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 Sigvatr wrote:
No FW models allowed due to FW making a lot of terrible rules and 40k is bad enough with dem balance.

As a fraction of their total offering, FW has far fewer balance issues than most GW codex books do.

I just want to clarify this before I have a proper go at you, in case I'm misunderstanding: are you seriously trying to imply that people who buy Forgeworld are typically either young hyperactive and immature, or "laborious" TFGs?

well I see it this way . I takes a special kind of SW player to order 3 saber defense platforms , considering how much they cost [in real money]. the age doesnt matter much .

I've never had anyone complain about a single unit from FW, if a person wants to build a broken list they don't need to use FW units to do that. The standard codexes allow for some horrifically broken lists, if anything the more powerful FW units are pretty solid counters to the lists TFG's tend to bring along at the moment such as the sabre defence platforms neutering flyer spam lists, which makes one wonder if they're the ones opposing FW inclusion.

Generally the people I see taking FW units are the ones who are passionate about the fluff and the hobby in general, they bring along weaker units that give their army a bit more character even if it's just one of the chapter masters or characters etc from the badab books.

 daedalus wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Makumba wrote:
No FW , people here dont like the fact that it makes good dex better and weaker dex dont get anything .

I can't think of a single army that doesn't get anything from Forgeworld.

tyranids , sob , chaos marine stuff .they have nothing good.

Sisters can take the Avenger, if I'm not mistaken.

GK don't really have much non-apoc stuff in FW either...

There's always Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex, who is an awesome counts-as Draigo.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


There's always Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex, who is an awesome counts-as Draigo.

Oh, amazing model, for sure. Counts-as Draigo is all he's really good for though.

If you have the model, and the Book for the model, by all means slap it on the table.

I have fought 9 Sabre platforms. Full Heresy armies, and everything in between. Most of the Forgeworld stuff seems more balanced than most of the GW Codeci's that are on the shelves. As long as the people know ALL the rules for their Forgeworld stuff, your A O.K. Its the people that only pay attention to the rules that work for them is when FW stuff becomes OMGZORZ.

Myself and my friends actually collect most of the books, I myself play Tyranids and there is almost nothing in there for me, but a Minotaur Chapter does look like some fun!

 Ailaros wrote:
But now, let's say for a moment that there was a group of people out there who had a requirement that you be worth spending time with to be a part of the group. Just how many rhinestone earrings and 2,000 watt speakers and neon running lights would you expect to see in that group? Those things aren't banned by the group, but that doesn't mean that you're likely to see a lot of them either.

So what you're saying is that we should judge people by superficial appearance and stereotypes instead of looking at the truth? Why risk having to change your mind when you can just write off FW players as "TFG"?

On an interesting side note, the people I've found in person who most buy forgeworld units are those least able to afford them (especially, for example, younger people who don't have money of their own). If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that things aren't going that terribly well for them, and that they want to have winning games of 40k as validation for nothing else working out, and that forgeworld, though more expensive up front, has a better return.

Sorry, but that's just stupid, and pretty insulting as well.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
(Just a note that I do think Imperial Armoured Company is bad...but not counting 'full FW army lists' for the sake of this one.)

If by "bad" you mean "little or no chance of winning unless you bring allies and defeat the whole purpose of bringing an armored company", then yes. The armored company list is terrible, Leman Russes as troops looks intimidating at first, but then you realize that 40k is an objective game and none of those tanks can claim or contest objectives. And once you take enough infantry to have a decent chance of winning an objective mission you end up with a normal codex list but with fewer Vendettas and maybe an extra LRBT.

 daedalus wrote:
Avengers and Lightnings in HS slots for IG allow them some pretty abusive, if expensive, flyer spam.

Not really. Avengers are decent but not overpowered, and adding them to a Vendetta list is certainly less powerful than taking Necron allies for the additional flyers. Meanwhile Lightnings are absolute garbage, and any player who brings one should get a few pity points added to their list to keep the game balanced.

Oh, this again.

At any rate, my group wholly embraces Forgeworld; one guy only has FW armies; Traitor Guard and Eldar Corsairs.

Most FW army lists are significantly weaker than their standard counterparts, and instead allow themed or specialized lists which either win or lose big, depending on the opponent and mission type. Their individual models aren't terribly problematic, there's one or two units which raise eyebrows, but since we've only got one TFG, and he can't afford to buy anything at this point, nothing gets abused.

I find the only people who oppose FW in my area are either too stuck in their ways to objectively analyze what FW brings to the table, or they're hardcore WAACs who can't tolerate facing anything they don't know inside and out.

Oh, this again.

yep, its a common problem, a few too many people have bees in their bonnets about this and egos seem to get involved...


where i play- its fine, providing you bring all the books you need to use the stuff, oh and if it does well expect to be trolled for lulz

common sense and politness go a long way, and anyway a lot of the stuff is sub par when compared to the normal codex stuff, you don't tend to hear whines about the armoured battle group do you?

though the anti FW brigade always make an appearance- tins hats and rifles at the ready

Art_of_war wrote:
where i play- its fine, providing you bring all the books you need to use the stuff

We settled on that approach here too when one of the guys bought a FW Land Raider variant. As long as we know what your FW thing does before the game it's fine.

And that's the way you should use the standard codex units too IMO. If you bring a new gamechanging one please say so instead of springing it as a surprise midgame.

Spetulhu wrote:

Art_of_war wrote:
where i play- its fine, providing you bring all the books you need to use the stuff

We settled on that approach here too when one of the guys bought a FW Land Raider variant. As long as we know what your FW thing does before the game it's fine.

And that's the way you should use the standard codex units too IMO. If you bring a new gamechanging one please say so instead of springing it as a surprise midgame.

Actually our meta had that too, if you have X, you must bring book X. No exceptions, not even for standard codex.

Thats how we do it.

To a normal game I need to bring my eldar codex, aeronautica, the doom of mymeara, my BRB, the BRB FAQ, The Forgeworld psyker FAQ and my Eldar FAQ.

It's getting daft now...

PredaKhaine wrote:
Thats how we do it.

To a normal game I need to bring my eldar codex, aeronautica, the doom of mymeara, my BRB, the BRB FAQ, The Forgeworld psyker FAQ and my Eldar FAQ.

It's getting daft now...

I think one of the people that had such issues, eventually brought all his books, showed em to the owner, and then pulled up all the PDF's on his laptop and had it done that way so people could read through without messing up his books.

Considering he had nearly Six Books worth of units at one point, it was a far greater godsend to read through then to find each individual unit in each book, then match it up to the FAQ's..

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Thats how we do it.

To a normal game I need to bring my eldar codex, aeronautica, the doom of mymeara, my BRB, the BRB FAQ, The Forgeworld psyker FAQ and my Eldar FAQ.

It's getting daft now...

I think one of the people that had such issues, eventually brought all his books, showed em to the owner, and then pulled up all the PDF's on his laptop and had it done that way so people could read through without messing up his books.

Considering he had nearly Six Books worth of units at one point, it was a far greater godsend to read through then to find each individual unit in each book, then match it up to the FAQ's..

I don't have a laptop. I have to make do with page marking post-its.

As long as you have the Rules on you, it's cool.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Thats how we do it.

To a normal game I need to bring my eldar codex, aeronautica, the doom of mymeara, my BRB, the BRB FAQ, The Forgeworld psyker FAQ and my Eldar FAQ.

It's getting daft now...

I think one of the people that had such issues, eventually brought all his books, showed em to the owner, and then pulled up all the PDF's on his laptop and had it done that way so people could read through without messing up his books.

Considering he had nearly Six Books worth of units at one point, it was a far greater godsend to read through then to find each individual unit in each book, then match it up to the FAQ's..

I don't have a laptop. I have to make do with page marking post-its.

Ah that sucks, would your area allow you to bring the books, but print out the PDF pages for the units you have in your book so that would be easier to cross reference while in a game?

Thats a thought.
I'd still have to take the books, though it would save looking through IA and aeronautica - At the mo I do things like use the forgeworld psyker FAQ to place mark the wraithseer.
2 birds with one stone etc.

Forge world is an issue only insofar as the rules aren't as widely available as 'stock' 40k. The general consensus among my circle is that its polite to ask your opponents permission (no-one has said no, yet) and bring the relevant rules with you, either the book itself, photocopies or a printout. if you don't bring the rules, then obviously you can't use it.

I've never encountered anything in forgeworld that has been any more overpowered than anything in the GW published materials. A nasty surprise to your current favourite necron flyer spam when the enemy brings a load of hydra platforms, certainly, but not game breaking in general by any stretch of the imagination.

We use the same rule I think most human beings use:

If it looks cool (showing some obvious effort) and evidence of its use (faq, datasheet, forgeworld book, codex) is there for opponent's review: your good.

Forge World can be expensive and I really would hate to stop someone or myself from being able to use their models in a normal game rather than wait forever for the next Apoc game.

Anyone that had to deal with resin (does not glue well), sanding (health hazard), wash off mold release (worse than normal plastic), fill: short casts, bubbles and bend back warped parts I would expect to go into a rage like a Khorn Berzerker if they were told they could not use it.

^^ I like you.

I play by the rule of cool.

If you want to throw out an awesome mini and make pew pew noises with your mouth, I'd leap at a chance to play you.

If you plonk down 9 Saber Platforms or something similar, I'm not interested.

Same goes for big tournies too. In friendly/narrative/alternative events, bring on the FW. In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.

Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.

Ah I forgot one more thing. We dont have gaming clubs here and if they are no in Warsaw , then there are no in other smaller cities too . So we play at shops and shops dont have FW stuff on sale and have an alergic reaction to anything that may lower their sells . And as the only stuff that could be used her from FW is the good stuff , the few people that have enough cash to buy the books and the models would be making new players quit . no one who is starting necron wants to hear that now his opponent has anywhere from 6 to 11 cannon shots at his flyer after it exists reservs .

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Chumbalaya wrote:
In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.

Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.

forgeworld do not, iirc, appear in any codexes.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Chumbalaya wrote:
In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.

Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.

forgeworld do not, iirc, appear in any codexes.

In FW books plenty of unit entries say "Unit X is a part of Codex Y"

Just because it's not on the pages of the original codex, doesn't merit exclusion. It's still a part of the codex. Just from a secondary source.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Chumbalaya wrote:
In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.

Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.

forgeworld do not, iirc, appear in any codexes.

Which is getting into an altogether different argument of the ridiculousness of not allowing Official GW model X simply because it does not appear in Official GW book Y but rather Official GW book Z (which then states that Official GW model X can be taken with Official GW army list A contained within Book Y).

Then there's getting into all FW units that have appeared in codex books, Valkyries, Hydras, Skyrays, Pirhanas, etc, or the units that once were general codex units and are now Forgeworld units as opposed to codex units, like Thudd Guns, Rapier Laser destroyers, Leman Russ vanquishers and exterminators and Griffons for many years, etc.

Rules are usually there to tell you what you can do.

They want to sell models and want the games to go well so there are not too many angry people saying the system is no good.

They are leaning on the FLUFF, you want some strange vehicle of death and destruction there is an app for that, I mean there is a model for that. This is a rules version of the lion laying with the lambs: most builds and alliances are viable.

I like that FW is included more and made part of the rule set. Since it is a competing division within GW it may force the primary group to be more competitive. As has been observed, they seem a little more thoughtful in the rules they produce.

Anything goes, just bring the sheet for the damn thing.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
(Just a note that I do think Imperial Armoured Company is bad...but not counting 'full FW army lists' for the sake of this one.)

If by "bad" you mean "little or no chance of winning unless you bring allies and defeat the whole purpose of bringing an armored company", then yes. The armored company list is terrible, Leman Russes as troops looks intimidating at first, but then you realize that 40k is an objective game and none of those tanks can claim or contest objectives. And once you take enough infantry to have a decent chance of winning an objective mission you end up with a normal codex list but with fewer Vendettas and maybe an extra LRBT.

I still do not find it bad because only part of 40k is Objective based. In Kill missions or missions like 'Big Guns Never Tire', they do well enough to not be considered 'bad'. They are also not that fun to play against unless you know you are playing them ahead of time.

 Peregrine wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Avengers and Lightnings in HS slots for IG allow them some pretty abusive, if expensive, flyer spam.

Not really. Avengers are decent but not overpowered, and adding them to a Vendetta list is certainly less powerful than taking Necron allies for the additional flyers. Meanwhile Lightnings are absolute garbage, and any player who brings one should get a few pity points added to their list to keep the game balanced.

Agree with you on this one. Not any more abusive than a non-FW environment with Necron Flyer spam against armies that literally can have only a Fortification with Skyfire.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
(Just a note that I do think Imperial Armoured Company is bad...but not counting 'full FW army lists' for the sake of this one.)

If by "bad" you mean "little or no chance of winning unless you bring allies and defeat the whole purpose of bringing an armored company", then yes. The armored company list is terrible, Leman Russes as troops looks intimidating at first, but then you realize that 40k is an objective game and none of those tanks can claim or contest objectives. And once you take enough infantry to have a decent chance of winning an objective mission you end up with a normal codex list but with fewer Vendettas and maybe an extra LRBT.

I still do not find it bad because only part of 40k is Objective based. In Kill missions or missions like 'Big Guns Never Tire', they do well enough to not be considered 'bad'. They are also not that fun to play against unless you know you are playing them ahead of time.

 Peregrine wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Avengers and Lightnings in HS slots for IG allow them some pretty abusive, if expensive, flyer spam.

Not really. Avengers are decent but not overpowered, and adding them to a Vendetta list is certainly less powerful than taking Necron allies for the additional flyers. Meanwhile Lightnings are absolute garbage, and any player who brings one should get a few pity points added to their list to keep the game balanced.

Agree with you on this one. Not any more abusive than a non-FW environment with Necron Flyer spam against armies that literally can have only a Fortification with Skyfire.

I'm still waiting for Forgeworld to give me better options to kill fliers.