad them and ID them with the same squad. If you're going to be charging the Stasis is better against I4/5 enemies, if you're already striking first then Rad.

actually you can because because the -1 toughness happens when the unit takes a hit before you roll to wound. It specifically says in the codex a model hit by a rad grenade, not wounded, just hit takes the -1 toughness.

Well after a check of the codex, BRB and associated FAQs I can happily say that I was wrong about that! Have an exalt and my thanks

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Terminators are not better than RWBKs in any significant way, and a Ravenwing army is far superior to Deathwing. Ravenwing won at TSFHT, proving they are as competitive as anything in the field today.

There hasn't been a single top 10 placing DW list in any tournament this year.

What you misunderstand, Ailaros, is that Ravenwing outshoots any small arms force (except another RW) by a factor of 4. Scout move means there isn't anywhere on the board you can hide from 80+ twin-linked bolter shots on the
first turn, which will wreck most blob/foot armies. Mobility means you bring to bear the entirety of your army on a single part of your opponents, ensuring maximum efficiency. RWBKs are much better than Terminators in cc because they move 12", ignore terrain, and can Sweeping Advance at I4 and Hit and Run, and strike at initiative with 4 attacks on the charge. Hit and Run allows you to slingshot/reposition, and shoot/charge a second time. Termies stay locked in combat and can't chase units which run away, leaving them exposed to firepower. It's understandable since you've never played a RW army before, or played against poor RW players, but in the hands of a capable general they are extremely deadly.

There really isn't much reason to use the Standard of Fortitude in a RW army- now RCS can be 5-man an apothecary is far better. 5-man RCS with Sammael, Librarian rolling Invisibility, and an attached Techmarine with Apothecary should prove quite a tough nut to crack.

 Blaggard wrote:
RWBK's ain't scoring anyway and don't take up FOC. More shrouds or single unit MM speeders.

One Darkshroud is enough for any army, in general I find it pretty useless because most of the time another bike squad is better. Single MM speeders are expensive and terrible, single MM attack bikes synergise with your Banner and can score.

To answer the OP's question, Black Knights aren't any tougher than normal bikers but far more deadly in terms of shooting and assault. Having them lead the charge isn't always the best idea (opponents tend to shoot the things in front first) and since their most effective range is 9" or less I usually turbo-boost them in the first turn to get that 2+ cover save. The important thing is positioning; since they ignore terrain you can always abuse this by moving out of LOS and then charging over in your turn, etc. Even so, any firepower they attract is sort of good because they're not shooting your scoring bikes.

andystache wrote:No pissing contest, he's right. All shooting for the unit is resolved at the same time. You can Rad a unit and then have another unit ID them with plasma (assuming T4), but not Rad them and ID them with the same squad. If you're going to be charging the Stasis is better against I4/5 enemies, if you're already striking first then Rad.

Ment that the bikes shots arn't instant death when they shoot. I ment that if one rad grenade missed, another grenade launcher can shoot one more rad grenade to actually hit the unit. pardon me for confusing you.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Terminators are not better than RWBKs in any significant way, and a Ravenwing army is far superior to Deathwing. Ravenwing won at TSFHT, proving they are as competitive as anything in the field today.

There hasn't been a single top 10 placing DW list in any tournament this year.

What you misunderstand, Ailaros, is that Ravenwing outshoots any small arms force (except another RW) by a factor of 4. Scout move means there isn't anywhere on the board you can hide from 80+ twin-linked bolter shots on the
first turn, which will wreck most blob/foot armies. Mobility means you bring to bear the entirety of your army on a single part of your opponents, ensuring maximum efficiency. RWBKs are much better than Terminators in cc because they move 12", ignore terrain, and can Sweeping Advance at I4 and Hit and Run, and strike at initiative with 4 attacks on the charge. Hit and Run allows you to slingshot/reposition, and shoot/charge a second time. Termies stay locked in combat and can't chase units which run away, leaving them exposed to firepower. It's understandable since you've never played a RW army before, or played against poor RW players, but in the hands of a capable general they are extremely deadly.

There really isn't much reason to use the Standard of Fortitude in a RW army- now RCS can be 5-man an apothecary is far better. 5-man RCS with Sammael, Librarian rolling Invisibility, and an attached Techmarine with Apothecary should prove quite a tough nut to crack.

 Blaggard wrote:
RWBK's ain't scoring anyway and don't take up FOC. More shrouds or single unit MM speeders.

One Darkshroud is enough for any army, in general I find it pretty useless because most of the time another bike squad is better. Single MM speeders are expensive and terrible, single MM attack bikes synergise with your Banner and can score.

To answer the OP's question, Black Knights aren't any tougher than normal bikers but far more deadly in terms of shooting and assault. Having them lead the charge isn't always the best idea (opponents tend to shoot the things in front first) and since their most effective range is 9" or less I usually turbo-boost them in the first turn to get that 2+ cover save. The important thing is positioning; since they ignore terrain you can always abuse this by moving out of LOS and then charging over in your turn, etc. Even so, any firepower they attract is sort of good because they're not shooting your scoring bikes.

Thanks for this in depth post! I'm only thinking about the banner of fortitude against tau or chaos to make them a little more survivable.

The only place for Fort banner is in a Black Knight Spam list with 20+ Black Knights and Darkshroud.

Today I made one:

Sammael
Techmarine, Bike
Librarian, Lvl 2,Bike
5-Man RCS, Standard of Fortitude
5-Man RCS, Ravenwing Banner
5-Man RCS

RAS. Melta,
RAS, Melta
AB, MM x2

5-Man RWBK, Meltabombs
5-Man RWBK, Meltabombs
Darkshroud
1850pts

25 Bikers + 3 ICs in your face in turn two, all with FNP and 3+/2+ Cover saves.

You posted this in one of my threads before.... It still doesn't really work, I think. for one, Tech marines can not take a command squad... nat least I think they can't

andystache wrote:
No they don't. Both stasis and rad specify one or more grenades inflicts the -1, not -1 per grenade. Vast stasis replaces stasis specifically to prevent stacking

My bad, getting carried away with new FAQ's and not reading it properly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
The only place for Fort banner is in a Black Knight Spam list with 20+ Black Knights and Darkshroud.

Today I made one:

Sammael
Techmarine, Bike
Librarian, Lvl 2,Bike
5-Man RCS, Standard of Fortitude
5-Man RCS, Ravenwing Banner
5-Man RCS

RAS. Melta,
RAS, Melta
AB, MM x2

5-Man RWBK, Meltabombs
5-Man RWBK, Meltabombs
Darkshroud
1850pts

25 Bikers + 3 ICs in your face in turn two, all with FNP and 3+/2+ Cover saves.

That's a good list. With RWCS's being so much better than Plain old BK's these days will people be buying apothecaries for each squad? Becasue if you can take 3 RWCS then that is 5 points more than the banner of fortitude and doesn't give a bubble. Surely the banner is worth it in that instance even without filling your FA slots with more BK's?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
You posted this in one of my threads before.... It still doesn't really work, I think. for one, Tech marines can not take a command squad... nat least I think they can't

They can.

And servitors unlock additional Techmarines. However they use up a HQ FOC slot, but not a HQ Forge slot.

they can? huh... I need to read my codex better X-X

There are some questions about the legality of the Techmarine/RWCS combo. The PA command squad specifically disallows Techmarine unlocking, but the RWCS only disallows other RWCS unlocking. The crux of the argument is what "HQ Choice" means. If HQ choice means a selection from the HQ section then the Techmarine on bike can roll with an RWCS, but you also get the infinite Techmarine/Servitor problem. If HQ choice means something that occupies an HQ Force Org slot then the Techmarine doesn't unlock the RWCS, the rub here is that if the Techmarine isn't an HQ Choice why is he disallowed in the PA Command squad.

Infinite Techmarine/Servitor isn't a problem because the Servitor uses a HQ Force slot. It doesn't use a HQ Forge slot. There's a 'g' instead of 'c' in the paper copies.

I know you're being funny, but sadly that makes a good case for no RWCS for the Techmarine on bike. The PA Command squad doesn't disallow Servitors, so technically RAW a Techmarine on a bike with a unit of Servitors would unlock an RWCS and a PACS, which I just can't see being what they were going for. On the other hand you've got Space Puppies taking 4 HQ's in one Forge Org (it sounds much better that way actually) and they pee on trees and have "special dates" in sweat lodges. Apologizes for the tangent, but c'mon Space Puppies are just silly

The Ravenwing Command Squad entry specifically says that any HQ choice on a bike automatically unlocks a RWCS.

Techmarine on Bike = HQ slot on bike = Ravenwing Command Squad.

90 points for three apothecaries which don't benefit the rest of the army, versus one standard which benefits everyone?

Hmm. Standard wins, I think. The Ravenwing Standard is also amazing, auto-pass hit and run is insane, as is 4d6 slingshot.

As far as I can tell you really want the Banner of Devastation, because it has more potential for abuse. You can turbo boost to spread its benefit around the whole army, which you can't do with the other banners.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind the previous statement if you're going with a Black Knight heavy list.

well, changed my mind for now with black knight heavy X-X i need to work on the RAS side of things. thinking that the banner of devastation is a bit much below 1500, so i'll gradually work up with what i have.

and is the command squad really that better? i mean, if you dont have banners.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Terminators are not better than RWBKs in any significant way, and a Ravenwing army is far superior to Deathwing. Ravenwing won at TSFHT, proving they are as competitive as anything in the field today.

There hasn't been a single top 10 placing DW list in any tournament this year.

To answer the OP's question, Black Knights aren't any tougher than normal bikers but far more deadly in terms of shooting and assault. Having them lead the charge isn't always the best idea (opponents tend to shoot the things in front first) and since their most effective range is 9" or less I usually turbo-boost them in the first turn to get that 2+ cover save. The important thing is positioning; since they ignore terrain you can always abuse this by moving out of LOS and then charging over in your turn, etc. Even so, any firepower they attract is sort of good because they're not shooting your scoring bikes.

I believe the tourney your reffering too took place in the northwest, and occured very early after the codex was released. I love playing dark angels but the more tournament results i see the more i think that this result was kind of an abberation. The hell drake faq has really put a hurtin' on ravenwing lists and i am not certain with the timing of this tourney win if the current helldrake ruling was in place.
The only placings i have seen for dark angels at major touneys so far (bao top 15) have been allies lists with vendettas and guard. Adepticon results have no dark angels in the top 15 although there are no metrics on the number of DA participants/lists. I think they are mid-tier amry at best that can be brought up by guard and vendettas which makes me sad. Very few pure armies place at the top of most tourneys but necron flyers figure prominently in any tourney that doesnt allow forge world. Granted im not privy to the results of every tournament across the country, so if i am wrong please diasabuse me of my error. Until dark angel flyers are fixed in some meaning full way, they are going to find themselves left behind in the power struggle for interplanetary dominance... And some tourneys too.

I will agree that bk are not too squishy but they have to be used in the right way not engaging too early and trying to hide in combat. The clicher for me is that they can run opponents down. This in my opinion makes them better than terminators.

@tiger - what do you mean that the banner of devastation is a bit much below 1500?

Polythemus wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Terminators are not better than RWBKs in any significant way, and a Ravenwing army is far superior to Deathwing. Ravenwing won at TSFHT, proving they are as competitive as anything in the field today.

There hasn't been a single top 10 placing DW list in any tournament this year.

To answer the OP's question, Black Knights aren't any tougher than normal bikers but far more deadly in terms of shooting and assault. Having them lead the charge isn't always the best idea (opponents tend to shoot the things in front first) and since their most effective range is 9" or less I usually turbo-boost them in the first turn to get that 2+ cover save. The important thing is positioning; since they ignore terrain you can always abuse this by moving out of LOS and then charging over in your turn, etc. Even so, any firepower they attract is sort of good because they're not shooting your scoring bikes.

I believe the tourney your reffering too took place in the northwest, and occured very early after the codex was released. I love playing dark angels but the more tournament results i see the more i think that this result was kind of an abberation. The hell drake faq has really put a hurtin' on ravenwing lists and i am not certain with the timing of this tourney win if the current helldrake ruling was in place.
The only placings i have seen for dark angels at major touneys so far (bao top 15) have been allies lists with vendettas and guard. Adepticon results have no dark angels in the top 15 although there are no metrics on the number of DA participants/lists. I think they are mid-tier amry at best that can be brought up by guard and vendettas which makes me sad. Very few pure armies place at the top of most tourneys but necron flyers figure prominently in any tourney that doesnt allow forge world. Granted im not privy to the results of every tournament across the country, so if i am wrong please diasabuse me of my error. Until dark angel flyers are fixed in some meaning full way, they are going to find themselves left behind in the power struggle for interplanetary dominance... And some tourneys too.

I will agree that bk are not too squishy but they have to be used in the right way not engaging too early and trying to hide in combat. The clicher for me is that they can run opponents down. This in my opinion makes them better than terminators.

@tiger - what do you mean that the banner of devastation is a bit much below 1500?

An aberration? You're implying he fluke'd and won the tournament somehow by sheer new codex grit. No, Ravenwing is extremely strong against most lists- the fact remains that the 100 Bolter RW alpha-strike is something very few armies can stand up against. Necron flyers are only good because they guarantee safe mobility across the board. If their scythes were skimmers like before they'd be mid tier, at best.



Helldrakes aren't all that. There were a grand total of three in Adepticon final 16, and one in the final four. No Helldrake spammer made it to the top 16.

I think ravenwing is great, but I don't think the strenght to the list is blackknights, the only blackknights worth taking is the command squad for banners, after that just take more ravenwings and bolter stuff to death. Blackknights is too many point in one unit that isn't all the tough.

With the FAQ change that let the ravenwing command squad take two more memebers, I see no point in taking black knights now. The command squad can have FnP and a banner.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


An aberration? You're implying he fluke'd and won the tournament somehow by sheer new codex grit. No, Ravenwing is extremely strong against most lists- the fact remains that the 100 Bolter RW alpha-strike is something very few armies can stand up against. Necron flyers are only good because they guarantee safe mobility across the board. If their scythes were skimmers like before they'd be mid tier, at best.

Helldrakes aren't all that. There were a grand total of three in Adepticon final 16, and one in the final four. No Helldrake spammer made it to the top 16.

If that is true how do you account for the shortage of da placings at top tournaments?

Can ravenwing cs Champs challenge? and be challenged? Same for apoth's?

Yes, they both become characters.

Shame the champ has to take the blade of caliban. If he could keep his hammer or take something else he might have been worth the 5 points.

Yes, BoC are shockingly bad. I don't bother with characters really in the command squad, you want to be doing as much rending dmg as possible anyway, not wasting attacks in a challenge.

Thinking of getting him just so some IC can join and not sit out every battle due to challenges.

Also, precision shots.

 Blaggard wrote:
You *could* spend 205 points giving FNP to a lot of T5 things. You could also spend 185 giving those T5 things 4 times the damage output at 24".

Ravenwing should not be moving as a clumped group; they should spread out and be able to move despite their command squad's position.

Loosey goosey for smooshey

Whoever said anything about a clumped group? You've got a 6" unit effecting range on a rectangular base that can turbo-boost to increase it's effective range. You cannot really turbo-boost a FNP banner to increase it's effective range. Of course if you do turbo-boost then you lose the Black Knight things they have (the grenade launcher, plasma talons and being decent in melee).

With the ability to purchase 5 bikers on the RCS I'm rethinking this. I cannot think of a situation where unless things have gone tits up the dakka banner is worse than the FNP banner in a RW force but I could understand where it could be useful in a force wanting to get into melee.

 Blaggard wrote:
Whoever said anything about a clumped group? You've got a 6" unit effecting range on a rectangular base that can turbo-boost to increase it's effective range. You cannot really turbo-boost a FNP banner to increase it's effective range. Of course if you do turbo-boost then you lose the Black Knight things they have (the grenade launcher, plasma talons and being decent in melee).

With the ability to purchase 5 bikers on the RCS I'm rethinking this. I cannot think of a situation where unless things have gone tits up the dakka banner is worse than the FNP banner in a RW force but I could understand where it could be useful in a force wanting to get into melee.

Mind explaining this for us?