Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ailaros wrote:
Right, meanwhile, the Vendetta wasn't powerful enough, so they decided to make a version that gains vector dancer, strafing run, and a twin-linked punisher cannon.

Don't blame FW for that, blame GW for making the Vendetta so stupidly overpowered that the Vulture had to be that good just to have a chance of competing with it. Since the 5th edition IG codex the Vulture received a new boost every time it was reprinted, and it just finally got to the point where people are seriously considering taking one instead of a Vendetta for anything but fluff reasons.

while eldar get nothing more than corsairs and a few apocalypse vehicles

Lol? Eldar get amazing units, better than pretty much anything in the codex (though that's not saying much given how obsolete the codex is). Warp Hunters are the default heavy support choice, Hornets are what Vypers wish they could be, the FW War Walker can be taken as troops to free up heavy support slots, and the flyers are both really good (and the only AA Eldar have access to). TBH Eldar get more out of FW than any other army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:
I blame slick loaders. That upgrade was abused to hell, and for a long time the armoured company list was the only FW list.

Of course that was a 3rd edition relic from the days of 300 point LRBTs, so the lesson here should have been "don't allow lists from multiple editions ago", not "FW lists are broken".

Very mixed around here. Not allowed in tournaments locally but for casual play it ranges from no problem to no way. The best way for Forge World to become more widely accepted would be for the rules and models to become more widely available.

The Chaos dwarf list in Throne of Tamurakan did not help matters because it has some terribly broken rules and so Forgeworld 40k kind of suffers guilt by association.

I know some people are of the opinion that Forgeworld rules are part of the "regular" 40k gaming experience. However, that is just not the reality of the situation. Every game you play with someone is by mutual consent and while I have never known people to refuse to play against the latest codex, many people wont play against FW rules. I personally would not play against the Chaos Dwarf list, its too broken and because it is not part of the main rules I wouldnt feel bad about declining the game. For 40k, I would want to look at the rules first but in all likelihood I probably wouldnt object. On the other hand I would never demand to look at a GW codex before deciding whether or not to play against it.

Chaos Dwarves are far from broken, they do have rather sucky internal balance. As in their infantry is rather lame and overpriced but they have good warmachines.

They also have some matchups where they are a hard counter. IE: Ogres hate magma cannons.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Chaos Dwarves are far from broken, they do have rather sucky internal balance. As in their infantry is rather lame and overpriced but they have good warmachines.

They also have some matchups where they are a hard counter. IE: Ogres hate magma cannons.

The big Kdai demon can practically destroy some armies single handed.

And it can be kited away due to frenzy by any competent general. 2 kiting units can keep the K'dai out of the battle for all the meaningful combat phases.

After turn 5 rolls around its not going to do much.

And any character with a cheap 2+ fire ward can also tie it up for the entire game.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And it can be kited away due to frenzy by any competent general. 2 kiting units can keep the K'dai out of the battle for all the meaningful combat phases.

After turn 5 rolls around its not going to do much.

And any character with a cheap 2+ fire ward can also tie it up for the entire game.

Frenzy is not the kiting bait it used to be because you test for ld and get rerolls from a bsb. Anyway we should probably take this debate to the fantasy section.

Here we have no problems with the "40K approved units".

I play Eldar so I do use lots of FW to compensate for my aging codex. Does not mean I win everytime. My stuff is still very expensive. Army is still T3.

Lots of complaints against FW comes from the fact that the rules are misunderstood or mixed from old iteration to new ones.

Can someone make totally broken list with FW?
Yes

Can someone make totally broken list with a top tier codex and allies?
Yes

It's not FW, it the guy wielding the army who can either be a gentlemen or a dick.

As for being expensive...it depends how closely you look and which models.

Fire Prism/Nightspinner =$59.50 on GW Canada
Warp Hunter = $59.58 once converted into Canadian dollar PLUS it comes with the Fire Prism sprue (minus crystals) but for 8 cents more and 1 crystal on a bits store, you get a Fire Prism/NightSpinner/Warp Hunter

Does not sound like a bad deal to me.

To be completely honest I'm not reall sure what foregworld intels. I know its stuff like titans and certain types of tanks and stuff, but I don't know how you tell what belongs were or what rules belong to what. Are their special versions of codex's that show you what each thing is and what its for? How do you tell what you can buy for what army?

I know the local tourny's don't allow them though.

 wowsmash wrote:
To be completely honest I'm not reall sure what foregworld intels. I know its stuff like titans and certain types of tanks and stuff, but I don't know how you tell what belongs were or what rules belong to what. Are their special versions of codex's that show you what each thing is and what its for? How do you tell what you can buy for what army?

I know the local tourny's don't allow them though.

The Imperial Armour books have the rules for FW units. Some units are Apocalypse units like Titans, others are intended as additional units for their basic codex (e.g. Leman Russ Annihilator is just another weapon swap for a Leman Russ squadron), and there are some entire self-contained lists just as if they were their own codex (e.g. Armoured Battlegroup)

 Vaktathi wrote:

Makumba wrote:
No FW , people here dont like the fact that it makes good dex better and weaker dex dont get anything .

I can't think of a single army that doesn't get anything from Forgeworld.

tyranids , sob , chaos marine stuff .they have nothing good. all armies arent legal for tournament play here so no one buys them and if you try to use them as ally people just will veto or won't play you in normal games. I wish I could get my hand on sentry guns or take armored company as ally . It would fix my problems with helldrakes and scyths.
I know one of the shop owners here has an eldar pirates army , but it is just for display .

In ireland :
Everyone is really happy to play them in casual games and everyone loves to see the gorgeous miniatures on the battlefield

Strangely enough, 90% of the tournaments ban them completely, one authorize them completely and another authorize 1 FW choice

To be honest, most of my regular 40K opponents in the FLGS are not very tournament oriented and we tend to play in a laid-back manner with lots of people spending time on gorgeous armies instead of "I need this new broken army because I love winning at tournies"

A shame it's not embraced by more people
Of course some will abuse them, but as previously said, those people are already abusing the Codexes
The "normal" players (not overly competitive nor fluffy bunnies) will take what they love first and foremost (I run a TL-AC + 6 HK missiles on my second vulture for instance, not very efficient, but good looking)

Our tournaments don't usually allow them because a lot of the people are hobo's and have a "pay to win" mentality toward FW. Personally though, I don't find it a requirement to ask my opponent if I'm allowed to bring FW units, and visa versa. If you don't wish to play against someone, you don't wish to play against them. You still reserve that right.

I get to play with Forge World in both my gaming groups. In one group I constantly lose and in the other I have a pretty good track record.

 Ailaros wrote:
while eldar get nothing more than corsairs and a few apocalypse vehicles

I know it was touched on, but... the Corsair list is roughly divided into two sections. "What you get in Craftworld List" and "What you don't get in Craftworld List". An estimate 80% of the units can be found in both sections, with a few exceptions.

The good:
"Guardians" that are useful and that can get Jet Pack.
War Walkers as Troop (limited by "Guardian" squads)
Nightwing that is the most cost effective way of getting Bright Lances on the table. Inexplicably got buffed in Imperial Aeronautica.

The Bad:
The entire Elite section. Simply put, it relies on an out-dated codex and a somewhat decent Dark Eldar unit.
The Prince's bodyguard. Bad bad bad at a huge price.
"Guardians" can't be taken in a Craftworld list.
Shadow Spectres were poor and got turned bad. Sad, 'cause the models are lovely.

The Ugly:
The entire HQ section. The Void Dreamer is what a Warlock should be and should've been a proper psycher (he's still good, but not as a psycher, but rather for his flamer) and the Prince is based on the Autarch (which to begin with is overpriced) and then gets to pay 40-50 points for the one-shot wonder.
The Warp Hunter. A tad too good. Just a tad. Not like a certain codex flyer for a certain human army, but still, a tad too good.

So, essentially, FW dropped the ball on the HQ and the Elite section, needlessly nerfed the Spectres when they should've been buffed. Everything else is really good. Nearly everything good can be taken in a Craftworld codex and if it wasn't for the "Guardians" not being Craftworld-approved there wouldn't be any point at all in using a full on Corsair list.

Foot note: the Wasp Assault Walker is more expensive and has higher BS in an actual Corsair list. If purchased in a Craftworld list, they are as expensive as normal War Walkers and are purchased as Fast Attack as well as being piloted by regular BS3 Craftworlders. It's the only unit to suffer this treatment.

Makumba wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Makumba wrote:
No FW , people here dont like the fact that it makes good dex better and weaker dex dont get anything .

I can't think of a single army that doesn't get anything from Forgeworld.

tyranids , sob , chaos marine stuff .they have nothing good.

Sisters can take the Avenger, if I'm not mistaken.

GK don't really have much non-apoc stuff in FW either...

So, essentially, FW dropped the ball on the HQ and the Elite section, needlessly nerfed the Spectres when they should've been buffed. Everything else is really good. Nearly everything good can be taken in a Craftworld codex and if it wasn't for the "Guardians" not being Craftworld-approved there wouldn't be any point at all in using a full on Corsair list.

The problem is, FW has to deal with the current list and can't deliberately make things "Better". It's why the vendetta has barely met a challenge from FW things for the longest time because some of the stuff they have to create for is to off.

 Mahtamori wrote:
the Prince is based on the Autarch (which to begin with is overpriced) and then gets to pay 40-50 points for the one-shot wonder.

If you do CWE with Corsair allies, he's a character to go at the front of the death stars for that re-rollable 2++. He can then either make it night fighting for a turn, or drop a str 9 ap2 lance orbital barrage.
If you do corsiar allies with eldar, he's the goto hq imo (out of 2 ). Although I wouldn't expect anything else out of him.

I get to use FW in my games. I like the Wraithseer from that IA.

 daedalus wrote:
GK don't really have much non-apoc stuff in FW either...

Don't GK get Contemptors?

I'm at work, so I don't have access to my books, but Army Builder (yeah, I know) doesn't think so.

We allow FW in our FLGS, but this is mostly due to the absense of people attempting to overpower their lists.

For tournament play, the idea is a 0-1 FW datasheet for 40k/Chapter approved. That keeps the 3 Ironclad Dreads in Lucius and Interceptor weapons all over the place at bay.

Somebody else mentioned that you could take FW but cannot take two of the same item. That seems like a good idea too. It just means one of my two Nightwings wouldn't get seen...which makes me sad.

 Ailaros wrote:
My FLGS is filled with older people, as in aged 28+. It's a competitive environment, but also full of mature people, rather than testosterone-riddled teenagers and young twenty-somethings.

This means two things. Firstly, it means that FW isn't strictly banned, of course, because if people bring models that they want to play with, then whatever. If we've got a problem with whatever weird thing someone wants to do, then we're just not going to play against them if it's really so much of a deal.

The second thing is that we just don't play people that we don't want to have to put up with. This means that FW stuff is really rare (so rare, actually, that it's stuff is only brought by the couple of younger players). That's because people with laborious personalities tend to get isolated and ignored.

Of course, one could be an interesting, and pleasant person with a good attitude and also use FW stuff, or army hop, or whatever, but experience in our store and with people on the internet doesn't look very hopeful for seeing much FW on the table where I play.

As such, it's really rather happenstantial that we don't have FW around, rather than, say, because it's banned outright.

I just want to clarify this before I have a proper go at you, in case I'm misunderstanding: are you seriously trying to imply that people who buy Forgeworld are typically either young hyperactive and immature, or "laborious" TFGs?

rigeld2 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
GK don't really have much non-apoc stuff in FW either...

Don't GK get Contemptors?

No, no we don't

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
My FLGS is filled with older people, as in aged 28+. It's a competitive environment, but also full of mature people, rather than testosterone-riddled teenagers and young twenty-somethings.

This means two things. Firstly, it means that FW isn't strictly banned, of course, because if people bring models that they want to play with, then whatever. If we've got a problem with whatever weird thing someone wants to do, then we're just not going to play against them if it's really so much of a deal.

The second thing is that we just don't play people that we don't want to have to put up with. This means that FW stuff is really rare (so rare, actually, that it's stuff is only brought by the couple of younger players). That's because people with laborious personalities tend to get isolated and ignored.

Of course, one could be an interesting, and pleasant person with a good attitude and also use FW stuff, or army hop, or whatever, but experience in our store and with people on the internet doesn't look very hopeful for seeing much FW on the table where I play.

As such, it's really rather happenstantial that we don't have FW around, rather than, say, because it's banned outright.

I just want to clarify this before I have a proper go at you, in case I'm misunderstanding: are you seriously trying to imply that people who buy Forgeworld are typically either young hyperactive and immature, or "laborious" TFGs?

I think it means they're grumpy, old, and set in their ways.

Seriously though. It sounds like Ailaros has more of a problem with hyper-competitive asses, and less of a problem with Forge World. I would suggest that Forge World stuff is considerably difficult for anyone without a proper credit card (not debit card) to get a hold of, such as teenagers and younger twentysomethings.

I mean, I only got one myself three years ago, explicitly for Forge World stuff, and I'm 29.

To answer the actual original question: We have no problem with Forge World stuff nowadays. In 5th edition, most of us had a problem with it. Since 6th dropped, the game has gotten so crazy that we've found that allowing FW actually helps balance the game, especially for armies with no real AA. If it gets to be a problem, we'll consider a restriction on it, but until then, we're all good here.

Assuming the IA: Aeronautica book has the latest rules, the Punisher Vulture is over 150 pts

Edit: Its a Fast Attack choice for the IG, but I think its a HS for the Elysians

Contemptors are great. Expensive in points and $$$, but great looking models that can dole out the dakka!

I'm not sure what my group would think about it, since no-one really uses it. We had one guy who used to come in and he used a contemptor (mainly) among other things. He was a bit WAAC though.

No-one's really used any since. Personally, I have no problems with them.

 Peregrine wrote:

Lol? Eldar get amazing units, better than pretty much anything in the codex (though that's not saying much given how obsolete the codex is). Warp Hunters are the default heavy support choice, Hornets are what Vypers wish they could be, the FW War Walker can be taken as troops to free up heavy support slots, and the flyers are both really good (and the only AA Eldar have access to). TBH Eldar get more out of FW than any other army.

The Eldar also have the Firestorm for AA ability, and it is actually a solid AA unit.

But in general you are correct. The Craftworld Eldar, since the advent of IA 11, have gottten amazing units for use from FW sources. Wraithseer, Shadow Spectres, Warp Hunter, Wasp Assault Walkers, Hornets, Nightwings, Phoenix Bombers, and the Firestorm...think I got most of them at least.
None of these are game breaking, but they certainly are more reasonable and useful items for their respective slots. Eldar, with IA, become fun to play and feel more fluffy....but still aren't Top 3 armies.

No FW models allowed due to FW making a lot of terrible rules and 40k is bad enough with dem balance.

Special FW-allowed tournaments, but very rare and only have about 10-15 attendents.

And from a more subjective POV: a large percentage of FW players I do know are people I wouldn't like to play with at all.

Yodhrin wrote:I just want to clarify this before I have a proper go at you, in case I'm misunderstanding: are you seriously trying to imply that people who buy Forgeworld are typically either young hyperactive and immature, or "laborious" TFGs?

I said what I said.

You don't have to be an ass to play forgeworld stuff. You really don't. Especially not, as has been mentioned, if you play a set-piece army, rather than allying FW stuff into a regular list.

Likewise, you could be a pleasant, interesting and engaging person, and there is absolutely nothing stopping you from painting a racing stripe on your car, putting blue neon running lights underneath it, and blasting rap music or hip-hop with a 2,000W stereo. There's nothing that says that you can't be a genial fellow and wear your cap sideways and wear your pants down at your knees with a cascading series of belts to hold it all together. You are not required to adopt a terrible attitude to end every sentence with "like" or "brah", or get a rhinestone earring for that matter.

But now, let's say for a moment that there was a group of people out there who had a requirement that you be worth spending time with to be a part of the group. Just how many rhinestone earrings and 2,000 watt speakers and neon running lights would you expect to see in that group? Those things aren't banned by the group, but that doesn't mean that you're likely to see a lot of them either.

On an interesting side note, the people I've found in person who most buy forgeworld units are those least able to afford them (especially, for example, younger people who don't have money of their own). If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that things aren't going that terribly well for them, and that they want to have winning games of 40k as validation for nothing else working out, and that forgeworld, though more expensive up front, has a better return.

 Sigvatr wrote:
No FW models allowed due to FW making a lot of terrible rules and 40k is bad enough with dem balance.

Special FW-allowed tournaments, but very rare and only have about 10-15 attendents.

And from a more subjective POV: a large percentage of FW players I do know are people I wouldn't like to play with at all.

I can't think of a single army that gets enough benefit from FW rules to unbalance them beyond what Necrons currently do....

....giving you the option to explain because I am curious if I've missed something.

What regular GW army with FW items allowed suddenly becomes the super-win army that is as hard to beat as current Necron meta?

(Just a note that I do think Imperial Armoured Company is bad...but not counting 'full FW army lists' for the sake of this one.)

 Ailaros wrote:

On an interesting side note, the people I've found in person who most buy forgeworld units are those least able to afford them (especially, for example, younger people who don't have money of their own). If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that things aren't going that terribly well for them, and that they want to have winning games of 40k as validation for nothing else working out, and that forgeworld, though more expensive up front, has a better return.

Well, to a certain extent, being a younger person is a life of relative financial insecurity. Being able to afford things that are flashy and nice lets one put forth the illusion that they're doing better than they are. That could be appealing for many obvious reasons, to many people.

On the other hand, you have people who have zero other financial responsibilities, like myself. No longer a youngin', good job, no kids, paid off student loans, paid off car. I keep a roof over my head and keep next to no debt. Of course, I only have about 3 or 4 forgeworld things, all sub $200, but the point I'm (probably badly) trying to make is that your profile doesn't always entirely fit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

What regular GW army with FW items allowed suddenly becomes the super-win army that is as hard to beat as current Necron meta?

Avengers and Lightnings in HS slots for IG allow them some pretty abusive, if expensive, flyer spam.