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I have learned by reading over the past few weeks that the Divination (or regular BA powers) Librarian is the cheap and useful HQ choice for Blood Angels now. I have seen the strategy of delivering him in a Drop Pod with a Sternguard squad, to provide Shield cover saves, but don't know what other units you would place him in. Protecting a rear objective in the same way? WIth CC Terminators in a Land Raider? I would love to hear your thoughts.

I have a Captain in Terminator armor that I converted from the Black Reach set, and he could serve as a generic (and inexpensive) CC type character, paired with SS/TH/LC terminators in a Land Raider.

However, I am also curious about other characters, especially some of the ones that I have never used. I have read the recent streams about Mephiston, so I feel like I have a handle on his strengths and weaknesses. I AM still confused about why he is not able to join a squad--his entry in the Codex reads "Infantry" just like those of Corbulo, Tycho, and other characters like Dante have entries that read "Jump Infantry" so I don't understand why this is the case. Are ALL of the named characters now not considered ICs and therefore unable to join units? (surely not)

What do you think about these guys:

The Sanguinor intrigues me, but I would naturally pair him with SG and I know that they are costly and may just get shot to oblivion.

Dante seems over-priced and the fact that he can't use his special rule in a pairing with Vanguard veterans (and their Heroic Intervention) really makes me sad.

Astorath the Grim naturally pairs with DC, and I believe them to be nerfed in the current rules. So, he seems like a no go. Same really applies to Lemartes, as he is an upgrade to a DC squad (and a Jump Packed one, which is now ridiculously expensive).

Tycho: In his non-death company role, he seems pretty bad-a**, and I am definitely tempted to try him out. He's got great leadership, Initiative 5, cool weapons, and an Iron Halo for survivability. Has anyone ever used him? Is he worth it? Maybe stick HIM with a Sternguard squad in a Drop pod?

Corbulo: Why use him? He's 105 points, which is more than double the cost of a normal Sanguinary Priest, and he doesn't really seem to have much going for him, IMO. Str 5 attacks, and certainly he is very survivable with the 2+ FNP, but that's assuming that he doesn't get hit with a high STR weapon (which has been happening to my BA dudes a lot, negating FNP altogether).

I would love your guidance.

Captain: not enough gear options compared to vanilla counterpart.

Sanguinor: T4 and can't join units. Almost trivially easy to torrent to death. Makes me kinda sad, really

Dante: Oldest space marine chapter master. Not eternal warrior. 225 pts. Init 1 now. Sigh.

Asotrath the Grim: Another init 1 200+ character. Sigh.

Tycho: I really want to like regular Tycho. In fact, I DO like him. But he just doesn't quite do enough to justify not bringing a libby.

Corbulo: He's great. Only liability is that he's on foot. So put him in a pod with the Sternguard. That's his #1 job now. You can put him in a LR with ASM maybe? Discounted LR?

What points level do you normally play, Martel?

Would you ever bulk out with 2 HQs--maybe one with an Honor Guard? Man, I've got some sweet, converted, beautifully painted honor guard...

Yeah, I hear you about the "Not eternal Warrior"--doesn't make sense.

But why can't the Sanguinor or Mephiston join units?

Also, in that sense, Corbulo is better because even if he can't join units (can he?) his FNP/FC rules benefit everybody within 6"? How do you use him differently from a generic Sanguinary priest with the Sternguard?

I agree on Brother Corbulo!

He has the 2+ fnp. I usually add him and a BA librarian to a squad. That way he doubles the close combat power and grants fnp to the librarian and squad.

I have used all BA hq but Mepheston so far. The only characters I still field are Corbulo (Elite) and Dante once in a while.

In 5th I fielded non DC Captain Tycho, Lemartes and the Sanguinar. Haven't given them a go this edition yet. Bright side to the Sangmonster IF I recall correctly is that he gives +1 attack, has eternal warrior and a low armor save and invuln. Can't recall the details at the moment.

Yeah, the Sanguinor looks pretty awesome, but if he can't join a unit of Sanguinary Guard, it seems dumb to me. Then he's got to somehow make it to the fight in time to give that +1 attack to everybody. He also "bonuses" a Sergeant and can try to assassinate an enemy character, which are both super fluffy and cool, but he seems like more of a support HQ than your main one, so I wouldn't be able to take him unless I was playing a high points game.

Thanks for the comment on Corbulo--his protecting the Librarian and the Librarian protecting him in turn sounds good. How do those rules work these days--one save (armor, invul, or cover) and then FNP? So, they could get a double save? I roll a lot of "1"s...

Corbs get his cover/armor save then his 2+ FNP if eligible. I use him in the following way. If I'm dropping into an enemy zone, I'll make him the closest model to an enemy unit that relies on torrent that can't get through his FNP. He's a great wound sponge, and if he actually takes a wound, you can start using LoS. Him with a shield of sanguinius libby make the Sternguard non-trivial to shoot to death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Sanguinor and Mephiston are single man units in and of themselves since they lack the "independent character" special rule. Not such a tragedy for T6 Mephiston, but for T4 Sanguinor, it makes him a joke of sorts for 275.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd also like to add that I don't want a codex that is just super broken. That's not any fun. All I ask is that I get what I pay for in a unit. If a unit is nasty like the Sternguard, yes they should cost extra. If a character is potent like Abbadon, he should be expensive. But the BA characters are absolute jokes for their price tags. Just jokes. It's very frustrating, because I like the BA special characters and I'd like to use them sometimes. But it's just too painful on the playability end.

Martel732 wrote:
Corbs get his cover/armor save then his 2+ FNP if eligible. I use him in the following way. If I'm dropping into an enemy zone, I'll make him the closest model to an enemy unit that relies on torrent that can't get through his FNP. He's a great wound sponge, and if he actually takes a wound, you can start using LoS. Him with a shield of sanguinius libby make the Sternguard non-trivial to shoot to death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Sanguinor and Mephiston are single man units in and of themselves since they lack the "independent character" special rule. Not such a tragedy for T6 Mephiston, but for T4 Sanguinor, it makes him a joke of sorts for 275.

Cool. Thanks! Putting him in the front is something I would definitely not have done--I assume you keep the librarian at the back? The LoS is also an excellent tactic. Does his extra fighting ability (Heaven's Teeth or whatever) ever come into play? Does this unit usually all die eventually? If so, that's probably okay, if you use the Fast tank strategy you have written about.

I'd love to see a sample list, actually, if you're willing to share it. I figure you have different (and possibly far more) actual models than I do, but it might give me an idea of what I need to get if I want to get this force playable again.

Thanks for the clarification on the Sanguinor and Mephiston. Are the "IC" classifications in the back of the new rulebook? (that makes sense, I just haven't looked yet).

Whether a character is an IC or not is listed in the codex. You'll see that Dante and regular Tycho are ICs, but Mephiston and Sanguinor are not.

Yeah, I protect the libby, since he's no better protected than a mook. Somtimes I get some good shots in with Heaven's Teeth. Corbs is a great guy to suck up challenges from mid-tier characters that can't get through his FNP.

Unfortunately, there's nothing magical about my lists. My mech lists don't usually employ the sternguard. The Sternguard are usually in my jumper/drop pod list. Here's the jist:

ASMs with jump packs, shield of sanguinius libby, and biker priest with MM attacks bikes are the forces on the table.

Sternguards with corbs and libby are in one drop pod. Tac squad with plasma in another drop pod. Fragnought in another drop pod.

In bigger games, I put on locator beacons and beam in terminators. This list tries to basically ignore fliers and overrun troops on the ground. Sometimes it seems brokenly good. Sometimes it looks stupid. Same as every other BA TAC list, imo.

To answer your question, I work very hard to keep the sterguard alive. The more turns that special ammo fires, the better. Plus, it's not like BA can afford to throw away bodies.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Putting him in the front is something I would definitely not have done.

Well, now you've learned another new 6th edition trick. ;-)

A tough character who has better armor saves and special rules like FNP is often a good choice to have up front, tanking shots from units that shoot a lot. I used it to disgustingly good effect with my SoB a week ago, for example. St Celestine (2+ armor, 4+ Inv) and nine Seraphim (3+ armor, 6+ rerollable Inv), the character out in front and in the sights of two huge mobs of Horrors (one with a Herald of Tzeentch) and two groups of three Flamers each. The daemons caused a horrible amount of wounds but Celestine tanked it, taking one wound in the process. This allowed me to put the big smackdown on the daemons when my turn came around.

Spetulhu wrote:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Putting him in the front is something I would definitely not have done.

Well, now you've learned another new 6th edition trick. ;-)

A tough character who has better armor saves and special rules like FNP is often a good choice to have up front, tanking shots from units that shoot a lot. I used it to disgustingly good effect with my SoB a week ago, for example. St Celestine (2+ armor, 4+ Inv) and nine Seraphim (3+ armor, 6+ rerollable Inv), the character out in front and in the sights of two huge mobs of Horrors (one with a Herald of Tzeentch) and two groups of three Flamers each. The daemons caused a horrible amount of wounds but Celestine tanked it, taking one wound in the process. This allowed me to put the big smackdown on the daemons when my turn came around.

Blammo! Sisters of Battle are actually one of the few armies I have played--them teamed with GK. Pretty scary; made me feel like a Heretic, somehow. Must be a guilty conscience. Yeah, I hear Martel about not wanting a broken codex--I feel the same way. It DOES just suck to get excited about the Fluff and how cool the models look and to spend all that time painting them or converting them or whatever, and then to just see them die like dogs in games... Not fulfilling. I really appreciate the advice. I live an hour's drive through traffic to the only place to play here in Jakarta, and making that trip and getting my butt handed to me in 20 minutes is not fun. So, I have been working really hard to retool my BA forces before going back down there. I really appreciate the tactics and advice.

Unfortunately, BA characters have a PhD in dying like dogs. There are other characters in other books with the same problems, but we have a whole codex of them now.

Martel732 wrote:
Whether a character is an IC or not is listed in the codex. You'll see that Dante and regular Tycho are ICs, but Mephiston and Sanguinor are not.

Yeah, I protect the libby, since he's no better protected than a mook. Somtimes I get some good shots in with Heaven's Teeth. Corbs is a great guy to suck up challenges from mid-tier characters that can't get through his FNP.

Unfortunately, there's nothing magical about my lists. My mech lists don't usually employ the sternguard. The Sternguard are usually in my jumper/drop pod list. Here's the jist:

ASMs with jump packs, shield of sanguinius libby, and biker priest with MM attacks bikes are the forces on the table.

Sternguards with corbs and libby are in one drop pod. Tac squad with plasma in another drop pod. Fragnought in another drop pod.

In bigger games, I put on locator beacons and beam in terminators. This list tries to basically ignore fliers and overrun troops on the ground. Sometimes it seems brokenly good. Sometimes it looks stupid. Same as every other BA TAC list, imo.

To answer your question, I work very hard to keep the sterguard alive. The more turns that special ammo fires, the better. Plus, it's not like BA can afford to throw away bodies.

Regarding the Sternguard, that is cool. It fits with my general philosophy too, of not using Space Marines (any type) as cannon fodder. I guess reading cheesy GW novels has made me believe that they should all be "worth 20 normal men" and stuff, so I hate seeing them die like dogs. (A lot of that going around...)

Thanks a ton for sharing your list! It is interesting to see your list, as it is so different from what I actually physically have. I only have 5 ASMs with Jump Packs (I have 10 DC with Jump Packs that are good at dying like dogs though) and I really need to put together and paint the 10 more I have. Do you run any specialist weapons on them? I was intrigued to see that you had them as I have read you say that you think Jump Packs are not all that great, though a squad of 5 is only 115 points or something, which is not that expensive. I also just don't physically have any drop pods yet, or any bikes, so there are just more things I need to get. Man, it takes me a while to get stuff painted up, too--I have been working on CC Terminators (now finished), a second Devastator squad (I know you disapprove, especially since I only have a couple PCs and LCs), and my land Raider (now a Crusader) ever since my last BA butt kicking about a month ago. Anyway, more stuff to do this summer. Good thing I love this hobby too.

I love the Fragnought, and am thinking of going Dreadnought heavy one game, just to try it out--I have four of the models: one old school MM one, one Blendernought, and two Furiosos (one Frag and one regular). See what happens.

Anyway, lots more tactics to try, and it encourages me that you take the "long view" in regards to the game and Codices. I feel the same about Fantasy, and have been waiting for a new Dwarfs book for...5 years now? It'll come someday. And until then, I will just keep fighting, and trying to enjoy the whole process.

Strictly speaking the BA ASM are not that fantastic in 6th. But they are 20 scoring bodies and my 1750 version of that list has two regular priests out with them and the attack bikes. Generally, one squad has meltas and one has flamers. Remember, you've got MM attack bikes too and meltas on the sternguard.

Jump packs as a locomotive method are quite nice. The squad never stops moving 12". Unfortunately, the ASM themselves are a bit anemic in HTH compared to 5th. There is a reason vanilla lists don't use ASM.

Remember one of the tricks in this is the libby with the sternguard can potentially give shield of sanguinius to the fragnought as well depending upon spacing. AV 13 with 5+ cover can be hard to get rid of. The tactical squad can also be dropped within his radius, particularly if the list included the locator beacons for terminators.

Martel732 wrote:
Unfortunately, BA characters have a PhD in dying like dogs. There are other characters in other books with the same problems, but we have a whole codex of them now.

+1 for basically every Space Wolves named character... Contrary to popular belief, I'd love to run something other than a Rune Priest every once in a while.

BA has the coolest characters, its why I started playing BA. Mephsiton. Simple enough, I mean the guy punched; "bear handed", a hole through an ork. How awesome is that?

Pretty damned if you asked me.

The BA-characters are cool, but it seems that Matt Ward has put more hours on their fluff than on how they actually work on field.

I mean, all of them have some awesome little tricks, but I'm not sure if those tricks are worth the usual 200-300p for one character. Only named characters worth their points are IMO Seth, Tycho and Corbulo (and in some games Astorath)

Only brother corb has my respect in BA, that guy soaks up more fire and is still standing at the end. Its just awesome that he has 2W.

I'm not a massive fan of Corbulo. To be effective, he has to sit at the front of the unit where he's open to krak, melta and lascannons. I'll gladly throw a few LC shots or ML shots at the Corbulo unit. He's there for a reason, those shots won't be wasted.

But isn't he an IC? He gets a 2+ LOS on any shots he doesn't want to tank. (IE those that would double him out).


Corbs is good. Mehpeston is expensive but still viable if used correctly. And..... hmmm thats all I like other than the libbys from the book.

Yeah he does, but then he's not getting the 2+ FNP that he was brought for. He's fairly useless if you're just passing around wounds.
Even if he does LOS off the wounds, most lists I bring at least have easily over 6 Str:8+ Ap:3 or better shots I can throw at the sqaud. Not to mention blast markers.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Yeah he does, but then he's not getting the 2+ FNP that he was brought for. He's fairly useless if you're just passing around wounds.
Even if he does LOS off the wounds, most lists I bring at least have easily over 6 Str:8+ Ap:3 or better shots I can throw at the sqaud. Not to mention blast markers.

Oh I get what you are saying, you are talking about removing him as a sheild by making him LoS, then he is not tanking at all. Its not a bad idea but then you are shooting all your heavys at one squad for ~4 kills or sternguard. Still worth the points if you are podding in IMO.

Lemartes is still worthwhile. Try a small DC squad with power lances on a couple. TBH you don't even need the squad to have pump packs if you want them cheap, he can still walk.

Corbulo and Tycho are the way to go now. I like DC Tycho as well but he has to be played well.

The Librarian and Sternguard option was pointed out. Why not try putting him with plasma gun Honour Guard? Add the 'Unleash Rage' and 'Shield' powers and they can re-roll Get's Hot and those pesky ones to wound. They're 25pts more than Sternguard on foot but get a Priest included. Then it's your choice of flavour: jump packs or drop pod.

Hmmmm, there's a thought.

Librarian+Honor guard with plasma or melta (if they can take those) Put that in a drop pod and you have a nasty surprise for someone.

Can you take psy powers from the codex and the rule book? For example taking SOS (Shield of Sang) and maybe another power from Divination?

Tis an all or nothing affair with pre 6th codex's iirc.

You can't mix powers. Anyway, Sternguard is a nastier visitor than the honor guard imo.

Also, you have to roll for powers, no? So you're not guaranteed which powers you get? Or am I getting that wrong?

Codex powers are chosen. Core rule book powers are rolled randomly, but you can swap one roll out for the primaris power.

So...tell me about Divination then. Is the Primaris power beneficial or are you (figuratively) rolling a die there? The "sure thing" of Codex powers seems like it would be the better bet.

Are they changing this with new Codices too, as they come out? Like the new Dark Angels--do they roll?

The divination primaris power is very good, as it allows rerolls to hit in both shooting and hand to hand combat. However, the two real gems are the 4++ save power and the one that allows counter attack and full BS on overwatch. All of them are useful except for the self-buff one. I merely switch that out for primaris if I roll it.

Martel732 wrote:
The divination primaris power is very good, as it allows rerolls to hit in both shooting and hand to hand combat. However, the two real gems are the 4++ save power and the one that allows counter attack and full BS on overwatch. All of them are useful except for the self-buff one. I merely switch that out for primaris if I roll it.

Thanks for the guidance! Do you find it worthwhile to upgrade your Librarian HQ to an Epistolary to get a 3rd power? The points cost is not that great, and trying to get one of the other really great powers seems worth it to me.