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I played a 1000 point game against a necron-playing friend of mine.

Ghost Arks...seriusly... What..the feth.

3 Open-topped ghost arks with 10 warriors in it. Turn 1: 2 dead Veteran squads. Turn 2: 3 Dead Leeman Russes. He didnt even get to bring in his fliers before I got tabled. I managed to take off 1 of the shields and a hull point or two.

I'm kind of new, so I may not play the best list, but the Gauss weapon glancing thing is just insane.

Any counters when playing IG?

Hope I am not whining too much

Lascannons. Those things only move 6" a turn, so deploy at the edge of the map and destroy those quantum shields.

Focus fire. Don't stop shooting until it's destroyed - otherwise it can still shoot AND replenish warriors.

dnptan wrote:
Lascannons. Those things only move 6" a turn, so deploy at the edge of the map and destroy those quantum shields.

Focus fire. Don't stop shooting until it's destroyed - otherwise it can still shoot AND replenish warriors.

Can't they move at Cruising Speed aka 12" (and move Flat out if they wanted to)?

3 units of 10 Warriors in Ghost Arks is 735 points alone. There's no way he could field more than 1 flyer.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
3 units of 10 Warriors in Ghost Arks is 735 points alone. There's no way he could field more than 1 flyer.

Hmm maybe I did only have 1 flier. Thoes things are still un-killable though.

Ghost Arks can move 12" if they want to snap-fire all their guns (including the Warriors shooting from the inside). To be effective, they can only move 6" (so a 30" effective range). That gives a Lascannon a whole lot of room to work with.

Manticores work wonders against Quantum Shielded Necron vehicles (Arks, Barges...everything but the Flyers). AV13 means nothing to S10 ordnance. Skimmers' Jink saves mean nothing to barrage. They're also handy for doubling out Wraiths and blowing 4+sv Warriors off the table. And you only really need one. Necrons have such a short effective range on the first 3 turns that it should be easy to shoot-shoot-shoot until it runs out of missiles.

Meltavets in a Vendetta or even a Chimera will also make quick work of a Ghost Ark. Even with glancing Gauss, Necrons should really struggle against massed AV12 and Guard can present a whole lot of it. At the same time, Necrons will struggle against massed infantry. Most Necron lists over-commit on Tesla Destructors...they might bring a whole lot of S7, but that doesn't really bother 50+ Guardsmen. Point being: there are multiple approaches by which you can make life as hard for the Necrons as they're making it for you.

You might not have had a chance to see the Night Scythes in action, but when they decide to show up, Vendettas will be your best answer.

Whatever you do, just don't buy into the hype that Necrons are unbeatable. They are a hard nut to crack, but IG are very well poised to do it.

Hi I play against a 2k point list what sounds pretty much the same as you friend's.

Ghost arks are a massive pain and they can do a fair bit of shooting and gauss will end a vehicle or 2 (but that's it), but IG can bring more of everything. You will outnumber him by a substantial amount and it's important to make some redundancy, if you can't suffer the loss of something it probably shouldn't be there.

You can pop melta vets in chimeras and they'll really ruin his day. Or the other idea which will probably be more effective (you don't have to get close) is to take lascannons and hold him at arms length.

Also do what others have said, make sure you kill a whole unit. The 1 guy you don't kill could be a loss of the game for you.

But yes Necrons are not unbeatable, they're hard, like a giant gobstopper. Keep at it and it will crack.

Good Luck.

Thanks for the replies people!

 whigwam wrote:
Skimmers' Jink saves mean nothing to barrage.

I thought that barrage only ment that the shot came from the direction of the hole in the blast template, does it negate cover saves alltogehter?

 whigwam wrote:
. Even with glancing Gauss, Necrons should really struggle against massed AV12

AV means nothing to Necrons as they always glance on a 6 on the to-hit die anyway?

Ah, damn, you're right on Barrage. Still, only one hit needs to get through. And if you're able to go first and hit them turn 1 (before they move)...no cover!

Gauss will glance on 6's, but that just means you have to limit the amount of shots they'll put into you. An Ark with 10 Warriors will average 3.33 glances at Rapid Fire range. But how often are you getting hit at Rapid Fire range? Probably not a whole lot unless it's late in the game (when your shooting should've also killed off much of their army, further limiting their shooting). So for those first few turns, each Ark should be putting out 1.66 glances at best (assuming you're not getting cover -- which you should be). Until those fliers come out, that's maybe one dead vehicle a turn. And that's ALL their shooting going into you. No Flayers left for anti-infantry, no anti-flyer, nada. Not too scary compared to what other armies can do shooting-wise.

The reason AV12 is effective against Necrons is that many of Necron lists rely fully on S7 Tesla Destructors for anti-armor, and S7 falters somewhat against massed AV12. Your opponent seems to have only one Destructor for now...but give him time, he'll come around.

FunJohn wrote:
Thanks for the replies people!

 whigwam wrote:
Skimmers' Jink saves mean nothing to barrage.

I thought that barrage only ment that the shot came from the direction of the hole in the blast template, does it negate cover saves alltogehter?

 whigwam wrote:
. Even with glancing Gauss, Necrons should really struggle against massed AV12

AV means nothing to Necrons as they always glance on a 6 on the to-hit die anyway?

Just to clarify, it's a 6 on the Penetration roll, NOT to hit. And yes, Skimmers do get Jink saves vs. Barrages, but its only a 5+, so a Manticore is sill a great choice!

FunJohn wrote:

 whigwam wrote:
Skimmers' Jink saves mean nothing to barrage.

I thought that barrage only ment that the shot came from the direction of the hole in the blast template, does it negate cover saves alltogehter?

No, but sometimes people think it does. Where they got the idea I can't guess.

As for the game, I've found the most enjoyable for me is to not play Necrons.

If you really have to then focus - on your objectives and one of his units at a time. Lascannons is a good way to take out his vehicles, as is deepstriking suicide melta veterans. Once he can't move except by walking focus, focus, focus down the warriors. If all the basic guys go down they can't roll to resurrect anymore, even if there's a joined character (the character gets his Ever-Living anyway but the squad is gone). And remember the Ghost Arks have fixed side-mounted weapons - they can only shoot one side at you and will have to have that side in your general direction for it. You should also make sure to have cover saves for anything important in your army - no way should someone without the devil's luck take out three Leman Russ tanks in one turn with glancing hits.

 jifel wrote:

FunJohn wrote:
Thanks for the replies people!

 whigwam wrote:
Skimmers' Jink saves mean nothing to barrage.

I thought that barrage only ment that the shot came from the direction of the hole in the blast template, does it negate cover saves alltogehter?

 whigwam wrote:
. Even with glancing Gauss, Necrons should really struggle against massed AV12

AV means nothing to Necrons as they always glance on a 6 on the to-hit die anyway?

Just to clarify, it's a 6 on the Penetration roll, NOT to hit. And yes, Skimmers do get Jink saves vs. Barrages, but its only a 5+, so a Manticore is sill a great choice!

Wow wait, what? He told me Necrons just need a 6 on the TO-HIT roll in order to penetrate, and as such he skips the whole penetration roll thing.

False. The Armor Penetration roll needs to be a 6 for the Gauss special rule to take effect. Maybe you should have a look at the Necron Codex before your next game, sounds like your opponent may not be too clear on some of the special rules in there.

The Gauss special rule used to work on the hit roll in the last codex (or possibly the one before that). Its definitly on the to wound/vehicle damage roll now. The Tesla special rule uses the to hit roll, which could be another source of confusion.

PrinceOfMadness wrote:
False. The Armor Penetration roll needs to be a 6 for the Gauss special rule to take effect. Maybe you should have a look at the Necron Codex before your next game, sounds like your opponent may not be too clear on some of the special rules in there.

Oh sweet potato jesus no wonder I was getting my ass kicked.

I think this solved my problem! Can't win against cheating opponents Thanks for the other tips though, I'll be sure to look into them!

One last thing: If his ever-living lord with an ord is attached to a unit, and the entire unit (including lord) dies, can he then first roll ever-living and get the lord up and start rolling for the dead unit on +4?

FunJohn wrote:

PrinceOfMadness wrote:
False. The Armor Penetration roll needs to be a 6 for the Gauss special rule to take effect. Maybe you should have a look at the Necron Codex before your next game, sounds like your opponent may not be too clear on some of the special rules in there.

I think this solved my problem! Can't win against cheating opponents Thanks for the other tips though, I'll be sure to look into them!

One last thing: If his ever-living lord with an ord is attached to a unit, and the entire unit (including lord) dies, can he then first roll ever-living and get the lord up and start rolling for the dead unit on +4?

He may not necessarily be cheating, just misunderstanding the rules. This is more common than you'd think.

For your question: no, he cannot. There must be at least one Necron warrior remaining for the rest of the unit to benefit from Reanimation Protocols. He can, however, still roll Ever-Living for the attached lord (on a 4+).

FunJohn wrote:
Can't win against cheating opponents

One last thing: If his ever-living lord with an ord is attached to a unit, and the entire unit (including lord) dies, can he then first roll ever-living and get the lord up and start rolling for the dead unit on +4?

Don't call it cheating if he's just as new as you - he may well be confused on how things work. ;-)

No, a wiped-out unit can't come back even if an attached character stands back up. But if even one warrior is up then you can indeed ress the Lord first and then benefit from his Orb for the rest of the squad.

Not that your opponent had an Orb in 1000 points... the three Warrior squads with Arks left just enough points for a bare-bones Overlord and a Doom Scythe flyer.

How Ever-living and Reanimation protocols are worded, you can indeed reanimate a attached court member before attempting to reanimate the squad. Since the court member was part of the squad, if he is living at the beginning of the reanimation protocol trigger, you can attempt bring the rest of the unit up. Both abilities are at end of turn and the controlling player always chooses which he wants to activate first. However, if the court member does not come up, the unit cannot attempt as there is no one living.

While just warriors in a ark isnt bad, when he starts adding court members it can be. Voltaic staff cryptek will rip vehicles to shreds (5 man warrior squad+voltaic is ~3.6 Hull points if i remember). They can only move 6 in the ark and fire normally though, so often night scythes are used to bring those units in.

Honestly, if your friend played at all with the 4th codex it is very likely he was not familiar with the change to gauss.

I would agree with one of the other posters though, its better not to play against necrons i have found. Simply too much ward cheese smashed into one codex.

 zephoid wrote:


I would agree with one of the other posters though, its better not to play against necrons i have found. Simply too much ward cheese smashed into one codex.

You know - you really can't buy into the "They're too hard! They are overpowered!" cries too long. They are beatable and most of our units do have plenty of counters that can be taken. The issue I see as a Necron player is that most people are stuck up using the same few units for their armies that are cited as being awesome then they recoil in confusion when the Necron roll over them.

Necron don't play with traditional tactics. Don't try to outshoot them unless you've got some serious firepower - they'll just stand back up. Tie up their units in melee combat and force them to flee and they'll be gone. Keep your ranged units 24-30 inches away as almost all the threats a Necron player will bring only have a 24 inch range. Wraiths? Use Psyker abilities to have them re-roll successful saves - tie them up with a weaker unit for awhile. Template weapons tend to eat up Necron as well. Did the 'Cron player bring a ton of Night Scythes? Just remember they HAVE to move 18 inches each turn - keep your units out of their firing arc and you usually don't have to worry too much about what's inside of the Scythe as most players just keep 5 Warriors inside. The worst you'll usually find is a Despairtek squad which will flamer template you and wound on a 2+.

The army just works with great synergy and there are a few key units that really put on the hurt to the enemy. Most people I play will just march straight at me and shoot allowing me to blow them to smithereens. Play the objective and force LD tests on anything you can as it will totally negate Re-Animation protocols. Even with LD 10 on everything they will still run.

zephoid wrote:Honestly, if your friend played at all with the 4th codex it is very likely he was not familiar with the change to gauss.

The last Necron book was in 3rd, and To Hit rolls didn't Glance then either.

 zephoid wrote:
How Ever-living and Reanimation protocols are worded, you can indeed reanimate a attached court member before attempting to reanimate the squad. Since the court member was part of the squad, if he is living at the beginning of the reanimation protocol trigger, you can attempt bring the rest of the unit up. Both abilities are at end of turn and the controlling player always chooses which he wants to activate first. However, if the court member does not come up, the unit cannot attempt as there is no one living.

While just warriors in a ark isnt bad, when he starts adding court members it can be. Voltaic staff cryptek will rip vehicles to shreds (5 man warrior squad+voltaic is ~3.6 Hull points if i remember). They can only move 6 in the ark and fire normally though, so often night scythes are used to bring those units in.

Honestly, if your friend played at all with the 4th codex it is very likely he was not familiar with the change to gauss.

I would agree with one of the other posters though, its better not to play against necrons i have found. Simply too much ward cheese smashed into one codex.

Fun john just remember this important tip. When necron lords die a counter is supposed to be placed on the table and he can come back within 3" of that counter. If you killed him and his squad in combat you are allowed to consolidate. But consolidation happens before ever-living shenanigans. A model cannot be placed on the table within one inch of another model. So all you need to do is spread out to cover two inches in every direction including the counter itself. That way when he tries to come back within 3" of the counter he auto dies since he cant do it without being within one inch of a model. Aka no more overlord.

Shows you how much i played 3rd crons. In ~5 years of playing, i think i played the old codex twice. Both as nids, so i didnt see any gauss glancing.

Its all nice to say just use a psyker to make them reroll saves, but thats a psychic power that you have to roll for. In addition, eldar NEED their codex powers to function as a codex, so trading is hard if ever possible. Necrons ARE overpowered because they do things better and cheaper in so many areas than almost any other codex. They have melee down pretty darn well with wraiths and MSS being able to deal with both number of units and quality of units. They have mid ranged shooting down as good as any codex except GK due to the quantity of both AT and anti-horde shooting they put out at 24". They also have the ability to combat long range threats in both the scythe variants. I dont care about the 5 warriors inside as much as i care about the voltaic cryptek that averages a dead vehicle if he and those 5 warriors drop within 12. Conveniently, they have a range of 42" the turn they come on. Then throw in the destructor on the scythe (which is also conveniently the strongest snap firing weapon in the game) and they put a hell of a lot of solutions into cheap packages. While armies dont take all of the above, the potential to counter any threat combined with the cheap cost of doing so makes the army one of the hardest to beat if played well.

Are they beatable? yes. However if equally skilled players on both sides of the table play any army except nids (nids are the hard counter to crons), crons will win 8 out of 10 times. Ward made sure to take advantage of as many of the changes in 6th as possible (fliers, challenges, changing wraiths to jump inf, cost effective smash on spyders, hull points+gauss, ect). Thats why i say to not play against them if possible.

Psyker Battle Squad works well against crons.

If I'm playing it right, If they're falling back, they don't get re-animation.

 zephoid wrote:

Are they beatable? yes. However if equally skilled players on both sides of the table play any army except nids (nids are the hard counter to crons),

would you elaborate please?
I have a friend that is new to 40k and just bought a used nids army. He is getting rather frustrated since he has a very hard time beating my crons. even when vs another new friend who does not have his own army and uses my crons. I do not play nids and unfortunately do not live in an area with a flgs so our games are just friendly in the living room type so my only experience VS nids are from this new player. as such I am unable to offer him much advice. what makes nids a hard counter for crons?

5 Tesla Destructors (3 Barge, 2 Scythe) average 9 glances against av12. Add in some s6 Tesla Cannons and Voltaic Staves, and Mech Guard (mass av12) is looking awfully poor.

I love seeing Mech Guard across the table from me when I'm playing Crons. Just remember not to bunch up your Barges as Manticores CAN be deadly. Moving 12in and snapfiring is legit if you need the range.

Also, massed s5, which Crons have plenty of, can deal with Guard infantry just fine unless you're talking 4++ inv blobs.

To the OP: Your best bet is Vendettas and Manticores. Take out the quantum shielding, be mindful of your range advantage, and protect your side armour.

I just returned from playing against a Guard/Daemon list at 1850.

I took...

DLord w/Scythe, Weave, MSS + 6 Wraiths +2 WC
DLord w/Scythe, Weave, MSS + 6 Wraiths +1 WC
10 Scarabs
3x A. Barges
4x NS with 5 Warriors each

He had - not a guard player so bear with me...

50~ or so Guardsman in a blob of 20 and one of 30
2-3 Platoon Command Squad
1 Commander Squad
Master of Ordinance, Master of the Fleet
Marbo
Manticore
Vendetta
LR Demolisher
LR Vanquisher
Lord of Change
3 Nurglings
ADL with Quad Gun

It was Hammer and Anvil deployment. Not enough LoS to block out Wraiths and Barges but Scarabs were fine.

Turn 1 - He goes first, blows away 3 Wraiths total (2 + 1 from another Squad). Immobilizes an A. Barge about 24` from my table edge - rendered useless for the rest of the game. Me? I charge my Wraiths, DLords, and Scarabs up the field but they are not in charge range.

Turn 2 - Pew pew pew... more Wraiths dead. He gets first blood on my Scarabs by focusing almost all of his fire at them. Vector Strike from his FMC also takes down 3 bases in one move.

Turn 3 - I finally engage with 1 DLord and 2 Wraiths. My other DLord and single Wraith fail their charge distance over the ADL.

Turn 4 - Death... everything... dies...

Long story short, we were playing a 5 objective game (3pts each) with secondaries and I got totally smashed. Three objectives in his backfield and two in mine. His ability to re-roll failed saves that he cast from the FMC utterly shredded the Wraiths as did the sheer number of STR 8 shots that instant-killed my Wraiths. In retrospect I should have used my DLord as a wall - but he also had a decent number of AP2 fire that would have eaten my DLord. Long field deployment also means it took me until turn 3 to finally get my Wraiths into CC. One of his characters also gave me a -1 to my Reinforcement rolls which only allowed me 1 Night Scythe (promptly shot down with interceptor, pen, explodes) and then the other 3 coming on on turn 4.

Utterly trashed and thrown out. I was almost tabled which for me is something entirely new. Necron are surely not unbeatable.

Necron aren't unbeatable, but a lot of it depends on deployment

hippesthippo wrote:5 Tesla Destructors (3 Barge, 2 Scythe) average 9 glances against av12. Add in some s6 Tesla Cannons and Voltaic Staves, and Mech Guard (mass av12) is looking awfully poor.

I love seeing Mech Guard across the table from me when I'm playing Crons. Just remember not to bunch up your Barges as Manticores CAN be deadly. Moving 12in and snapfiring is legit if you need the range.

The Barges won't get to shoot until after the Manticore and Lascannons have hit them a few times, and they'll probably have to Snapfire and/or shoot through cover for the first volley (unless the IG player moves into their effective 30" range, and into the open, for some reason). Every game I've played Necrons vs. Guard, I'm down a Barge turn 1. 9 glances a turn seems a very optimistic assumption.

Usually on turn 2, with Scythes and Staves on board and Barges moved up, I see at least 3 av12 hulls disappear.

I guess I just don't understand your av12 argument. Tesla Destructors are tailored made for wrecking light vehicles and are mounted on platforms both mobile enough to get side shots and capable of dropping melta with pinpoint accuracy.

Barges (and all Necrons) are short range, most IG anti-tank (and most IG) is long range. Flyer-heavy Necron lists begin with a weak ground presence, IG has a strong first turn alpha strike wherein they can pick on Barges, Wraiths, or what-have-you. When Vendettas arrive, they can paste Scythes in a dogfight, and can also drop pinpoint (actual) Melta wherever they like. I don't think it's a hard counter or anything, but IG's AV12 and S9-10 should hang with Necron's AV13 and S7 pretty well if played right.

Vendetta droppings are hardly pinpoint. Calling Necron shooting short ranged is short changing their mobility, though Guard does have the upperhand in ranged shooting for sure, and can lead to a mean alpha strike, but nobody does the beta strike better than Necrons. The lack of ground presence for Necrons can easily be shored up with allies. Scythes/Barges can just as easily paste Vendettas as vice versa, just depends on who goes first/who knows how to deploy properly.

Yes, a proper Guard army can give Necrons a good fight, though mission variables can have a huge role in swinging things either way. The durability of AV12 hulls just aren't the main reason why.

In a game of rock paper scissors mech/semi-mech loses to flyers 9 out of 10 times. There's a reason those armies have lost popularity, and it isn't first blood.